Power Cords realy help!

shack

samNOISE wrote:

Don’t you agree that this represents the best possible scenario ever devised to get to the bottom of this issue which haunts every single A/V forum?

Well...no. The best soulution is to let every single person decide for themselves. Generally speaking it is not the people who like/need/want high end performance cables trying to convert the rest of the audio world. No..It is generally the doubters who demand that we prove to them what we hear and categorize the ones who use them as either liars or dupes.

Ferres

When I'm testing out a cable for the system. I listen to a specific instrument that is not very audible in the background of a track. Then I switch out the cables and see if I can find that instrument again.

Another is listen to the voice of the performer and try to place his/her location in the soundstage. Did he move forward or back when you switched cables.

For movies, track down the dialogue which is most difficult to understand and do the same.

You could also check out increase or decrease in base responses.

PhantomOG

Well, since dogs have better hearing than humans, I pick a CD/movie with really high pitched voices and make my dogs listen to it and watch their expressions/turning of the head to see which cable is better.

I kid, I kid!!

Ferres

Bad music will sound twice as bad for the dog.:D

hearingimpared

reeltrouble1 wrote:

I am not buying this crap about Musical Memory being so short.

Given three tones or even two tones the brain can identify many songs, why, it recognizes and remembers both pitch and tone, many many average folks can sing a tune within a half tone of the correct pitch from memory without music.

Musical Memory in folks is amazing.

IN the words of Sir Elton John--Screw You.

RT1

Musical memory being short is baloney. My all time favorite recording is Jazz at the Pawnshop, my favorite cut is "Lady Be Good." I know every single note, from all instruments including percussion including the breathing sounds that Arns Domnerus makes while playing, including the fan buzzing in Lars Erstrands vibes, I know every single glass clinking, talking din, phone ringing, chairs moving, etc from the crowd. I hadn't heard this recording on a good hi-rez system in 15 to 20 years when I heard it again back in October on a pretty decent (well really good) system I was able to sit there and identify, before they were played or acted out every part of the recording, I also noted where the missing pieces were that the system was not reproducing the recoding accurately.

I use this recording when I am doing an A/B test on anything new to my system including recently, SACD, which by the way reproduced this recording with extreme accuracy. Better than any CD version of it I ever heard and right there with the LP version.

I can hear the difference with cable change outs in my system, if I can't then the new cable isn't doing anything differently than the original.

$.02 complete.

F1nut

I don't buy the short auditory memory crap either. The ears and brain are amazing devices that science is yet to fully understand.

pearsall001

hearingimpared wrote:

Musical memory being short is baloney. My all time favorite recording is Jazz at the Pawnshop, my favorite cut is "Lady Be Good." I know every single note, from all instruments including percussion including the breathing sounds that Arns Domnerus makes while playing, including the fan buzzing in Lars Erstrands vibes, I know every single glass clinking, talking din, phone ringing, chairs moving, etc from the crowd. I hadn't heard this recording on a good hi-rez system in 15 to 20 years when I heard it again back in October on a pretty decent (well really good) system I was able to sit there and identify, before they were played or acted out every part of the recording, I also noted where the missing pieces were that the system was not reproducing the recoding accurately.

I use this recording when I am doing an A/B test on anything new to my system including recently, SACD, which by the way reproduced this recording with extreme accuracy. Better than any CD version of it I ever heard and right there with the LP version.

I can hear the difference with cable change outs in my system, if I can't then the new cable isn't doing anything differently than the original.

$.02 complete.

I can attest to Joe's audio memory. At my place he simply amazed me with his audio memory. On CD's that he was familiar with (Jazz at the Pawnshop for one) he knew exactly what to expect & how well it was played back on your system. He knew exactly where every sound was supposed to be located in regards to the soundstage. Even when & where the ping of a wine glass was to placed on the soundstage. He let you know immediately if your system reproduced the playback the way it was recorded. I think my system passed his test. And bye the way Joe, where's that NAD T773 in your sig.?

samNOISE

The point of the discussion is not about saving you money, its about truth in one of my favorite hobbies! If any of you are ever passing through British Columbia's Okanagan Valley, drop me a line, bring your cables, amplifiers, whatever: I will demonstrate the point I am making - thats a standing / open invite to one and all.

In the meantime~ I surrender... :rolleyes:

Andrew D.
Cdnav
.

hearingimpared

samNOISE wrote:

The point of the discussion is not about saving you money, its about truth in one of my favorite hobbies! If any of you are ever passing through British Columbia's Okanagan Valley, drop me a line, bring your cables, amplifiers, whatever: I will demonstrate the point I am making - thats a standing / open invite to one and all.

In the meantime~ I surrender... :rolleyes:

Andrew D.
Cdnav
.

Welcome to Club Polk there Brother!

schwarcw

Welcome to Club Polk Forums! Will we see you again?

Deadof_knight

When your familar with you system or anyone else's for that matter and how your favorite cd sounds you know what to expect and when to hear it. The system brings out the good or bad of what your expeting to hear. take the eagle cds I played there final tour dvd and the same song on their greatest hits cd and the one guitar is less pronounced from one to the other. I knew what I was expeting and noticed it imedeately !!

F1nut

samNOISE wrote:

The point of the discussion is not about saving you money, its about truth in one of my favorite hobbies!

And the truth is in the ears of the beholder. I thank you for the invite, but I already know the truth.

Enjoy your stay.

johnADA

For one the ears are connected to the brain.
The brain is gullible!!!

To prove this ideal out takes the none useage of your ears and brain, it takes a neutral, none sway able device.

Using a microphone, program and frequency test patterns measure your speakers abilities.

If any cord/cable/interconnect actually would make a difference the measurements of the speakers performance would indicate very clearly where, IF any, it made a difference.

Hasnt shown any yet!!!

W WALDECKER

johnADA wrote:

For one the ears are connected to the brain.
The brain is gullible!!!

To prove this ideal out takes the none useage of your ears and brain, it takes a neutral, none sway able device.

Using a microphone, program and frequency test patterns measure your speakers abilities.

If any cord/cable/interconnect actually would make a difference the measurements of the speakers performance would indicate very clearly where, IF any, it made a difference.

Hasnt shown any yet!!!

I have two different models of loudspeaker and IC cables made by the same manufacturer and if i swap them out the audible differences are not subtle and they are in fact almost like night and day and if i swaped them out ten times the results would still be the same. just because you cant measure something does not mean that it does not exist! :rolleyes:

PolkThug

W WALDECKER wrote:

just because you cant measure something does not mean that it does not exist!

Unless you're talking about sound, which is measureable.

W WALDECKER

PolkThug wrote:

Unless you're talking about sound, which is measureable.

What is measureable the SPL or the Sonic signature of an audio cable ?

Deadof_knight

Last time I checked they didnt have a devise that could measure depth of sound or how accurate the sound was, That is left up to the mind (which is gullible...) Like when you can pinpoint the different instruments.... what devise can do that ?

F1nut

johnADA wrote:

For one the ears are connected to the brain.
The brain is gullible!!!

To prove this ideal out takes the none useage of your ears and brain, it takes a neutral, none sway able device.

Using a microphone, program and frequency test patterns measure your speakers abilities.

If any cord/cable/interconnect actually would make a difference the measurements of the speakers performance would indicate very clearly where, IF any, it made a difference.

Hasnt shown any yet!!!

You and Toby are in the wrong hobby if you believe that. Tone, soundstage, PRAT, etc, can not be measured.

Let's look at this in way that you might understand. You take two people playing the violin, one an accomplished musican, the other a beginner. You use your test equipment to measure the sound and what do you know, they both measure the same, yet one sounds like heaven and the other sounds like crap. Get it yet???

hearingimpared

F1nut wrote:

You and Toby are in the wrong hobby if you believe that. Tone, soundstage, PRAT, etc, can not be measured.

Let's look at this in way that you might understand. You take two people playing the violin, one an accomplished musican, the other a beginner. You use your test equipment to measure the sound and what do you know, they both measure the same, yet one sounds like heaven and the other sounds like crap. Get it yet???

Hmmmmm I don't think even the most ardent of disbelievers can argue with that simple point.

johnADA

This is what is so entertaining about this hobby.
The fact you can try, with the mind, sway outcomes and defend on how well your hearing can detect things, but yet be connected to the brain which is looking for a difference.

Your example of a beginner against a seasoned pro has NADA bearing on the arguement.

If you cannot hear and instrument clearly or not at all. You then are having a problem with a certian frequency range being down in DB. YOU CAN measure that.

I just did a frequency sweep using YOUR receiver/CD player or whatever, with MIRACLE CABLE and it could play X frequency ( same as the instrument you couldnt hear before) with and audible to hearing amount. I then swap back to MR Cheapo cable it and still can play X frequency, with the same audible hearing amount, your telling me I wont hear that instrument anymore, which I just proved your system could duplicate.


If you are hearing distortion induced by a cable, it plays through the speakers and then add a new cable and its not there, IT MEASURABLE.

If at a setting of let say 50% power, you measure the speakers and its puts out X, add a new cable and it puts out Y at the same 50% which you did not move at all, ITS MEASURABLE.

Once down the path to the dark side!!!!! Get it????

tonyb

F1nut wrote:

You and Toby are in the wrong hobby if you believe that. Tone, soundstage, PRAT, etc, can not be measured.

Let's look at this in way that you might understand. You take two people playing the violin, one an accomplished musican, the other a beginner. You use your test equipment to measure the sound and what do you know, they both measure the same, yet one sounds like heaven and the other sounds like crap. Get it yet???

No Jess,I don't think he does.Would like to know what he uses to measure
tone,soundstage,and depth though.Must be some 25 th century piece of gear he uses.

And if none of this mattered,John,why don't professional recording studio's,
Broadcast company's,etc. use the standard rat shack cables? Maybe you know more than they do.Sure the science can measure the difference in sound but I don't think there is an instrument available to measure the QUALITY of that sound.That is why you were given ears.Use them sometime,you might like what you hear.:)

bikezappa

The ear is an instrument. And if enough money and time is spend, equipment can be set up to duplicate or exceed the capablities of the ear.

My test of a system is compare live music to recorded music played in the home. How close are they is the question for me. If you go to the BSO and listen to XYZ and they broadcast that same XYZ music live on FM or produce a CD of that XYZ music you can do some comparisions. No it's not anywhere near perfect, but neither are judgements/comparisons about a CD recording that you never heard live.

Way back when in the 1960s AR would do a free test/comparison with live music. They would set up a quartet in between there speakers in front of a group of people. They would play and switch from live music and music with the speakers to see if the people could tell the differance. The quartet would pretend to play when the speakers were playing. The people were back far enough from the music such that it was very diffecult to know what making the music.

That is a good test.

And maybe if they changed ICs or power cables the difference between speakers and real live music could be made even less. Who knows?

My point is that you need to make a comparison to the real thing, LIVE MUSIC not what you think the music should sound like if you want an accurate music system. Great for all of you if you think adding this or that to your system makes it sound better to your ears. It's your money and your ears. However, I suggest you consider going to a live accoustic music performance either jazz or classical or folk and buy the performers CD. Listen to it at home and compare the memories of the live performance and you home system. I don't think an electronic music performance would be a good example to use because of the electronic manipulation that they use.

I am not trying to say anything or comment about any ones ability to hear. I'm just suggesting a simple test. Go listen to live music performance that has as little electronic effects possible, buy the CD and compare.

This may put some things into perspective. In my experience no home system comes close to the live accoustic performace played without any electric amplification. It's amazing to hear live music with out microphones, amplifiers and speakers.

PolkThug

F1nut wrote:

You and Toby are in the wrong hobby if you believe that. Tone, soundstage, PRAT, etc, can not be measured.

Let's look at this in way that you might understand. You take two people playing the violin, one an accomplished musican, the other a beginner. You use your test equipment to measure the sound and what do you know, they both measure the same, yet one sounds like heaven and the other sounds like crap. Get it yet???

I don't see how you can possibly say that tone can't be measured. Microphones can measure tones, that is a fact. Every beautiful sound on you favorite live jazz ensamble CD was recorded with a microphone. At any particular fraction of a second, in any given song there are sonic frequencies and various amplitudes, which are all detectable by microphones. If they weren't detectable, then they wouldn't end up on the CD. To deny that microphones can't detect these sounds, makes no sense. Get it yet??? Your two violinists example would definitley show differences on a quality waterfall chart.

I'm no pro, ask Matt Polk or Ed Mullen if tones can be meausured. The guys at Martin Logan take tone measurement very seriously, I've seen them do some testing.

I've never tried to measure "soundstage" and I would never bother. My left ear hears slightly better than my right ear, so "my soundstage" is probably a little different than everyone elses.

If I'm in the wrong hobby, I sure am having a lot of fun anyway.:)

shack

I have alway found the "I want to hear music like I hear it live" funny since the majority of the "live" music that is heard is AMPLIFIED. Even in the most intimate club setting the performers are using microphones, cables, amplifiers speakers, etc...to reproduce the music. The exception may be orchestral peroformances.

On the cable thing...I still find it curious as to why the people who can't hear or don't believe in the differences always want proof. It comes across like someone who wasn't invited to the party is doing everything they can to convince everybody else it's a lousy party anyway that no one should want to go to. If it is so bad and doesn't matter...why do you care? I'm sure the reasons are altuistic in nature...:rolleyes:

PolkThug

shack wrote:

On the cable thing...I still find it curious as to why the people who can't hear or don't believe in the differences always want proof.

I think its just human nature. On one end, you have blind faith, where a person will believe whatever you tell them, on the other end you have people that require actual evidence.

I think it would be cool to see someone pick out the differences in cables if they didn't know which cable was hooked up. That would be cool. :cool:

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

This is what is so entertaining about this hobby.
The fact you can try, with the mind, sway outcomes and defend on how well your hearing can detect things, but yet be connected to the brain which is looking for a difference.

Your example of a beginner against a seasoned pro has NADA bearing on the arguement.

If you cannot hear and instrument clearly or not at all. You then are having a problem with a certian frequency range being down in DB. YOU CAN measure that.

I just did a frequency sweep using YOUR receiver/CD player or whatever, with MIRACLE CABLE and it could play X frequency ( same as the instrument you couldnt hear before) with and audible to hearing amount. I then swap back to MR Cheapo cable it and still can play X frequency, with the same audible hearing amount, your telling me I wont hear that instrument anymore, which I just proved your system could duplicate.


If you are hearing distortion induced by a cable, it plays through the speakers and then add a new cable and its not there, IT MEASURABLE.

If at a setting of let say 50% power, you measure the speakers and its puts out X, add a new cable and it puts out Y at the same 50% which you did not move at all, ITS MEASURABLE.

Once down the path to the dark side!!!!! Get it????

Sorry no I don get your analogy. Can your ears distinguish between the rich tone of a Stradivarius vs. a regular violin???? What spl meter or frequency reading device can tell the difference between the two, none. No I don't think your analogy holds water hear.

johnADA wrote:

Your example of a beginner against a seasoned pro has NADA bearing on the arguement.

You still haven't qualified your statement above, because you can't. Frequency measuring instruments cannot tell the difference between a good performance and a lousy performance. That being said I will always trust my ears in that regard.

bikezappa

shack wrote:

I have alway found the "I want to hear music like I hear it live" funny since the majority of the "live" music that is heard is AMPLIFIED. Even in the most intimate club setting the performers are using microphones, cables, amplifiers speakers, etc...to reproduce the music. The exception may be orchestral peroformances.

That is sad but true. I'll never ever under stand it either, because the amps and the speakers degrade the music and the sound stage.

I have been to jazz clubs where the women is singing into a mic and the sound of her voice is coming out of a speaker 20 feet away.

In small jazz clubs there is never any need for amplification of the piano or drums. I wish the electronics would just stay home in small clubs.

PolkThug

hearingimpared wrote:

Frequency measuring instruments cannot tell the difference between a good performance and a lousy performance.

This statement is 100% correct. "Good" and "lousy" are subjective and you should trust your ears for that. Measurement devices will only show you the differences, which we could only make assumptions about which differences are "better".

Staring at two waterfall charts of a good and bad violinist will let you visually see the sonic differences, but since a chart doesn't make any noise, your ears will have to tell you which one you liked.

Meausurement devices and your ears can coexist peacefully.

hearingimpared

PolkThug wrote:

I think its just human nature. On one end, you have blind faith, where a person will believe whatever you tell them, on the other end you have people that require actual evidence.

I think it would be cool to see someone pick out the differences in cables if they didn't know which cable was hooked up. That would be cool. :cool:

I think the differences in people's musical or audible tastes is what will come into play here. For example, high silver content cables have a brighter sound to them, some people prefer that bright sound so they would probably pick the cable that sounds bright to them even though they didn't know what cable was hooked up.

A good analogy here would be someone who has been brought up on CDs only and then hears a good analog recording. . . they don't like the analog because it doesn't SEEM to have the punch or range or is too "warm" compared the digital music they have been listening to has.

hearingimpared

bikezappa wrote:

shack wrote:

I
I have been to jazz clubs where the women is singing into a mic and the sound of her voice is coming out of a speaker 20 feet away.

Recently my wife and I were in a casino in Atlantic City and went to the Coaster/Platters/Drifters show. All singers and instruments went through mic. We were 3 feet off the stage. The music was coming out of the speakers 20 feet above us. At one point while moving through the audience one of performers was right behind me as is a foot away and I didn't know it. . .his voice was coming from 20 feet above. I couldn't hear his voice at all behind me. It's a shame when you go to a live show and the performance is terrific but the mic'ing and amplification is awful.