The curse of the Treitz, expanding a networking journey

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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    I would be willing to bet 5 dollars you would experience a dramatic improvement
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 2,967
    10:1 ?
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 298
    Fellas, I'm nearly ready to jump on the muon filter, but before that, I've got a modem/router powered by a wall wart. I almost got a 12V Teradak for it, but took a last look at the modem manufacturer's statement cautioning against replacing the stock power supply. Is that anything I need to be concerned about?
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    Nope, just make sure everything is correct polarity, voltage and amperage!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    So, I sat down to listen tonight for an extended period. Listened to many genre's of music. The Muon Pro brought me that much closer to having live musicians in the room with me. I had mentioned before about in Trey's system, wanting to go back and shake the hand of the piano player behind the speakers right?

    Well, there is something that the Muon does that makes the piano sound eerily real. Does it sound like a "real" piano? Of course not. But with that said, it's the closest I have ever heard from any system I have ever laid my ears on. Both on Trey's system and mine. So, it's obviously repeatable.

    Trey and I went completely different routes with our streaming setup but (again), we both have achieved the same goal. I had already heard much of what the Muon offered because the Shunyata E cables I had already filtered the signal (x3 in my setup) via the cables but the Muon Pro took that and expanded on it in ways I didn't think possible.

    Palpability. Micro and macro dynamics.

    Those two are probably the two biggest things I heard out of the unit (even though it does so much more than that). The past 4 or 5 days have been sheer H. E. Double hockey sticks because of the ups and downs but the sheer cleanliness of the signal has brought into fruition some extremely exceptional musical reproduction.

    I'll put it to you this way. I have had the new (to me) Lampizator DAC and I haven't really felt the need to put it in. Will it help? Oh, I am confident it will but I really am enjoying what I am hearing without it. It's like I have already installed the DAC. The reason I know this is because Trey and Rick brought over the ANK 4.1 DAC to my house and we hooked it up into the system. So, I know what a great DAC can do and what the changes are/can be.

    RS and Dr. Wu, if you are on the fence? Get off it and get 'er done. They do offer a 30 day return policy but I have pretty damned good and solid confidence that you will not be returning it. Just don't even bother to listen during the first 4 days you hook it up. The sound goes all over the place and the ups and downs make you want to pull your hair out. Seriously. But it's worth the wait.

    I don't know what they do in that filter and I don't care. Whatever they do will bring a whole new level of listening enjoyment to your ears. I will say this, the Shunyata E cables did not take more than maybe 2-4 hours to settle in. They were ready to rock after that with no discernible change to anything. With that said, those are much more expensive than the Muon or Muon Pro (I needed 3 E cables to complete my streaming setup) but Shunyata burns them in on a KPIP system for 4 days at the factory before being sent out.

    The Muon in Trey's system made a change that was stunning to listen too. There was a huge difference in what I heard the last time I had visited and after he had the Muon settled in. Granted, he did some other things to his rig other than the Muon but after hearing what the filters did to my system and knowing the changes, I knew what to expect. It offered enough to where I went ahead and ordered one.

    Even though it did not make as big of a difference in my rig? It was worth every penny. The clarity and presentation are wonderful to experience.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    c3wvl3pyoz31.jpg
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 7,931
    Please explain to me the what micro dynamics are with concrete examples. As in what are you hearing when you hear the micro dynamics of a grand piano or acoustic guitar. I’m really curious…
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
    Game Room 5.1.4:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra

    Bedroom 2.1
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    Think about when you hear a piano, you had a hammer striking a string. The hammer provides an impact and then there is the following decay. That decay and initial strike will activate the room and then that will decay.

    A really good setup will capture all of those aspects (with a proper recording of course).

    What is unique about the song Tom is describing, the capture of that strike and decay is amazingly reproduced and is placed very very far back in the soundstage so that you can "sense" the space the actual recording was recorded in. You can feel the reverb of the room and everything.

    I find these aspects happen as you move beyond "sounds" and move into "body/spatiality". That is what is hard to explain to folks that have never heard it, the new HIFI sound is details... hearing all of these little attributes to the music but theres no weight or scale to it. Its like musical wallpaper with maybe some wide staging and good height.

    Not really sure how else to explain it but ultimately when I listen I aim for my system to kind of sound like a Vortex and I am in the middle of everything. I want far left/right staging to be 3 or 4 feet in front of the speakers and on the outer edges or outside the room. I want things that are far away to be far away and I want the singer/center to be right in front of me. Most importantly I want to hear the "scale" of the venue, the reverb. When I am listening, every inch of the room (L/W/H) is a part of the mix. I am in the middle of the mix, not in front of it.

    I have heard very few systems accomplish that feat.

    Hope this makes sense!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    This is the track - https://tidal.com/browse/track/212202553

    When I listen to it on my office rig it literally just sounds like someone is hitting a piano key... theres nothing special to it.

    On the big rig it literally feels like I can sense the size, scale of the piano, where the pianist is sitting, the room size it was recorded in, the decay of the notes, etc etc
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    That's more macro dynamics but Trey nailed describing that aspect.

    I had written a response in detail and Vanilla apparently didn't save my response when I went to go check on what the newest response was on this thread (weird because it always has). Lesson learned. I'll have to retype it but it won't be tonight.

    I have a date with the pillow.

    Might even make a new thread about it tomorrow, as that is a different subject and IMO, is worth discussing in greater detail.... ;)

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 298
    Tom, would it be difficult for you to remove the ER from your rig, to compare the SQ before and after? Reason I ask is that Hans B's utube test of the eno filter system with the ER suggested the eno was better alone. I think he may have fed the eno to the ER, not the other way around, as I think you have it. Thanks for your thoughts, whether you do it or not!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    @treitz3 see above
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 298
    Thanks Trey. To be fair, Hans actually said he preferred the filter w/o the ER; not that it was better that way.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Yup, got it. Just have to wrap up my "adult" chores first. Yesterday was busy and I still have a few hours to go today.

    Might be able to try different configurations tomorrow night or over the weekend. It's not easy because I have to do the human pretzel but I am all for experimenting.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 298
    I appreciate it more than you know, Tom! Whenever, and thank you!
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,269
    I am curious as well with and without the EtherREGEN
    Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300, Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable, Tyler Highland H2, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    rooftop59 wrote: »
    Please explain to me the what micro dynamics are with concrete examples. As in what are you hearing when you hear the micro dynamics of a grand piano or acoustic guitar. I’m really curious…

    My apologies for the delay. My workload got heavy toward the tail end of the week. To answer your inquiry, I’ll try to describe it to the best of my ability.

    It all starts with a very low noise floor but even with a low noise floor, one still might not be able to render micro dynamics well. The rest is up to your system, system synergy, your room and your ears. The other aspect is obviously the recording. Compression kills micro and macro dynamics.
    Micro dynamics on a piano would be being able to hear the individual reverb of a string(s), the sound of the piano player moving the pedals or striking a key softly. Almost as if you can hear the pad hit the string itself on a soft passage. Hearing or being able to detect subtle dynamic changes with the keystrokes (soft or hard hits, are the pedals being used?) whether or not the passage is during a busy one or not so busy…as in just the piano player playing. Are they playing forte, a diminuendo or are they doing a crescendo? Being able to pick up on these things during the reproduction (unless obvious) simply adds to the realism/palpability of the passage/playback.

    Once in a while, on a great/superb recording, you easily pick up on the eco within chamber (body) of the piano and echo off of the top board of a grand, while still being able to detect/observe the reflections of the size of the venue the piano is in as well. All of these are subtle nuances that (if heard) can bring you that much closer to palpability of the piano player and the instrument itself…instead of “just” hearing the notes played back.
    Moving onto the guitar micro dynamics…
    With regards to an acoustic guitar - Can you “hear” the wood or just the note(s)? Can you hear the harmonics inside the body of the guitar, reflecting and radiating around the image? This is (to me) micro dynamics and allows you to, instead of hearing the guitar, you actually “see the guitar”. You'll be able to hear it in the mix clearly regardless of what other instruments are doing. It will have the same tonal characteristics, harmonics, as if it was playing by itself.
    Being able to hear very subtle finger slides on the fret or hearing a finger softly hit a fret or finger(s) hitting the fret strings to stop/change the reverb of the string(s) playing. Being able to hear when the hand or palm accidently or purposely hits the body of said guitar to produce a subtle (sometimes overpowering) “drum beat”, if you will. This is not always an intended sound but it is part of the recording.
    It's merely as an additional level of audible resolution on a very subtle degree of listening. At the end of the day (IMO), you don’t want micro-dynamics to get overpowered by the macro dynamics or vice versa. It’s a balancing act, if you will.

    @Dr_Wu - He is doing things bass ackwards. The ER should be BEFORE the Muon. This, at least to the manufacturer's instructions. This is currently how I have things configured.

    With that said, I have a conundrum. I'd like to do as you and Brian (@erniejade) requested but after 2 long months, I finally got in Brad's RAL umbilical's for my amplifier. While he did cook them, their may be another burn in period and I'd like to get that started. Once they stabilize (hopefully soon), I'd love to do exactly what you both requested....with the Lampi DAC in the system as well.

    Please be patient on that aspect but trust me, I will get around to it as I have no more new gear coming in within the near future. The RAL umbilical's should have been in the system already but the first set he sent me was shorter than they needed to be, so I had to return the original set and start over on the waiting list. They just hit the household earlier this afternoon.

    I still have not forgotten about your inquiry about disabling the external clock for the ER to hear what differences that makes. I just have too many things going on with the rig right now.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    No more new gear?

    This forum needs a remind me feature... This post will not age well!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 298
    Tom, no problem whatsoever! Those RALs need 150-200 hours. I just muted speakers and left them on 24/7. Love the result!
    And, yes, I thought the same thing when I saw Hans' set-up.
    Best to you, brother!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Please be patient on that aspect but trust me, I will get around to it as I have no more new gear coming in within the near future.

    @VR3 - actual quote sukkkafooo. :D
    treitz3 wrote: »
    I have no more new gear coming in within the near future.

    Well apparently I lied. It appears as if a tube has gone bad in my pre. I am getting a buzz"ish" kind of sound out of the left channel. R channel is fine.

    I have a spare set of signal tubes but it's back to the human pretzel thing for the weekend. The pre and the PS for it ain't light and there are many connections. If the signal tubes don't work out? I guess I'll be talking to Brent Jesse again come Monday and yet (another) shipment will be on it's way. Such is life.

    Sorry guys. This was an unexpected twist. Grrr.

    No one EVER stated that this hobby was cheap! Dag nabbit! I'll be up and running shortly....just gonna take a little bit more time than I planned on.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Dr_Wu wrote: »
    Those RALs need 150-200 hours.

    ...and the hits just keep on a' comin'. DOH!

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    7:44pm to 10:44pm...

    3 hours!

    A new record!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,269
    Brad uses a cable cooker, but when I got the umbilical for the tri-vista, I did notice a difference after a week of it playing straight. Same with the usb and Ethernet cable. Even when I have bought used cables, I find it takes it a few days for a cable to settle in and the sound changes.
    Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300, Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable, Tyler Highland H2, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,077
    VR3 wrote: »
    This is the track - https://tidal.com/browse/track/212202553

    When I listen to it on my office rig it literally just sounds like someone is hitting a piano key... theres nothing special to it.

    On the big rig it literally feels like I can sense the size, scale of the piano, where the pianist is sitting, the room size it was recorded in, the decay of the notes, etc etc

    Trey, I found the album on Qobuz . . . . which track on that LP is the one with piano decay

    Is this the filter ya'll are talking about/the one I cannot live without?

    https://www.networkacoustics.com/shop/muon-pro-ethernet-filter/

    For Gods sake, I'm trying to downsize and this rabbit hole opens up!!
    AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampi Baltic 4
    Pre Cary SLP-05
    Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
    Mains Salk HT2-TL
    Rythmik F12
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    I'm using the standard muon, which is caps at 100 mbps

    The pro is if you need up to 1 gbps
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,077
    treitz3 wrote: »
    I have had the new (to me) Lampizator DAC and I haven't really felt the need to put it in. Will it help? Oh, I am confident it will but I really am enjoying what I am hearing without it. It's like I have already installed the DAC. The reason I know this is because Trey and Rick brought over the ANK 4.1 DAC to my house and we hooked it up into the system. So, I know what a great DAC can do and what the changes are/can be.
    Tom

    I don't recall the details in that Lampi (or what preceded Engine 53 for that matter) . . .

    is it R2R ? or what identifying numbered chip is it?

    TIA
    AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampi Baltic 4
    Pre Cary SLP-05
    Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
    Mains Salk HT2-TL
    Rythmik F12
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    Love tastes like strawberries
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 2,967
    I think 100mbps is the max needed for digital audio playback.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,900
    Some devices need gigabit, just depends on the device and what you are doing with it. I believe roon requires gigabit, but I could be wrong
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.