Power Cords realy help!

TN_Polk_Lover

johnADA wrote:

. . .
What did I learn?
Most all hear-able audible changes can be measured.
Some, since so subtle, while can be measured, you cannot hear them.
Some while you can both hear and measure them, SUBJECTIVITY is in order to describe them.
If you can hear it and not have a measurable outcome, well, JEDI mind trick!!

You say "Most all hear-able audible changes can be measured." Why can't you say with confidence "ALL hear-able audible changes can be measured"?

You can't because we don't know all there is to know about sound and how the ear / brain combination works entirely. Read chapter 3 of "Master Handbook of Acoustics" 4th edition by F. Alton Everest.

If we don't really know everything there is to know about the ear and brain and how everyone interprets sounds, then how can we be sure that everything about sound can be measured? Sure you can measure the resistance of a wire with a DC ohmmeter. However, when excited by an AC waveform of sound, how do we know for sure that the current instruments we have now can accurately measure the resistance, capacitance, etc. to the same resolving power (resolution) that the ear is capable of?

Interesting analogy: I asked my eye doctor why I could see "better than normal" 15/20 vs. 20/20 (with contacts), but he could only see 20/20, even though he was also wearing lenses that perfectly focused the image on his retina. He said that there was much more that affected how well we see, other than just the image being in focus. He said that some people are born with more rods and cones than other people and therefore, their ablity to resolve images is better, hence they can pass an eyechart test with smaller letters better than the "average" person which is considered 20/20.

Could it be that some people have more of the little hairs and "stereocilia" inside the cochlea (the inner ear) than others, and therefore hear differently, or with more detail than others?

For example, when I see something that is "red", does it look the same to you? What if the color that I think is red appears as purple to you?

I just read the other day that scientist have discovered, that (in general) women have a higher proportion of cones (color) receptors than men. Men have a higher percentage of rods (resolves gray tones). This could help explain why women seem to be able to distinguish subtle shades of colors that most men could care less about, or don't seem to notice? This would also give men an edge at seeing things move at night. We also know that cats have a much higher rod count than people, therefore their night vision is very good.

To think that we can measure everything is absurd. We have made great strides in science, but sometimes, the more we learn, the more we realize how much there still is to learn and how complex and wonderfully made our bodies and brains are.

So, if you made changes to certain components and could not hear a difference, don't assume that applies to everyone. Some people might be able to hear a difference that you can't. I should not question that you did not hear a difference. Likewise, you should not question me if I do hear a difference.

Just my 2 cents.

johnADA

TN_Polk_Lover wrote:

You say "Most all hear-able audible changes can be measured." Why can't you say with confidence "ALL hear-able audible changes can be measured"?

I do say it with confidence. Just written wrong once I re-read it. We cant hear all audible changes a microphone can detect. OK, sometimes I get ahead of myself in thought against a 2 finder typing approach.
Why I leave and open area, because it exists and this existence is where you's jump in, but I just didnt explain it.
The average person which it has been proven can hear audible changes in the order starting at 3 db or more, no less.
Some measurable changes go much lower than 3 db, but we as people can not hear a 3 db level change.

Now we all can agree and your right, some people have better hearing/sight etc than other people due to various factors.
On that point, how many can hear things others, INCLUDING myself, cant, have been tested for their auditory range??

How many that have had tests have done so in a group environment??

Why I ask this is because I both get tested yearly and in a group environment. With first hand knowledge in both, when a test is administered and people KNOW its happening you see a few trends that come to light. You see a struggle in their faces, a deep determination to hear these test tones. You also see a pattern of guessing as they click away at the button when they think they hear a tone. Talk to someone that administers these tests about this. they'll tell you both very good hearing people and people with poor hearing guess at the same frequency of times. Not all do this, why, mentality is the reason. How calm is person is about the results, how nervous they are etc. This would apply the same to power cords results. If you really believe your gonna hear a difference, you will!!! Blind test it and have someone else do the swapping and nail YOUR particular brand of cords at 75%+ and I'd be somewhat impressed.

I know where my hearing is, I measure and audible range from just in the upper 30's to just over 13K. Hearing is above excellent for my age group and very good against much younger people. I will at my next hearing test scan the results.

I work in a 90DB + environment and its required by insurance we get these tests yearly so we may attempt to minimize our hearing loss and the companies liability to such. We pad certain areas of the shop for different levels as per the Fletcher Munson studies. Some higher DB sounds are not as damaging to hearing as lower DC sounds in which the human ear more sensitive with, so we pad for them accordingly and so on.

Some people at the shop I run are amazed at how in each department, each set of frequency's a machine in those departments give off, I can hear subtle changes they can not. I run to machines and shut them off before failures occur and they look at me like I nuts only to find out I was right.

I'm not blowing my own horn, but my hearing for whatever reason is much more sensitive than most in my shop of over 150 employees. Could be due to the hearing I have itself, or the fact I do listen to alot of music and have played instruments most of my life, so things of this nature are easier for me to understand and hear.

OK, I did say I tested out cables, but didnt list everything I had done with this setup that was borrowed. The only cable I referred to in anything I posted was a normal red-white audio cable to a better made blue jeans/mono price one, because it was the only one I could support to make a change.

That ontop of common sense left me to omit the power cable.

Open bare wired inside a case, in and area that has the large amount of interference that could be introduced for such a small area in the scheme of things, exiting the case to a SUPERIOR cable connected to a substandard per your terms power line, connected to a superhighway of substandard, squirrel chewed, radio interference induced power transmission lines to a noisy electrical substation and so on , would yield such dramatic differences in a 6 foot length or so.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thats one hell of a power cord!!!

tonyb

Hmmmm......ya know.....
If I position a paperclip just right.....between my mercury induced
dental fillings.....I can get XM radio.:p

Ferres

johnADA wrote:

Thats one hell of a power cord!!!

I don't get it either but the Isotek powercords work. It's stupid but it does. I've tested it on the old Marantz sr6300 with an xlo ultra and another audiophile powercord from Japan. The isotek still trumped those and the xlo is more expensive. Also the xlo cable did not like the subwoofer's 220 to 110 transformer, caused odd thumpings when powered on

It may depend on location as well. Some power companies have dirtier power than others. Industial zones and commercial zones may have more irregularities with greater draw.

I don't buy into things unless they actually do something. If I did I'd get the xlo Ref coz' it's a whole lot prettier. :rolleyes:

disneyjoe7

johnADA wrote:

I measure and audible range from just in the upper 30's to just over 13K.

Hmmm.... Hearing range to just 13k, I think this maybe your problem if there's one. My hearing is to about 20k for a 42 old male, and for what I found out forum members here may have about the same. I'm not putting down 13k don't get me wrong, but in general Audiophile's may have a higher hearing threshold. So maybe it's something you can't hear, something you can't measure, but someone else hears.

reeltrouble1

I think we need more Data, why dont you get on it.

I continue to find it amazing that the newbs feel the need to come here and set us straight about things. Thanks though.

Who ever said a power cord would make things play louder??? Who ever said how loud something is equates to HI-FI audio?

Yes, definetely get some more data, more analyzation, more, more, more, like a rebel yell, more, more, more.

RT1

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

I'm not blowing my own horn, but my hearing for whatever reason is much more sensitive than most in my shop of over 150 employees. Could be due to the hearing I have itself, or the fact I do listen to alot of music and have played instruments most of my life, so things of this nature are easier for me to understand and hear.

johnADA wrote:

So there it is, by your own admission, you can hear things they can't, why is it so hard for you to believe that people can hear the difference audio wires make????

johnADA wrote:

OK, I did say I tested out cables, but didnt list everything I had done with this setup that was borrowed. The only cable I referred to in anything I posted was a normal red-white audio cable to a better made blue jeans/mono price one, because it was the only one I could support to make a change.

John it appears to me that you are making your case based on what you've read and one test on an inexpensive Blue Jeans cable. How can you completly yell "Snake Oil?"

johnADA wrote:

That ontop of common sense left me to omit the power cable.

To say that is just wrong. Common sense tells me that you are closed minded. My electrical engineering backround commom sense tells me both yea and nay with power cords. So your common sense has more validity than mine? I don't think so. Both our common senses are based on experience, I seem to have more when dealing with listinging to changing out components in an audio rig and yes cables and wires are components.

johnADA wrote:

Open bare wired inside a case, in and area that has the large amount of interference that could be introduced for such a small area in the scheme of things, exiting the case to a SUPERIOR cable connected to a substandard per your terms power line, connected to a superhighway of substandard, squirrel chewed, radio interference induced power transmission lines to a noisy electrical substation and so on , would yield such dramatic differences in a 6 foot length or so.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now you are just quoting: http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm

My good ear hears up to over 19Khz, I feel the rest. My bad ear is another case entirely. Even though I am hearing impared in one ear, I can hear the differences, especially what a really good power cord can do. I'm done with this discussion with you because you have a closed mind and I'm not going to waste anymore time a self proclaimed common sense machine with a closed mind who believes instrument readings vs. his own hearing which by the way in your case seems to have been diminished because of your job.

You seem to think that I "want to hear" a difference. Well my friend, when I buy a tweak or a cable no one is more skeptical than I. I will test it over, under, sideways, down to make sure it is worth the investment. One tweak in particular that I was completely blow away with was a CD disc stabilizer, I didn't have to vigorously test it because the change was dramatic. The same occurs with some cables, power cords mainly.

BTW John, welcome to Club Polk. Please stick around you make for some good debating material no matter how closed minded it is.:)

TN_Polk_Lover

John,

First of all, I agree with RT1, welcome to the Polk Audio Forum. I've been a lurker around here for about 3 years, I don't post alot, mostly do a lot of reading.

If you hang around here, you'll find that your opinions on this subject are in the minority. There are just too many anecdotal stories of people here and in other places who do say they hear a difference between things like cables, speaker wire, power cords, etc. And most of these people don't have any reason to lie about it.

Sure, there are some people who have money to burn and go to their local Best Buy or Circuit City to buy a complete system. They will buy the most expensive (usually Monster Cable) cables because the salesman tells them that's what they need. They set it all up and they like their system and it sounds good to them. Yet, they never did any listening comparisons with the more expensive cable vs. the standard cables that come with the components. Now, if someone makes fun of them for spending so much on "expensive cables", they may make the claim that they sound better when in reality, they really haven't done a comparison. They are trying to "save face" or justify their purchase.

Sure, there is snake oil to be found out there in any industry. But when you have a consensus from alot of people about certain products, there has to be some reason for that consensus, even though, with our current technology and understanding of hearing and sound we may not know how to measure why product A sounds different than product B. Eventually, as science continues we may understand what makes A sound different from B and even come up with a way to measure that difference.

Again, welcome to this forum and hope that you don't get offended if the debate gets very, very spirited.

Robert

johnADA

The average new born to mid teen can hear 20-20K.
By the time middle age sets in, 60-14K is the norm.
At any age, the female is the one whom has the greatest range.
Males do not due to one, nature and secondly the hobbies, games etc we have tendancy's to get involved with.
Hearing tests are given in increments of 10db, starting at 10db.
So if someone here claims to have a 18K, he/she, specially a he is HIGHLY likely to be amplifying to hear such a tone. If you can hear that tone at 10db, you have no hearing loss. Each 10DB over that amount and your are suffering a hearing loss.
I can hear 13K 100% of the time at 10db, 14K less than 50% of the time at 10DB, but as the level goes up, I can still hear 20K, but only starting at 80db. Thats considered very poor, but not totally deaf per that tone frequency.
I have perfect hearing from the upper 30's to 13K, thats above average for a middle aged man which I fall into.

shack

I can hear as well as I need to all the time and as bad as I need to when my wife is talking to me.

Deadof_knight

Well you can wear ear plugs for alot of things ...Like when the wife is talking.... or all your hobbies or work except stereo.... even during concerts except for the really good songs and still enjoy everything life has to offer And you wont suffer that much Ive been using ear plugs since 20 and Ive scored very very good my hearing tests 37 now Gonna have to look at the last one to quote anything. Way better than average for 38 though....

reeltrouble1

Dragon is sending me a nice fat power cord, can't wait to get it in WoodShed Rack. Quality wire can help gear reach its potential.

RT1

F1nut

tonyb wrote:

Hmmmm......ya know.....
If I position a paperclip just right.....between my mercury induced
dental fillings.....I can get XM radio.:p

I understand if you use the coated paperclips, you'll get Sirrus.

hearingimpared

hearingimpared wrote:

My good ear hears up to over 19Khz, I feel the rest.

I get a hearing test twice a year. My last test showed the above in my left ear. I'm not interested in anymore of your stats John you have a closed mind. It's a shame too because there is so much more to this awesome hobby than instrument measurements and scope readings.

BTW here is a stat for you, I'm 51!!!

F1nut

hearingimpared wrote:

...there is so much more to this awesome hobby than instrument measurements and scope readings.

That's a fact and one that some folks never get. Sad, really.

hearingimpared

F1nut wrote:

That's a fact and one that some folks never get. Sad, really.

Right on Jess!

cstpeter

johnADA wrote:

The average new born to mid teen can hear 20-20K.
By the time middle age sets in, 60-14K is the norm.
At any age, the female is the one whom has the greatest range.
Males do not due to one, nature and secondly the hobbies, games etc we have tendancy's to get involved with.
Hearing tests are given in increments of 10db, starting at 10db.
So if someone here claims to have a 18K, he/she, specially a he is HIGHLY likely to be amplifying to hear such a tone. If you can hear that tone at 10db, you have no hearing loss. Each 10DB over that amount and your are suffering a hearing loss.
I can hear 13K 100% of the time at 10db, 14K less than 50% of the time at 10DB, but as the level goes up, I can still hear 20K, but only starting at 80db. Thats considered very poor, but not totally deaf per that tone frequency.
I have perfect hearing from the upper 30's to 13K, thats above average for a middle aged man which I fall into.

My hearing can kick your hearing's ****.

snow

There has been lots of interesting post on different audio tweaks and I suppose that we will never all agree on whether something works or not. I think that the key to all of this is to remain open minded. Even though I am skeptical about some claims, I will not rule out anything until i have heard or not heard the difference myself. To me it only makes sense that if you have a better power cord it should make a difference in the end result. For example if you were to use a cheap pair of jumper cables to attempt to jumpstart another vehicle it may take longer to get enough power through the cables to start the vehicle or it may not start at all with the cheaper cables. if the power that goes to your components flows better or if the power is cleaner no bumps or anamolys in it, or it has less interference from other outside influences due to shielding on the better power cord why shouldnt it allow the component to perform better hence sound better? Now as to whether the difference is noticeable or not is at best subjective and may vary wildy from home to home. But I am certainly not going to dismiss it as hocus pocus either. On a lighter note i knew a fellow that claimed if he sat a quart of milk on top of his cd player it sounded much better than if he didndt. I tried using a gallon on mine i figured if a quart helped a gallon ought to really improve the sound it didnt help. lmaoooooo REGARDS SNOW

F1nut

That's because you over damped it.

johnADA

OK, we have they work and they dont.
Don't has listed many variables of supporting data whether is be measurable, common sense, human audio abilites and so fourth.

Works has I say so. OK, YOU say so.
Will go on that premise and offer up as much more supporting data as you would like,
Here is one more
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

But they use some tact and allow a loop hole to exist, but I will not. You say I'm close minded, which is far from the truth, but I'm not open minded enough to jump off the Empire State building, when overwhelmingly its not smart move.

If what you say you hear has merit of any kind then the following would apply.
Your power tools would operate more efficiently and you would see a performance increase. Go change them.
Battery cables on cars.
TV power cords.
Computer power cords.
Hell any computer cable.
Coffee maker cords, why wait that extra millisecond.

I'll go even a step further.
Lets add larger i.d., better insulated pipes just before all water fixtures. Cleaner, more precise water flows!!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'll even personally ask J-Mac what is opinion is on these cables, but I have a hunch he is brighter than the believers here!!!!!!!!!

tonyb

This thread gives me a headache.
John...gives me a headache.

Ferres

johnADA wrote:

Your power tools would operate more efficiently and you would see a performance increase. Go change them.
Battery cables on cars.
TV power cords.
Computer power cords.
Hell any computer cable.
Coffee maker cords, why wait that extra millisecond.

I've used Isotek mains cables for Tv's and I get an average +5% increase in saturation, brightness and contrast. We're talking visual improvements now.

Some cables don't do squat for video. Maybe just adds brightness.

I use them on the AVR/UPS for the computer, have not tested but they do well on the monitors connected to it. (Note: some other brand cables may be bad for this, especially those thick ones) :rolleyes:

The Coffeemaker does not have an approriate resceptacle.

LuSh

Threads like this have really gotten me to thinking i Should sell my entire rig save for the speakers and just buy a Naim 5i amp and 5 series CD player and use all Naim cabling. I really wish I haven't heard differences in cabling as it would save me time into trying to figure out the best synergy combination. I'm getting too old for this nonsense.

reeltrouble1

LuSh wrote:

I'm getting too old for this nonsense.

+1
You know it Lush.

John ADA, JohnK, Anti HI-FI Audio Insurgents. The two of you give audio John's all over the world a bad name.

Next time I meet a lady of ill repute I am going with Hank.

We need more data John, stay on it, will you.

RT1

LuSh

I realy am thinking of selling my digital front end and Krell and just going all Naim, i wasn't joking the thought of just buying and enjoying music really appeals to me.

bikezappa

This topic of power cords and how they can improve the sound of your system has me confused. I thought otherwise. but I may be wrong. I frequently am. And if I am wrong I want to be set right. Let's examine the facts? What are the differences people have heard? Do we all hear the same changes in the system with the same power cord? Do some power cords degrade the system sound?

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

If what you say you hear has merit of any kind then the following would apply.
Your power tools would operate more efficiently and you would see a performance increase. Go change them.
Battery cables on cars.
TV power cords.
Computer power cords.
Hell any computer cable.
Coffee maker cords, why wait that extra millisecond.

I'll go even a step further.
Lets add larger i.d., better insulated pipes just before all water fixtures. Cleaner, more precise water flows!!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'll even personally ask J-Mac what is opinion is on these cables, but I have a hunch he is brighter than the believers here!!!!!!!!!

So not only do you insult us, you mock us also. . . You are a closed minded so and so. If you read the test result genius, 40 some percent got it right. . .that means that people do hear a difference. . . I would love to spew some explicatives at you but I think I am just adding you to my ignore list. . . I recommend that the rest of our and I paraphrase "non-bright" forum members place you on the ignore list.

See ya wouldn't want to be ya!!!

PolkWannabie

johnADA wrote:

... but I have a hunch he is brighter than the believers here!!!!!!!!!

It's not a matter of believing or not ... You either hear ( audio ) and/or see ( video ) differences preferably when someone else is in control of the swapping or you don't ...

If you don't then fine, end of story ... There's no need for you to convince the rest of the world, nor is there a need for the rest of the world to BELIEVE in what you say ...

snow

johnADA wrote:

I'm not open minded enough to jump off the Empire State building,
Your power tools would operate more efficiently and you would see a performance increase. Go change them.
Battery cables on cars.
TV power cords.
Computer power cords.
Hell any computer cable.
Coffee maker cords, why wait that extra millisecond.

I'll go even a step further.
Lets add larger i.d., better insulated pipes just before all water fixtures. Cleaner, more precise water flows!!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No one is asking you to jump off anything. even though a few im sure would like to see that happen now.:D Try using 24 gauge speaker wire instead of normal battery cables on your car see how far you get. Try not insulating your water pipes in an arctic condition and see what happens. In real life the better insulated cords are going to provide protection agaisnt interference. Next actually try some of these products yourself before you dismiss them. You will be a smarter person for it. Right now you are showing a lack of smarts for being closed minded. My father used to tell me son you cant learn anything when your mouth is open because your ears close shut when you talk. REGARDS SNOW

WilliamM2

If you read the test result genius, 40 some percent got it right. . .that means that people do hear a difference. . .

It doesn't say 40% got it right. It says that each participant got it right 40% to 60% of the time, one got it correct 70% of the time. About the same random results as the flip of a coin. The average was 49%...:rolleyes: