Power Cords realy help!

zombie boy 2000

Ain't it the truth HI...

My wife and I always try to get right up on stage at shows at smaller venues. Sometime you roll the dice on this and risk standing just enough to the side of the stage so as to be right in front of the speakers.

So besides being deaf after the performance, any attempt to match amplified sound with the creator of the same sound is next to impossible.

hearingimpared

zombie boy 2000 wrote:

Ain't it the truth HI...

My wife and I always try to get right up on stage at shows at smaller venues. Sometime you roll the dice on this and risk standing just enough to the side of the stage so as to be right in front of the speakers.

So besides being deaf after the performance, any attempt to match amplified sound with the creator of the same sound is next to impossible.

Thank goodness at the show I spoke of above the speakers were high above the stage or else we would have been deaf.

johnADA

hearingimpared wrote:

I think the differences in people's musical or audible tastes is what will come into play here. For example, high silver content cables have a brighter sound to them, some people prefer that bright sound so they would probably pick the cable that sounds bright to them even though they didn't know what cable was hooked up.

A good analogy here would be someone who has been brought up on CDs only and then hears a good analog recording. . . they don't like the analog because it doesn't SEEM to have the punch or range or is too "warm" compared the digital music they have been listening to has.

I'd hate to say this, but if a cable, as you state made a brighter sound, you'd measure that!!
That would be attenuating , measurable.

Now beyond that, individualism, the dirty word, subjectivity and the likes play more into the debate/arguments etc that occur on the boards.

Being out of the game for some 15 years and now the kids have grown up and on the way out, we decided as a household to get the things that once the kids would ruin. Having the net I pursued what I would want and need to be looking at. WOW, all I can say is WOW from what I was given to go on.

Bought something and after time didnt like them, Polk Speakers.
Decided instead of buying again and having some skills, lets build our own.

Went out to stores and listened intently for a sound I would want. Metal drivers are out, fatiguing on my ears no matter how implemented. Horn tweeters are in my face, not ears. Poly and any other off type woofers just dont replicate as I hear it. So we picked a set of drivers accordingly with some other factors thrown in.

Asked around for some input as to crossovers, dam here we go again. Found someone locally through a friend that offered some help, a program, CD's with all kids of tones and frequency runs along with a mic. He made my crossover using a radio shack type slinky board as to not ruin the crossover pieces or disturb them in any way. I asked to borrow this stuff for 2 weeks and got and OK.

First order crossovers allthough you can graph a slight change, YOU CANT HEAR IT.
Second order to first order, you can see and hear, but between second types, CANT HEAR IT.
And so on.

Zobel networks, you can HEAR IT and measure it.

L-Pads, you can hear it and measure it, but you can hear it degrade sound over a series pad to the tweeter and both are measurable This could be a taste thing!!!

Notch filters, measure but couldnt HEAR IT.

My crossover against his measured different and sounded totally different. His had a + or - 1 DB throughout, sounded flat, lifeless. Mine a second order butterworth, zobel and series paded tweeter has life and sounded better. Taste thing!!

Spikes, OK, they dont do squat!! Bull!!!!! I measured it with and without, 2 different graphs. We have spikes and they aint for tipover, for what been called muddy removal.

Tested my 18 gauge 35 foot wire runs against 10 gauge. CANT HEAR IT or measure it.

Swapped out cheap, they came with the units cables against the mono priced and blue jeans I had gotten. Some measured, some didnt, some I heard and others I didnt. What measured and heard was white and red cheapo cables against good ones, what didnt was Toslink, HDMI connects.

I'm going to build a new setup, for a new room since I have this inheritance coming. Budget, well alot more than enough and the wife just wants certain things and as long as they are in place, it doesnt matter what I do.

Timing could not have been better to have this device to play with.

Now we know whats bull and truth so we can make sure the room is correct within reason.

What did I learn?
Most all hear-able audible changes can be measured.
Some, since so subtle, while can be measured, you cannot hear them.
Some while you can both hear and measure them, SUBJECTIVITY is in order to describe them.
If you can hear it and not have a measurable outcome, well, JEDI mind trick!!

shack

So what have you proved? Nothing.

johnADA

shack wrote:

So what have you proved? Nothing.

I could go and hope that this laptop I borrowed still had the graphs saved on them and posted them up as proof. But then again I could get you made those up.


I proved that there is no proof that can be majority accepted any where on audio/video forums in the world.

People will believe what they believe based upon as many variables as they are equipment.


This hobby is HIGHLY subjective, even though some believe subjectivity is a form of stupidity on the users end like Zaph's site suggests.

I proved that this forum, all though while it should be Polk owners or people helping out along the lines of Polk products is a click of CABLE believers, whilst other sites are not!!!

zombie boy 2000

johnADA wrote:

I proved that this forum, all though while it should be Polk owners or people helping out along the lines of Polk products is a click of CABLE believers, whilst other sites are not!!!

Imagine that... a forum that actually thinks outside of the box. And doesn't just serve as some organic corporate cheerleader for the sponsoring company:rolleyes: Considering the sheer variety of gear and opinions (both audio and non-audio) represented on this forum, I would hardly consider us "clicky". Please do a search on "speaker cable" to see just how "clicky" things can become.

Ferres

People here are practical and pragmatic about their equipment, cables included. They don't talk about $5000+ cables. Only good quality ones that do make a difference, if it's cheap, then all the better.

Arguing between measured graphs and personal experiences. People will instinctively go with personal experience all the time.

F1nut

johnADA wrote:

This is what is so entertaining about this hobby.
The fact you can try, with the mind, sway outcomes and defend on how well your hearing can detect things, but yet be connected to the brain which is looking for a difference.

Your example of a beginner against a seasoned pro has NADA bearing on the arguement.

If you cannot hear and instrument clearly or not at all. You then are having a problem with a certian frequency range being down in DB. YOU CAN measure that.

I just did a frequency sweep using YOUR receiver/CD player or whatever, with MIRACLE CABLE and it could play X frequency ( same as the instrument you couldnt hear before) with and audible to hearing amount. I then swap back to MR Cheapo cable it and still can play X frequency, with the same audible hearing amount, your telling me I wont hear that instrument anymore, which I just proved your system could duplicate.


If you are hearing distortion induced by a cable, it plays through the speakers and then add a new cable and its not there, IT MEASURABLE.

If at a setting of let say 50% power, you measure the speakers and its puts out X, add a new cable and it puts out Y at the same 50% which you did not move at all, ITS MEASURABLE.

Once down the path to the dark side!!!!! Get it????

WTF are you talking about??? Are you on medication or what? Seriously, you're not making any sense. Where did I say anything about not being able to hear an instrument?

F1nut

johnADA wrote:

I could go and hope that this laptop I borrowed still had the graphs saved on them and posted them up as proof. But then again I could get you made those up.


I proved that there is no proof that can be majority accepted any where on audio/video forums in the world.

People will believe what they believe based upon as many variables as they are equipment.


This hobby is HIGHLY subjective, even though some believe subjectivity is a form of stupidity on the users end like Zaph's site suggests.

I proved that this forum, all though while it should be Polk owners or people helping out along the lines of Polk products is a click of CABLE believers, whilst other sites are not!!!

AGH!!! The only thing you've proven is that you're very good at making yourself look silly.

F1nut

Can your ears distinguish between the rich tone of a Stradivarius vs. a regular violin???? What spl meter or frequency reading device can tell the difference between the two, none.

BINGO!!! We have a winner.

disneyjoe7

Wire is Wire....


If you believe this than you are in the wrong forum.

PolkThug

I suppose the voice recognition software that the FBI uses can't really tell the differences between two peoples' voices when they say "audio sucks", since tone, pitch and harmonics can't be measured. :rolleyes:

If a Stradivari has different harmonics than a modern violin, then those harmonics are indeed measureable.

Jesse, I've seen you've recommend MIT Cables a few times. They've published more about measuring differences in cables than any cable manufacturer I've seen. It can't all be hogwash can it? Check out their "white papers" on their website.

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

I'd hate to say this, but if a cable, as you state made a brighter sound, you'd measure that!!
That would be attenuating , measurable.

Now beyond that, individualism, the dirty word, subjectivity and the likes play more into the debate/arguments etc that occur on the boards.

Being out of the game for some 15 years and now the kids have grown up and on the way out, we decided as a household to get the things that once the kids would ruin. Having the net I pursued what I would want and need to be looking at. WOW, all I can say is WOW from what I was given to go on.

Bought something and after time didnt like them, Polk Speakers.
Decided instead of buying again and having some skills, lets build our own.

Went out to stores and listened intently for a sound I would want. Metal drivers are out, fatiguing on my ears no matter how implemented. Horn tweeters are in my face, not ears. Poly and any other off type woofers just dont replicate as I hear it. So we picked a set of drivers accordingly with some other factors thrown in.

Asked around for some input as to crossovers, dam here we go again. Found someone locally through a friend that offered some help, a program, CD's with all kids of tones and frequency runs along with a mic. He made my crossover using a radio shack type slinky board as to not ruin the crossover pieces or disturb them in any way. I asked to borrow this stuff for 2 weeks and got and OK.

First order crossovers allthough you can graph a slight change, YOU CANT HEAR IT.
Second order to first order, you can see and hear, but between second types, CANT HEAR IT.
And so on.

Zobel networks, you can HEAR IT and measure it.

L-Pads, you can hear it and measure it, but you can hear it degrade sound over a series pad to the tweeter and both are measurable This could be a taste thing!!!

Notch filters, measure but couldnt HEAR IT.

My crossover against his measured different and sounded totally different. His had a + or - 1 DB throughout, sounded flat, lifeless. Mine a second order butterworth, zobel and series paded tweeter has life and sounded better. Taste thing!!

Spikes, OK, they dont do squat!! Bull!!!!! I measured it with and without, 2 different graphs. We have spikes and they aint for tipover, for what been called muddy removal.

Tested my 18 gauge 35 foot wire runs against 10 gauge. CANT HEAR IT or measure it.

Swapped out cheap, they came with the units cables against the mono priced and blue jeans I had gotten. Some measured, some didnt, some I heard and others I didnt. What measured and heard was white and red cheapo cables against good ones, what didnt was Toslink, HDMI connects.

I'm going to build a new setup, for a new room since I have this inheritance coming. Budget, well alot more than enough and the wife just wants certain things and as long as they are in place, it doesnt matter what I do.

Timing could not have been better to have this device to play with.

Now we know whats bull and truth so we can make sure the room is correct within reason.

What did I learn?
Most all hear-able audible changes can be measured.
Some, since so subtle, while can be measured, you cannot hear them.
Some while you can both hear and measure them, SUBJECTIVITY is in order to describe them.
If you can hear it and not have a measurable outcome, well, JEDI mind trick!!

One consistent thing you said throughout this whole discertation was "you can or can't HEAR IT" not to be a wise guy here but I think a proper and accurate way for YOU to say this is, "I can't/can hear it." You may or may not hear it, I may, hearing impared and all may or may not hear it, anyone else on this "clicky" forum may or may not hear it. Because you didn't hear something doesn't mean that someone else can't. Because you WON'T hear it is what I think the issue here is. I love these debates.

Let me reiterate. I buy a new set of ICs, I place it in my rig, I let it burn in, I listen to it with reference material and do critical listening sessions, if I hear a difference and like it I switch back to my original and check if I like the new cable's sound in the rig, I keep it, if I don't hear a difference or don't like what I hear, I return it for my money back. . . see it's that simple.:)

PolkThug

There is some good reading out there about theories of why Stradivari's violins sound better.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0107_040107_violin.html

read-alot

The white paper thing sold me after Jesse slapped me around a little.

MIT makes a difference in my 2 channel rig.

hearingimpared

PolkThug wrote:

I suppose the voice recognition software that the FBI uses can't really tell the differences between two peoples' voices when they say "audio sucks", since tone, pitch and harmonics can't be measured. :rolleyes:

If a Stradivari has different harmonics than a modern violin, then those harmonics are indeed measureable.

Jesse, I've seen you've recommend MIT Cables a few times. They've published more about measuring differences in cables than any cable manufacturer I've seen. It can't all be hogwash can it? Check out their "white papers" on their website.

Thuggy, I didn't say tone, pitch or harmonics can't be measured. I don't think the naysayers are doing their "testing" with voice recognition software or the elaborate equipment that you are refering to above.

Actually I wish they would use that equipment because then they would have to admit that cables, whether they are ICs, speaker wires, or power cords DO make a difference.

hearingimpared

PolkThug wrote:

There is some good reading out there about theories of why Stradivari's violins sound better.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0107_040107_violin.html

Well Thuggy my friend you just proved why some cable manufacturers freeze and then bake their cables before distribution to the public.:p They are trying to recreate that marvelous effect that drove Stadivari!:D

johnADA

Ferres wrote:

When I'm testing out a cable for the system. I listen to a specific instrument that is not very audible in the background of a track. Then I switch out the cables and see if I can find that instrument again.

Another is listen to the voice of the performer and try to place his/her location in the soundstage. Did he move forward or back when you switched cables.

For movies, track down the dialogue which is most difficult to understand and do the same.

You could also check out increase or decrease in base responses.

Right here F1 nut.

You have someone implying a change in tonal quality, which would refer to it being more pronounced or denouced. Thats not measurable??


""Thuggy, I didn't say tone, pitch or harmonics can't be measured. I don't think the naysayers are doing their "testing" with voice recognition software or the elaborate equipment that you are refering to above.

Actually I wish they would use that equipment because then they would have to admit that cables, whether they are ICs, speaker wires, or power cords DO make a difference.""


That would solve this debate once and for all, wouldnt it!!!
But think of the lawsuits of people jailed, that now want new trials because and X cable didnt pass the tests!!!

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

That would solve this debate once and for all, wouldnt it!!!

I'm not sure how to answer you here (even though I was talking to Thuggy), you end your sentance with exclamation points but the sentance asks a question. Are you making a statement or asking a question.

johnADA wrote:

But think of the lawsuits of people jailed, that now want new trials because and X cable didnt pass the tests!!!

What the heck are you talking about?

johnADA

hearingimpared wrote:

I'm not sure how to answer you here (even though I was talking to Thuggy), you end your sentance with exclamation points but the sentance asks a question. Are you making a statement or asking a question.



What the heck are you talking about?

Statement!!!!


"""Thuggy, I didn't say tone, pitch or harmonics can't be measured. I don't think the naysayers are doing their "testing" with voice recognition software or the elaborate equipment that you are refering to above."""

If voice recognition was involved to prove or disprove how and inter connect was or wasnt accurate and it was found cables were not, but some are. Well wouldnt that be a lawsuit in the making if you were put in prison based off voice recognition software that used a failing inter connect. It wasnt me, I told you that deal!!!

Now we have MIT white papers as support.

How about a rebuttal.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm

They have something on interconnects!!!

Short version, once cables meet a certain requirement, the rest is snake oil.
I stated that some cables are just piss poor and show it, beyond that!!!!!!

Ferres

I should elaborate.

Choose a barely audible instrument and see how well it is defined/separated compaired to the other instruments. It's not about the volume or db's.

I choose the barely audible instrument because they tend to get swamped by other louder instruments in a track. The test is how defined the sound is coming from that particular instrument. This way, the tester can focus on one sound and not worry too much about the accurracy of their 'musical memory'.

Distinct audible separation of instruments in a concert setting is what I am referring to. I don't care what brand the cable is as long as it does the job.
:P

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

How about a rebuttal.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm

They have something on interconnects!!!

Short version, once cables meet a certain requirement, the rest is snake oil.
I stated that some cables are just piss poor and show it, beyond that!!!!!!

I've read everything on his website several times. I have an electronic engineering backround myself and would be inclined to agree with him but I can't because I have witnessed for myself first hand the differences in cables and tweaks and by the way you are dead wrong about spikes not having any affect on anything. . . You may come to my home anytime and I will take my brass MYE Sound Points off my speakers and let you hear my 1.2 TLs without them and then with them. . . I also have a 25 lb bag of #9 lead shot on top of each speaker. . . I suppose I could take that off too while you are here so you can hear the difference it makes.

Let me ask you this question. . . if cables don't make any difference in sound because wires are wires then how is it that a piece of electronic gear can burn out??? as in resistors shorting or opening, transistors going bad etc etc etc. . . doesn't electrical current cause electrical devices to wear out. . .that being said how can electrical current NOT have an affect on cables which carry and audio signal???

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

Statement!!!!

If voice recognition was involved to prove or disprove how and inter connect was or wasnt accurate and it was found cables were not, but some are. Well wouldnt that be a lawsuit in the making if you were put in prison based off voice recognition software that used a failing inter connect. It wasnt me, I told you that deal!!!

I don't know maybe I'm just having a bad retarded head day but I still don't understand your statement above. Could you clean up the sentance structure please? I'm not being a wise guy here I just can't make sense of what you wrote.

PolkThug

hearingimpared wrote:

Well Thuggy my friend you just proved why some cable manufacturers freeze and then bake their cables before distribution to the public.:p They are trying to recreate that marvelous effect that drove Stadivari!:D

Pretty cool, huh? The bottom line is you need to choose good wood. :eek:

hearingimpared

PolkThug wrote:

Pretty cool, huh? The bottom line is you need to choose good wood. :eek:

Yep good wood is what we all need especially after 50. LOL;)

Where have you been this other guy is wearing me out!!!:rolleyes:

F1nut

Look John, if you're going to quote someone, then please do it properly. The way you wrote the post I was questioning makes it look like I was the one whom said something about not being able to hear an instrument? I'm sorry that I took that one the wrong way. However, I stand by my other comment that you're not making any sense.

F1nut

PolkThug wrote:

I suppose the voice recognition software that the FBI uses can't really tell the differences between two peoples' voices when they say "audio sucks", since tone, pitch and harmonics can't be measured. :rolleyes:

If a Stradivari has different harmonics than a modern violin, then those harmonics are indeed measureable.

Jesse, I've seen you've recommend MIT Cables a few times. They've published more about measuring differences in cables than any cable manufacturer I've seen. It can't all be hogwash can it? Check out their "white papers" on their website.

Yet, it's my understanding that those devices can be fooled. However, I could be wrong. I'll bet Jstas knows the answer, just as he knows about everything else on earth. :rolleyes:

Got proof??? LOL

I never said it's all hogwash. Merely that testing/measurements are not the end all, your ears are. So, trust your ears and nothing else.


Read-alot......:)

TheReaper

Some work on duplicating the Stradivarius sound:

http://www.schleske.de/08veroeffentlichungen/cas_empirical_tools_part_I.pdf
http://www.schleske.de/08veroeffentlichungen/cas_empirical_tools_part_II.pdf

PolkThug

TheReaper wrote:

Some work on duplicating the Stradivarius sound:

http://www.schleske.de/08veroeffentlichungen/cas_empirical_tools_part_I.pdf
http://www.schleske.de/08veroeffentlichungen/cas_empirical_tools_part_II.pdf

Awesome links, I dig it! That is some hardcore objective measuring going on there. :cool:

hearingimpared

PolkThug wrote:

Awesome links, I dig it! That is some hardcore objective measuring going on there. :cool:

I agree, I just scanned through all the pages, I can't wait to sit and spend an hour or two reading this very, very interesting stuff.:cool: