The curse of the Treitz, expanding a networking journey

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    With my Node 3, I ordered another ethernet cable
    VR3 wrote: »
    That switch is a rip off, just a netgear switch with a linear power supply in a fancy chassis.

    I am running the netgear s8000 l, picked up for 80 on ebay.

    I am running it on a 100 dollar Linear power supply.

    I will probably run that until network acoustics releases their switch, which should come with a high end click and linear power supply

    So, you're not running a wireless router? Can I assume the router and what you're calling a "switcher" are one in the same? Or is this in addition to a wireless router?

    This is the wireless router I am running, now with a hard connection to the Node3

    https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-R6700-Nighthawk-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B00R2AZLD2/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2JCYEIPDCHT3U&keywords=netgear+r6700+wireless&qid=1674407322&s=electronics&sprefix=netgear+r6700+wireless,electronics,106&sr=1-2&th=1

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
    edited January 2023
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    So a wireless mesh system has hardwire hook ups on each hub

    My system is modem > ethernet > mesh router main uub > ethernet > switch > ethernet/filter > streamer

    Also thst router is very old, it would be very out of date to today's standards

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
    edited January 2023
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    Then his filter is right before the streamer...[ edited to reflect this ]

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    VR3 wrote: »
    So a wireless mesh system has hardwire hook ups on each hub

    My system is modem > ethernet > mesh router main uub > ethernet > switch > ethernet/filter > streamer

    Also thst router is very old, it would be very out of date to today's standards

    My wireless router is old?

    Thanks for the input.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
    edited January 2023
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    Modems and routers should be replaced every 5 years in my experience. The one you linked was released 2014
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    VR3 wrote: »
    Modems and routers should be replaced every 5 years in my experience. The one you linked was released 2014

    I can see that. I bought in 2019, and it seems about every 5-6 years there's issues which usually are solved by purchasing new. Or simply to get a bit newer tech or functions.

    I guess if I really want to do this right (and I do because I'm anal) then I should start from the beginning.

    Right now the cable service inlet is in a bedroom off the living room that I use as a home office. That cable runs into an older Motorola Surfboard modem. Out the modem into to above mentioned Wireless router via ethernet. Then into a desktop PC. Also out the above wireless router a 30' run of shielded cat6 to a Tripplite surge suppressor then to the Node3. (see my other thread about ground loop hum with the ethernet plugged it).

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
    edited January 2023
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    I highly recommend the netgear nighthawk mesh with the netgear nighthawk cm cable modem.

    The mesh system will remove that 30 ft cable... I think it's advantageous to keep your ethernet runs short

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    NETGEAR Nighthawk Tri-band Whole Home Mesh WiFi 6 System (MK83) AX3600 Router with 2 Satellite Extenders, Coverage up to 6,750 sq. ft. and 40+ devices https://a.co/d/cSmYLft

    NETGEAR Nighthawk Multi-Gig Cable Modem CM2000 - Compatible with all Cable Providers incl. Xfinity, Spectrum, Cox | For Cable Plans Up to 2.5Gbps | DOCSIS 3.1 https://a.co/d/gXDPNov

    I have that modem available if you are interested for $125 shipped 😁
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    I would snag it! I am using the same one. That's priced to move...

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    VR3 wrote: »
    I highly recommend the netgear nighthawk mesh with the netgear nighthawk cm cable modem.

    The mesh system will remove that 30 ft cable... I think it's advantageous to keep your ethernet runs short

    So what I gather is by using a mesh system the main communicates with the hubs wirelessly and then you hook the hub up to the device (Node3) via ethernet. So there is still a component of wireless in the mix? Or are the hubs hard wired via ethernet?

    Sorry for all the basic questions, but with the SQB Touch it was wireless and w/a linear PS I thought it sounded fantastic. I was planning on the same set-up with the Node 3 (wireless) but I'm hearing hard wired via ethernet is better?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    You can hard wire the mother unit to the satellites or do it wirelessly. Your choice.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
    edited January 2023
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    The mesh system provides three wireless and wired access points, hence the mesh.

    One connection on a wireless devices and simultaneously access 3 hubs as you move around.

    The main hub has 4 wired hook ups and the satellites have 2 wired hook ups.

    I can be a football field away from my house and still have one bar of wifi signal
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    My house is small, so I don't need wireless satellites all over. My main rig sits on the wall that is shared by the bedroom/office. Literally a straight line from the wireless router to the Node 3 is about 6 feet. The wall is obviously in the way

    Perhaps the solution is to install an ethernet wall plate on both sides of the shared wall and go wired that way. Probably the best solution for this house based on where all the gear is in relation to each other.

    The 30' e cable I am running now runs from the router, across the floor to the shared wall, then along the base board, out the doorway and run along the base board on the opposite side of the shared wall and then up into the Node 3.

    20' was probably to short so I had to go 30' and there is about 2-3' extra.

    With the wall plates, the first e cable would be about 6'. The second cable would be probably be about 2-3'

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,046
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    In the end, doesn't local DSD rule??? Are we talking about 2nd place here?
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    I love streaming tidal, I have no desires to purchase HD tracks to store on a drive or a network.

    As far as long ethernet cables... Imo, avoid it at all cost.

    2m or shorter would be my goal. All of mine are 1.5m
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    Ok, ill come out and say it

    I don't care what anyone says, investing in your network to clean up and refine those 1s and 0s is a must.

    The muon filter system is easily one of the best purchases I have ever made for my rig.

    You must purchase it.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    VR3 wrote: »
    The muon filter system is easily one of the best purchases I have ever made for my rig.

    Coming from a person who, on the OP of this thread stated, and I quote....
    VR3 wrote: »
    So Tom has been tearing up the forum on networking gear and I figured heck why not throw my hat in the ring and see what exactly could be accomplished on this front, keeping in mind my BS flag is overwhelmingly high in this area.

    So what you are saying here is that the BS flag is no longer flying?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    I think if you are wanting to try different thing you have to have your BS flag up high.

    There are ALOT of money grabbing companies in this hobby. Folks gluing crystals on to circuit boards and labeling it audiophile... Ya know scams!

    There are elgit products from legit companies out there that are absolutely worth checking out.

    There is much more to digital than 1s and 0s... No question about it
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,046
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    I don't want to imply that I influenced Trey into trying the Muon filter, but I think he noticed when I first tried the Eno ethernet filter. Both of these products are from the same British company, Network Acoustics. Trey seems to have a penchant for these British hi-fi companies, and suppliers :) Btw, they do have a 30-day return policy.

    Anyway, I really couldn't give the Eno filter a fair shake in testing, since my listening space is not optimal, and is multi-use. Nonetheless, I did a mini-review about it here https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/193430/network-filters

    The big take-away is that a simple network switch near the streamer (or server) is beneficial for isolating the digital signal for devices down-stream. Obviously, Network Acoustics (and other companies) offer an additional passive ethernet filter, to be used between the switch and the streamer/server. Whether that additional investment is worth it...only you can decide.

    I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. Rich (at Network Acoustics) told me via email that the FIRST thing to try was to add a network switch near the streaming/server device. He literally told me to try this before purchasing any of his ethernet filters. He admitted/confessed that his ethernet filters would only provide an improvement for hi-res streaming (i.e., Qobuz, Tidal, etc.)

    I basically only stream Spotify (and informed Rich about that), so again, couldn't really give the Eno filter a fair shake. But, I mentioned this to Rich, and he happily agreed to give me more (free) time for evaluation. I ended-up keeping the Eno filter, and have no complaints about it, but have still not been able to do any hard-core testing.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    I agree 100% and your use of the eno did in fact steer me that direction.

    The switch made way more difference than I could ever imagine. I'm not using anything fancy either.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,046
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    My switch is a very basic D-Link model.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    So, what this says Jody......is that you need to be more vocal on this forum as to what you hear. Quit being a "closet" listener!

    When this thread started (I can't remember if Trey stated this publicly) but he mentioned to me that the switch made more of a difference than the Muon filter.

    Of course, now the tides have changed....

    Now look at his responses.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
    edited January 2023
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    The muon filter system has a very distinct sound trait as it burns in...

    When you first plug it in it sounds like the midrange is sucked out completely with overwhelming bass and the highs have alot of air.

    As you approach that 120 hours the sound slowly starts to balance back out with insane imaging bloom, air and the bass becomes very fast with great presence and volume. The midrange gains alot of weight and presence.

    Very wild to experience!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,046
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    There ya go, Tom. Trey is expressing my findings from a year-plus ago (look here): https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/193430/network-filters.

    I don't want to over-extend my influence on this forum. I've had quite the crash-course in hi-end audio over the last several years, but still don't feel comfortable pushing my opinions/findings onto others.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Pushing your experience is not what....

    That's the complete opposite of what I am asking. From you or others that may be holding back.

    The one thing Trey and I have learned (along with others) is that you discuss your findings. YES, things are system dependant. I get that.

    My point is that you and others really should put it out there (what you hear) for all to ponder on....

    I have not read your thread on said unit. Admitted. Knowing now what I know? I damned sure will.

    It's not about pushing. It's about discovering. Much like when we all GTG for a listening session in our local group.

    Fear keeps us from criticizing others systems. I get that. Trey and I differ. We rip each other's systems apart (with respect) each time we listen.

    That is the one thing that keeps both of us going...moving on, trying things....

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
    edited January 2023
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    To expand on Tom's comments...

    We started getting together every couple months I would say 2 years ago now. Since then we have built a little club that gets together but while we have developed new friendships and such...

    I can say without question that both of our systems are leaps and bound over where they were 2 years ago. Stratospheric differences.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Muon filter Pro in the house.

    Funny little thing. Light as a feather. Sounds all over the place as it breaks in. Was laughing at it earlier on tonight.

    Damn you Trey!

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    Yes! Congrats!

    Everyone should have one!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,213
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    w7juh9pyaym4.jpg
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    You get a filter and YOU get a filter and you get a filter...Everyone gets a filter!!!

    Oh, jeez.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~