Power Cords realy help!

shack

PolkThug wrote:

Exactly. A person 100 miles away from the test could statistically be correct 50% of the time with two power cords. People who actually got to listen couldn't do any better.

By the same token, in a test of 2 people one could be 8 for 10 and another could be 2 for 10 and the results under ABX protocall there would be no significant statistical difference. The result would be 50%.

dorokusai

faster100 wrote:

The test was for brand and for taste.. they certainly didnt pick the most expensive as the best..

It was a tongue in cheek comment anyway.

Ahhhh I see...I'll take the gun out of my mouth now.

shack

PolkThug wrote:

crunchy peanutbutter is the best.

Prove it!

karpiel666

incase noone has already posted this link

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

faster100

funny how defensive people who "believe" get

Not saying i do or don't.. don't care

WilliamM2

I know the articles were not just about network boxes. Did you look at the charts? .2% difference in articulation? How do you measure articulation? Is .2% audible? It's just marketing tools. I also found it odd that in most of the charts, the text is too blurry to even read the numbers.

As far as the networking boxes, I should have said it goes against my principles of Hi-Fi. As I stated before, I like simplicity. I don't use tone controls, equalizers, or any other device that colors the sound. Why would I want cables that color the sound?

Although with cables that are known to change the sound like MIT's, I would be intereted in hearing them.

F1nut

WilliamM2 wrote:

First you claim you've passed DBT's, then you admit it wasn't a DBT at all. Can't imagine why I wouldn't believe you.

Nice language BTW.

All I said was that I could tell a difference and I've been saying that since the beginning as have a large number of other people. In fact, only you and Toby seem to be the ones that can't hear a difference. I'd say you two are definitely the MINORITY, interesting, eh!?! Is it your ears or your gear? I think it's probably a little of both as I'm not sure I could hear a difference with your gear either as it's not what one would call resolving.

As for my language, I think you're a TWIT. How's that?

SCompRacer

faster100 wrote:

funny how defensive people who "believe" get

Not saying i do or don't.. don't care

The other side of that coin is.... funny how offensive people that don't believe get.

It is sad when it turns to insults rather than discussion.

WilliamM2

By the same token, in a test of 2 people one could be 8 for 10 and another could be 2 for 10 and the results under ABX protocall there would be no significant statistical difference. The result would be 50%.

Actually, they look at each individuals test. If one scored 10/10 and another scored 0/10, they would not call that 50%. They would consider the 10/10 tester's results to be statistically significant.

Skynut

I love a parade.

SCompRacer

WilliamM2 wrote:

As I stated before, I like simplicity. I don't use tone controls, equalizers, or any other device that colors the sound. Why would I want cables that color the sound?

I like simplicity too William. I don't have tone controls or equalizers either. What I do have is the perception that my system is bright. Now my bud likes what I call bright, except he calls it detail. I want the detail but not the brightness. So if a cable swap gives me the sound I want, I am happy as hell. Could be I won't be a respected audio person cause it isn't accurate, but that don't bother me cause I am the guy that has to live with it.

WilliamM2

In fact, only you and Toby seem to be the ones that can't hear a difference. I'd say you two are definitely the MINORITY, interesting, eh!?! Is it your ears or your gear? I think it's probably a little of both as I'm not sure I could hear a difference with your gear either as it's not what one would call resolving.

Yep, we're the only ones who can't hear the difference. So why was it no one can pass a DBT? I doubt it's my hearing, I have it tested every other year, and so far it is well above average for someone my age (42). Less than average high frequency loss.

Must be my gear, after all, youv'e heard it before... Although I must admit, I don't have any tube gear, can't stand the way it colors the sound, but you seem to like that sort of thing.

As for my language, I think you're a TWIT. How's that?

I really couldn't care less what you think of me, it's not like I have any respect for you, or your opinions.

PolkThug

WilliamM2 wrote:

I know the articles were not just about network boxes. Did you look at the charts? .2% difference in articulation? How do you measure articulation? Is .2% audible? It's just marketing tools. I also found it odd that in most of the charts, the text is too blurry to even read the numbers.

A problem I have with MIT Cables is their "articulation response" variable. In all that paperwork, they don't tell exactly what the variable really is. It could be the 'missing link' that would connect objectivists and subjectivists.

However, they will not answer questions about it, which has made me a little skeptical of Bruce Brisson.

If somebody can get a clear answer out of them, you have a karma item headed your way.

Sincerely,
P-Thuggy

steveinaz

Well, there goes logic right out the window...my ears are not very good (especially my left ear, thanks to an M-60 & the US Army) but I hear differences in some cables. Note I said "some".

With some things, you've got to put the book down and experience, OR the fact may be that you simply cannot detect the differences. Are you sure you haven't swayed your own opinions by having such a skeptical approach? Wouldn't that be pretty much equal to a placebo effect, but in an ironic way?

Look at digital audio; we still don't know definitively, why it sounds different from analog. Try as engineers might, there's still some flatness/dryness, loss of ambience, however you want to describe it to digital. The numbers just don't add up---theoretically, digital should sound the same (or better), but it doesn't in practice. No one knows for sure why some people can hear things that others don't, just like we don't know how an autistic 5 yr old who has never had a lesson can play a piano like Mozart.

In this world there is what is "suppose to be" (science) and there is "reality" (practice).

PolkThug

F1nut wrote:

In fact, only you and Toby seem to be the ones that can't hear a difference. I'd say you two are definitely the MINORITY, interesting, eh!?!

Hey, you left out your best buddy, the one you affectionately refer to as "crackpot".

Also interesting is different forums sway in different directions.

dorokusai

WilliamM2 wrote:

I know the articles were not just about network boxes. Did you look at the charts? .2% difference in articulation? How do you measure articulation? Is .2% audible? It's just marketing tools. I also found it odd that in most of the charts, the text is too blurry to even read the numbers.

As far as the networking boxes, I should have said it goes against my principles of Hi-Fi. As I stated before, I like simplicity. I don't use tone controls, equalizers, or any other device that colors the sound. Why would I want cables that color the sound?

Although with cables that are known to change the sound like MIT's, I would be intereted in hearing them.

That's but one section of a handful of articles...whatever, it's just reading material. What you get from it is up to you. How do you measure articulation? It's semantics, what word should they use? Some of the graphs are blurry, big deal, call the website police.

I test/sweep cables as part of my job and the differences in the field are night and day when it comes to measureable data...everytime. A .2 difference in VSWR of a hardline can have dramatic effects on the overall propagation of the call processing of a given cell site. Additionally, the change from an Andrews/Cablewave cable to a Commscope or Times cable requires alot of adjustment, as the properties of them are different.

Now, it's not audio of course, but a cable is a cable right?

Any information about a product is marketing, but not many publish White Papers to establish a baseline for the marketing. I find MIT interesting because of the information that is available for interpretation to the consumer, is more than just marketing, it's hard data. Bruce Brisson(MIT) isn't a hobo off the street....neither is Noel Lee(Monster Cable), but the differences in marketing are night and day.

If you don't think cables make a difference, that's fantastic. You do believe that gear makes a difference or you wouldn't own what you do, same here. I'm for simplicity as well, no tone controls or EQ's in this rig as I find them counterproductive.

Do you know what I've spent on a single pair of interconnects? $200. Would I pay $400 for a single pair? Probably not, as I'm content with what I have, and how everything works. I've had $1K IC's in my rig and they sounded great....so do my $200 IC's. I think the prices paid for some of this stuff is ridiculous but I've found merit and value in modestly priced cables.

Everyone that's ever come over for a demo has been impressed, but not one said it was my interconnects....damn them, damn them all to hell.

dragon1952

You know, this 'justifying purchase' argument doesn't hold much water with me. Most of us that have been in the forum awhile know that we can buy used and/or resell audio equipment and cables very easily and not risk very much money, if any. Audiogon is a great place for that practice. We also had the cable swap program going for quite awhile. There was really no risk at all besides shipping costs. Also, we don't always choose the most expensive or prettiest equipment or cables as the ones we like best. Those arguments might hold more weight if we were always stuck with a large out of pocket expense, which is what those arguments incorrectly assume.

jdhdiggs

On my "mid-fi" system, I can only tell the difference between the freeby IC's or 24Ga wire and the next step up. All the cables from the cable demo provided no change in sound on any of my systems to my, my wife's, or my brothers ear.

This is why I pick up "esoteric" IC's only when they are about the same cost as the HD or Rat shack cables. Besides, they look cool.

William: You can measure some differences in some speaker wires in their electrical charectorisistics. The problem is that it is virtually impossible to measure and then claim that the human hear can hear these minute differences.

Jesse: The cable doubters have proved their case (or the unprovable negative as WM2 says).. Look at PT's thread. He proved it... As have the published DBX and ABX tests. I have yet to see anyone do the opposite and prove there is a difference beyond saying "I can tell and I won't take a test to prove it!" posts. The placebo effect is way too strong to accept the claims of people screaming this. A person with an open mind might also want to open their mind to the possibility that the placebo effect is causing their increased enjoyment.

Me? Unlike Shack, I truly don't care anymore. I'm perfectly happy spending my audio $$$ on other areas that make a larger impact. Besides, it's not worth pissing off some of my friends here when there is 0 chance of ever changing anyone's mind on this.

Doro: I dug your interconnects baby! Yeah! Uhh, did that just cross the line to creepy?

Edited for clarity

steveinaz

dragon1952 wrote:

You know, this 'justifying purchase' argument doesn't hold much water with me. Most of us that have been in the forum awhile know that we can buy used and/or resell audio equipment and cables very easily and not risk very much money, if any. Audiogon is a great place for that practice. We also had the cable swap program going for quite awhile. There was really no risk at all besides shipping costs. Also, we don't always choose the most expensive or prettiest equipment or cables as the ones we like best. Those arguments might hold more weight if we were always stuck with a large out of pocket expense, which is what those arguments incorrectly assume.

Amen, add to that my thought that I'm not eespecially fond of parting with my money, as I suspect most feel the same way. I would love to be in the "I can't hear a difference camp" I could spend the money elsewhere...

PolkThug

SCompRacer wrote:

Which brand?:D

Jiff, and I can tell a difference between crunchy and creamy, using a one teaspoon sample, 11 out of 11 times. :cool:

faster100

Jiff hell yeah!! Crunchy baby

I'll say, I havent been able to hear a difference in alot of cases, power cords.. some speaker wire and the few IC's i have tried. BUt i still want to think the better ones are better, for looks.. for build, for terminations.. if for no other reason. and that's fine for me..

WilliamM2

The other side of that coin is.... funny how offensive people that don't believe get.

It is sad when it turns to insults rather than discussion.

Well I don't see any non-believers calling anyone names. The believers on the other hand...although not all of them sink to that level.

schwarcw

faster100 wrote:

Jiff hell yeah!!

I like the taste of Jiff, but the cheaper brand tastes better to me:D

SKsolutions

. . . . . . . .The End

F1nut

I'm not done yet.......

WilliamM2 wrote:

I really couldn't care less what you think of me, it's not like I have any respect for you, or your opinions.

Gee whiz, I'm crushed. :rolleyes: What in the world makes you think that I'd want respect from someone like you?

One of the biggest problems with your stance is the fact that you refuse to believe that someone can hear a difference while even I find it entirely possible that they are people like you that can't. That makes you the twit.

marker

:cool: :eek:

F1nut

jdhdiggs wrote:

The cable doubters have proved their case (or the unprovable negative as WM2 says).. Look at PT's thread. He proved it... As have the published DBX and ABX tests. I have yet to see anyone do the opposite and prove there is a difference beyond saying "I can tell and I won't take a test to prove it!" posts. The placebo effect is way too strong to accept the claims of people screaming this. A person with an open mind might also want to open their mind to the possibility that the placebo effect is causing their increased enjoyment.

James,

They've only proved that THEY can't hear a difference, which is far outweighed by the other people here that can.

Speaking of which, I can tell and I'd be more than happy to prove it. I've extended, more than once, an open invitation to anyone to come to my house for a DBT. The rules are simple, my gear, my cables, my choice of music and you bring whatever cables you want. I'll nail my cables 100% of the time. Yet, not one single person has taken me up on it. So, come on you non-believers, it's put up or shut time.

As for the placebo effect......nope, nada. Proved it to myself, bought way $$$ cables, wanted them to blow me away.....nope, nada. No amount of placebo effect is going to tell me they didn't sound like crapola.

jdhdiggs

Sweet, thanks for the invite Jesse, I'll take you up on it when crap here settles down a bit (end of Julyish). For me, this is a curiosity thing more than anything else.

And what I meant by proved is that microphones, oscilliscopes, etc... have all shown no difference. Machines are not biased.

As for placebo super high $$$, people already have the bias that they are too expensive. Kind of like auditioning Wilson X-1- If you know the price goin in, you won't enjoy it because your expectations are too high.

Anyway, I'll do my best to take you up on your offer so MAYBE (not likely) we can settle this. (Yeah right....)

dorokusai

James - Just be happy that you won't hear "Dueling Banjos" when you drive up to Jesse's house, now that he has moved out of the bat cave.

karpiel666

just post a of someone naked or something if you want the thread to die