Power Cords realy help!

WilliamM2

What I find funny is that the anti-cable crowd sounds almost insecure about the topic; "Prove to me you can hear that..." It's laughable.

So now you agree with me.

F1nut

WilliamM2 wrote:

I asked why no one has ever been able to prove they sound different, and of course ALL of you just avoid the question.

No one has been able to prove they all sound the same and you avoided my question.

WilliamM2

That's because your question is nonsense. You can't prove a negative.

Seems if there were a difference, the manufacturers would use any proof they could find, it would spur cable sales. Yet they don't.

steveinaz

William, it's a matter of why would someone feel like they need to defend their purchase. That was the purpose of the analogy. I know there are tons of measureable differences between a Vette and a Metro, my point is, if you like a Metro then you buy a Metro. If your happy with standard cables, then cool; just don't expect everyone else to feel rediculous because it isn't in line with your thinking.

I can and do hear a difference in cables, that's why I upgraded. Now, am I gonna plunk down $600 for an IC? Hell no. We all have our limits, and of course the rule of diminishing returns comes into play once you reach a certain level. But if someone else likes a $600 IC---shoot, go to it, it's your dime. Just as someone who may like the way their supplied IC sounds---cool, it's your system, if you like the sound you're done.

Understand, I'm a "converted" non-believer...well, to an extent. I've always replaced the supplied IC's because I liked a better constructed cable--but I didn't think there was any audible difference. That was until I tried it. I had run Monster 12awg for years (18 years) and decided to try something different--mostly out of boredom--but curiousity was also a factor.

I bought some Audioquest Granites during a huge 60% off sale at AA. I think I paid about $243 for a 10ft pair. The difference was NOT subtle, and was immediate. I couldn't go back to Monster (or any other standard stranded wire) for nothing.

Another thing most non-believer's state is that wire is wire...why? Because they all measure the same. WRONG, impedance, resistance, topolgy, insulation, shielding, connectors (are they true 75ohm compliant?) all are measurable and important factors---cables can and do measure differently. This isn't voo-doo.

WilliamM2

I've always replaced the supplied IC's because I liked a better constructed cable--but I didn't think there was any audible difference. That was until I tried it.

I also replace all the supplied cables for the build quality. But I have never heard a difference, and I have tried. Since all current scientific data on the matter seems to back this up, I have no problem with my conclusions.

It would only take one person to pass a DBT to verify that they do sound different.

steveinaz

They may not, depends on how much better they are and the topolgy employed (solid conductor, copper or silver, braid & stranded) etc.

Cable changes are extremely system-dependant. I probably couldn't tell an $18 IC from a $200 IC on someone elses system because I'm not familiar enough with their systems tonal characteristics. One time I preferred a cheaper IC to it's more expensive sibling; AQ Copperhead vs. AQ Diamondback. I preferred (and prefer) the supposed inferior Copperhead. The Diamondback sounded too dry and 2-dimensional in my system. Bigger isn't always better--synergy is the key. There are many on here who use and love the Diamondback because it synergizes well with their system.

But, the bottom line is if you like the way they synergize with your system, why change it?

steveinaz

WilliamM2 wrote:

I also replace all the supplied cables for the build quality. But I have never heard a difference, and I have tried. Since all current scientific data on the matter seems to back this up, I have no problem with my conclusions.

It would only take one person to pass a DBT to verify that they do sound different.

William, if you don't mind me asking, what components do you run?

WilliamM2

I have run various seperates for 25 years, (Parasound, Adcom, Rotel, etc.) too many to list.

Currently:
Denon POA2400 power amp
Rotel Power amp
Marantz CD Player
Yamaha CD Player
Panamax line conditioner
SDA1C's with updated tweeters and crossovers
RTi28's
CSi4
Energy s12.2

For home theatre I use all of the above and an RX-V1500 as Pre-Pro. For critical CD listening I run the Marantz directly into the Denon power amp with the SDA1C's. I like simplicity. This also makes comparing interconnects easier, as there is only one in the entire setup for CD listening.

steveinaz

That's a nice setup, I know you don't want to hear this but I'd try some AQ Bedrock speaker cable (still on sale) and at least test drive some used Kimber PBJ's. You get the speaker wire and I'll send you out a pair of 1mtr PBJ's for your Marantz CD straight thru the Denon amp config for a listen---here's a chance to give it a go. Because Marantz tends to be on the warm side of neutral, the Bedrocks would be a good balance with their solid conductor topolgy (very clean grain-free treble) and would also expolit the PBJ better.

Put on a track you know very well, play it through listening carefully to cymbals attack and decay, do they splash or do they shimmer, bass authority/depth and control, and vocal realism. Power everything down (don't touch the volume) swap the PBJ's in quickly, and repeat. I think you'll be surprised.

Think about it....

F1nut

WilliamM2 wrote:

That's because your question is nonsense. You can't prove a negative.

HUH??? So you're saying that only positives can be proved!?! Maybe there's some logic in there, but I'm just not seeing it.

15 minus 16 equals -1. Damn, I just proved a negative.

PolkThug

steveinaz wrote:

What I find funny is that the cable crowd sounds almost insecure about the topic

fixed.

PolkThug

Hi William,

Here's the facts:

1. There is no measureable difference.

2. Some people claim to hear a difference.

This hasn't and won't change. Enjoy the music!

For fun, you can read this thread, I attempted to find a difference myself and couldn't: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27287

WilliamM2

Think about it....

Thanks for the offer, but I have already done that type of camparison with cables borrowed from a local dealer. No difference.

Skynut

steveinaz wrote:

That's a nice setup, I know you don't want to hear this but I'd try some AQ Bedrock speaker cable (still on sale) and at least test drive some used Kimber PBJ's. You get the speaker wire and I'll send you out a pair of 1mtr PBJ's for your Marantz CD straight thru the Denon amp config for a listen---here's a chance to give it a go. Because Marantz tends to be on the warm side of neutral, the Bedrocks would be a good balance with their solid conductor topolgy (very clean grain-free treble) and would also expolit the PBJ better.

Put on a track you know very well, play it through listening carefully to cymbals attack and decay, do they splash or do they shimmer, bass authority/depth and control, and vocal realism. Power everything down (don't touch the volume) swap the PBJ's in quickly, and repeat. I think you'll be surprised.

Think about it....

Nice offer.:)

WilliamM2

So you're saying that only positives can be proved!?! Maybe there's some logical in there, but I'm just not seeing it.

I wouldn't expect you to.

WilliamM2

Thug,

It more like:

1. There is no measureable difference.

2. Some people claim to hear a difference.

3. The difference is "night and day".

4. They all fail the DBT's.

This hasn't and won't change. Enjoy the music!

PolkThug

:-)


.. ..

dbnh

Midnite Mick wrote:

I recently acquired a jolida cd player and many here recommended a power cord upgrade. I talked to others, including my dealer and they didn't really feel that power upgrade on equipment was worth it. I was over at my dealers house watching a movie one evening and when I left he gave me a heavier gauge, but just a simple OEM power cord that he put an industrial end on it to try. I was shocked at the difference. Bass is less muddy, and top half really opened up. I am currently waiting for my PS Audio statement cable to arrive (damn backorder). I know you are going to respond Jesse so I will just say it. You are totally correct. I apologize if I seemed to have doubts.

Mike

Mike,

I too own a JD-100 cdp, and was blown away when I swapped in a VenHaus Audio Flavor 1 PC. The bottom end really tightened up, esp. after I had about 200 hours on the cord. I also noticed gobs more detail across the board, making this cpd one great bang-for-the-buck unit.

YMMV.

mantis

WilliamM2 wrote:

Thug,

It more like:

1. There is no measureable difference.

2. Some people claim to hear a difference.

3. The difference is "night and day".

4. They all fail the DBT's.

This hasn't and won't change. Enjoy the music!

What are you looking for? If you feel that way, why keep posting on this topic. It's dead right?? Case closed.

I'll go enjoy my system with a complete upgraded Audioquest wiring.

Dan

W WALDECKER

I have been comparing several audio cables over the past few years and in a high resolution stereo system cables do make a difference. i have two seperate lines from the same world class manufacturer and when i compare the very good cable vs the top of the line cable the difference is not slight, in fact it is immediate and dramatic.i hear very well and i trust my ears. no snake oil or hocus pocus nor is my mind playing tricks on me.the fact is that i hear what i hear! thanks....WCW III

Midnite Mick

You (dbnh) must have started reading this thread from the beginning. I do have the PS audio statement power cord installed now and there wasn't as big a difference versus the plain heavier gauge cord as there was between the heavier gauge cord vs. the stock. Both produced more top half and tightened the bass, which makes it sound more open/less muddy. The primary difference between the ps audio and the heavier gauge is that the highs seem cleaner. With the heavier gauge cord that increased the highs it seemed a little grainy whereas the ps audio cord cleaned that up a little.

I have been following this thread since its inception and I think that people should just understand that everybodies circumstances are different. For some systems and gear it may make a difference and for some it may not. People should have open minds and state what they personally have discovered in their experiences but it should never turn into personal attacks on others. If you have never heard a difference then state that you have not heard a difference. If you have heard a difference then describe those differences. In a word R E S P E C T others opinions! Simple.

I think that individual audio gear may be simple but when you incorporate it all into a system things become more complex. This may influence what / if any differences are audible. Also the chain of gear is only as strong as the weakest link (I know lame). If for example you have a weak source having a different connects into your processor (or whatever) may not relay any sonic differences. I agree that audio all starts at the source. If it isn't there it isn't there no matter what connect you may have.

Have I heard differences in connects or speaker wire? No, I have not in comparing the 2 connects and 2 speaker wires that I have compared. Did I do a controlled fast A/B? No I did not. There may or not be a difference in the 2 of each that I have used. I didn't really investigate indepthly. However, I would never state that there is no difference accross the board. I am not qualified to do so. I think that cables and wire are final touches on systems and I am not there yet.

As far as power cords go I wonder if it would have a greater impact on tube gear vs. solid state and/or digital. These would need more energy as they emit more heat, do they not. Just a thought.

I have never claimed to be an expert. Hey I am just starting to find the sound I like as I never even knew what I like before (falling in love with tubes).

Just my .02 cents. Don't beat me up too much now.

Mike

WilliamM2

What are you looking for?

I have stated it several times, I'll try again.

One single verified double blind test where at least one participant has successfully identified the cables being used. Or even one test where the participant has successfully identified that the cables were changed at all.

These type of tests have been performed dozens, if not hundreds of times. No one has ever been able to do it.

Kinda odd when "the difference is not slight, in fact it is immediate and dramatic.".

PolkThug

yeehaWW!

mantis

WilliamM2 wrote:

I have stated it several times, I'll try again.

One single verified double blind test where at least one participant has successfully identified the cables being used. Or even one test where the participant has successfully identified that the cables were changed at all.

These type of tests have been performed dozens, if not hundreds of times. No one has ever been able to do it.

Kinda odd when "the difference is not slight, in fact it is immediate and dramatic.".

Take the test yourself. Pass it and buy better cables, fail and move on. Simple yet effective. Stop beating a dead horse.What proof cables make a difference? Your answer isn't in here.

Dan

mantis

PolkThug wrote:

yeehaWW!

Hell yeah man, now thats what I'm talking about. Makes you wanna be a Cowboy and everything...

Dan

shack

dorokusai wrote:

Yawn.

I wholeheartedly agree with my friend from MD!

Lsi9

Anyone have Bluejeans interconnects, you like them?
I just ordered a 3ft. 5channel set for pre/amp connection
and a digital coax cable, I chose blue Jeans over Cobalt cables
big price difference even though Cobalts looked nicer

LiquidSound

Damn straight it was night and day. As an audiophile, my word can't be trusted...which is why I used someone with just enough info and practice to be dangerous. Blindfolded to boot!

I don't care what comes up on tests..I just know I gave, yes gave the inferior cables away. They have no place in my system.

Have you any idea how many times my mom had a "bad feeling" about a situation, and busted me drinking or whatever. I didn't hook her up to a machine to test her "mother's intuition", but my busted **** gave all the proof I needed! The woman is *scary* intuitive.

I still stand by my original stance. Cables are one of the biggest problems in audio..remove them and the difference is TRULY night and day!!! You'll notice the results immediately and I'm sure it will register on any device you hook it up to.

F1nut

WilliamM2 wrote:

I wouldn't expect you to.

You're the one who made the asinine statement that negatives can't be proved. You're the one who can't hear a difference. You're the one who wants to force your opinions on the rest of us because of your inherent failings and yet you have the nerve to insult me!?! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, you really don't expect to be taken seriously, do you??? Right, I didn't think so.:rolleyes:

dragon1952

Objectivists tend to scoff at the 'Golden Ear' theory. To them all hearing is created equal. I'm not sure where they get that notion. Maybe because everyone has ears? Everyone's hearing is NOT the same. Neither is their hearing comprehension. My wife can't tell one artist from another (except for maybe Elvis) let alone a note or a melody. That's at the extreme end but there is everything in between. I don't know why it's so unbelievable that some people can distinguish differences better than others. As far as the double blind tests, they appear to force people to try to distinguish cable A from cables B, C and D rather than just saying 'can you hear a difference between this one and that one'. If I listened to 3 or 4 cables I doubt seriously if I could put them in any order. It's not like being able to tell if it's Pepsi or Coke. It's rather a matter of whether or not they TASTE different. In my experimentation, some cables sound the same, some sound a little different and some sound way different. If you switch them in and out in a blind test could I tell you off the top of my head which was which? Hell no, but given some time with them I could choose which one I preferred. The whole thing is subjective and the other side wants to turn it into an objective, scientific memory test.