The curse of the Treitz, expanding a networking journey

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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,373
    edited February 2023
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    erniejade wrote: »
    I have not tried out its ability to stream internally, and the directions are not that great, especially with all the extras it does.

    The LAN input is very good. The consensus at Headfi, LAN is best when used with fiber converters to isolate any network noise, but I don't agree. IMO it depends on what you are using to output USB, like a noisy computer with no USB isolation.

    The US manual was ~10 pages and missed a lot of details. Someone translated the Chinese manual to English and it is available in the edited first post of the R26 thread linked below. 23 pages...DAC operation explained properly. For example, the English manual incorrectly stated turning DSD Direct ON would send the stream direct to R-2R ladder when it actually goes to the 1Bit DSD as VR3 stated.

    If DSD Direct is off, DSD is converted to PCM by the DAC where it goes to the filters then the R-2R ladder, unless you select PCM NOS ON, then it bypasses filters AND volume control and goes to the R-2R ladder.

    There were folks who argued the 1Bit DSD was part of the R-2R ladder because you can't see the 1Bit DSD, but it is not. The 1Bit DSD is on the main board obscured by the R-2R daughter board. The 1Bit DSD measured poorly at i7audiolab. Some folks even said they hear the noise using speakers. Mine is quiet with DSD Direct ON and my hearing is still very good for an old guy. I have not seen any other R26 measurements to confirm.

    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-dac-r26-balanced-decoder-r2r-1bit-dual-native-decoding-music-bridge.963630/

    1fw0tky81rob.jpg

    The next two pics are my DAC internals.

    11drd8gmjp37.jpg
    am9epdgqr8fp.jpg
    dam1v8s0dft4.png

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,218
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    Good info!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,373
    edited February 2023
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    erniejade wrote: »
    Rich also gave a Singxer unit to try out with it.

    Some of what the Singxer SU-6 DDC offers are USB isolation and Crystek's high-performance femtosecond crystal oscillators with constant temperature system. I use it to export I2S via HDMI to the R26.

    I have been using Roon to convert music files to Native DSD and send to my DAC for many years with good results. YMMV. Roon DSP has gotten better although HQ Player conversion is said to beat it. I'll have to add an external computer via LAN to try HQ Player as it requires a powerful CPU to do DSD conversion/filtering. With the R26 I have used Roon to convert to PCM768 with great results.

    e815j1eqla06.jpg

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,479
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    I understand the manual in Chinese better than what you all are talking about. I plug something digital in and something analog comes back out. Sounds great.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,227
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    audioluvr wrote: »
    I understand the manual in Chinese better than what you all are talking about. I plug something digital in and something analog comes back out. Sounds great.

    I am with you on that one! Streamer into dac and poof, music comes out
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
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    My Innuos has a ethernet for a streamer. I need to try this configuration.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
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    https://innuos.com/zen-mk3/

    I imagine i would use the dedicated ethernet output to the R26
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    Wouldn't you want to use the SPDIF as the preferred output to the R26 instead? The Ethernet output serves as a passthrough for another network device. It looks like the USB's are all inputs (not 3.0)

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,227
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    In general SPDIF is considered the standard for outputs anyways yes?
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    That, USB and BNC. AFAIK, USB is the most commonly one used but this is all system (and gear) dependent.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    ....and I guess you could throw in optical (TOSLINK) as well.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,373
    edited February 2023
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    stangman67 wrote: »
    In general SPDIF is considered the standard for outputs anyways yes?

    Clock is embedded with data in SPDIF and some DAC chips do a better job than others extracting the clock. ESS Sabre has a patent on their process and SPDIF sounded very good. Adding I2S input on some DAC chips achieved a big jump in sound quality. USB/I2S/LAN also offer higher sampling rates than SPDIF and will do Native DSD. Of course, quality of implementation will affect results.

    R26 specs;

    USB / I2S / LAN : PCM up to 32bit 768kHz, Native DSD up to DSD512, DSD DoP up to DSD256
    AES / Optical / Coaxial : PCM up to 24bit 192kHz, DSD DoP up to DSD64
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 320
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    My streaming journey is going back to basics. Have a TeraDak coming for my modem/router. Plan to put my whole audio network, including the router, through a PS Audio P10 regenerator I just purchased - upgrade from the P3. I had decided I preferred the sound of my Parasound A21 plugged into the wall, instead of the P3. Turns out the P3 was not robust enough to avoid some constriction - probably explains my preference. The P10 will easily handle the whole audio network without constriction. I'll know for sure in a week or so. :)
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    Very nice @Dr_Wu! That week won't come fast enough for you, I'd bet.

    It would be interesting, once you get everything in, to see what your observations/preferences are with wall outlet or through the P10.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    Wouldn't you want to use the SPDIF as the preferred output to the R26 instead? The Ethernet output serves as a passthrough for another network device. It looks like the USB's are all inputs (not 3.0)

    Tom

    The Innuos ethernet has one for in and one for a throughput. It also has usb out one usb for a backup drive. and Thata about all the options on the Innuos.

    The Singer Rich loaned me takes the usb from the Innuos and converts it to that I2s.


    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    Trey...you wanted me to get me to the point of spending money on my system again.

    Damned you for that. My wallet no longer likes you. It really does not. At all....

    I do need to thank you though. What I am hearing now is well beyond what I ever thought possible for music reproduction.

    Punk.

    We are well beyond the speakers just "disappearing".

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,218
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    Yes sir!

    I love it!
    ay7bdejysp0o.gif

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    I have always been an advocate of money does NOT always equate to sound. I am still an advocate of this but....

    If chosen wisely?

    Awe chit son!

    Sometimes you have to take a gamble.

    We have won! Our ears can attest.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • tophatjohnny
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    Can’t wait to see what this all looks like when you’re said and done!
    "if it's not fun, it's not worth it & remember folks, "It's All About The Music"!!
    *****************************
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
    edited February 2023
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    I know a rig is a sum of all it's parts. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around a $1K+ mystery box that makes such positive improvements. Is this what put things over the top? I want to get one, but my skepticism is creeping in. If it wasn't for you and Trey endorsing them, I wouldn't really give them a second look. Which means I trust what you and Trey are hearing more than most.

    I had the same skepticism when I first joined here and Jesse among others were endorsing the musical attributes of MIT cables. It took me awhile and I came around and tried them for myself and he and others were spot on about how much improvement they made.

    RD0 tweeters were another one I was skeptical of and again......wish I had done them sooner at the time.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,218
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    30 day in home trial Brock, go for it!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    I take it that you are referring to the Muon?

    Instead of typing, let me ask you this. Don't you live somewhat close to Charlotte, NC? (within a couple of hours?)

    I'd like to offer you an official warm welcome to come hear it for yourself. I'm sure Trey would offer the same (with notice and planning).

    I haven't felt the need to take it out of the equation because of what I heard after install but even if it takes some break in/readjusting after the fact, I would be willing to let you listen with.....and then take it out to let you hear what happens. That way, you can hear it for yourself.

    I will say this. It made more of a difference in Trey's system than it did in mine, due to the fact that I already had 3 filters that were built in within the Shunyata cables. The Muon was the only filter that Trey has in his system.

    Shunyata (Specifically Caelin Gabriel) stated that the passive filters on the cables were better than any filter on the market and that the Omega filters were just "insane". Well, I tried them out on my rig and while they did make some rather nice changes that were definitely an attribute to all aspects, I personally feel based upon my observations that one of two things happened here.

    1 - He hasn't heard the Muon.

    2 - Marketing hype (even though it was a comment in a thread that he personally made during the discussion and wasn't really part of marketing).

    I will say this, once we heard it? We both knew it wasn't going back. That's for damned sure. The only thing I will say is that you don't even want to bother listening to it for the first 4 or 5 days. That was honestly painful to hear and quite the experience.

    Once it opened up and settled into the system? Well, come and give it a listen. Then decide for yourself if it is a road you want to travel down....which you will want to, once you hear it. It really does bring you to the next level of the reproductive effort and it's a wonderful thing to experience/listen too.

    BTW, thanks for the kind words.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,218
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    I did want to say the muon cable does have in line filters as well
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    I take it that you are referring to the Muon?

    Instead of typing, let me ask you this. Don't you live somewhat close to Charlotte, NC? (within a couple of hours?)

    I'd like to offer you an official warm welcome to come hear it for yourself. I'm sure Trey would offer the same (with notice and planning).

    I haven't felt the need to take it out of the equation because of what I heard after install but even if it takes some break in/readjusting after the fact, I would be willing to let you listen with.....and then take it out to let you hear what happens. That way, you can hear it for yourself.

    I will say this. It made more of a difference in Trey's system than it did in mine, due to the fact that I already had 3 filters that were built in within the Shunyata cables. The Muon was the only filter that Trey has in his system.

    Shunyata (Specifically Caelin Gabriel) stated that the passive filters on the cables were better than any filter on the market and that the Omega filters were just "insane". Well, I tried them out on my rig and while they did make some rather nice changes that were definitely an attribute to all aspects, I personally feel based upon my observations that one of two things happened here.

    1 - He hasn't heard the Muon.

    2 - Marketing hype (even though it was a comment in a thread that he personally made during the discussion and wasn't really part of marketing).

    I will say this, once we heard it? We both knew it wasn't going back. That's for damned sure. The only thing I will say is that you don't even want to bother listening to it for the first 4 or 5 days. That was honestly painful to hear and quite the experience.

    Once it opened up and settled into the system? Well, come and give it a listen. Then decide for yourself if it is a road you want to travel down....which you will want to, once you hear it. It really does bring you to the next level of the reproductive effort and it's a wonderful thing to experience/listen too.

    BTW, thanks for the kind words.

    Tom

    Yes I was Tom. That's a great offer but I live in Northern IL about 40 miles south of the Wisconsin border, so SC is a bit of a trip for me.

    I forgot the company does offer a 30 day refund. When I'm ready to introduce something like this, that's what I'll do. Evaluate it for 30 days to see how it all works out.

    You and Trey have my curiosity peaked. I still have a few things to get squared/tweaked away to establish a good base line.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,218
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    One thing I will add si that a switch is a must, that truly packages it all together
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    Switch? Remind me again?
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,218
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    This is my setup before it reaches the lumin

    Adtran ONT, fiber optic to ethernet terminal. Fiber optic run is ran directly from outside the house to the ONT.

    Audiolund reference ethernet cable

    Teradak 200w power supply powers both the Adtran ONT and Netgear nighthawk router via audiolund reference DC power cables and the teradak has an audiolund reference power cable to the wall.

    Audiolund reference ethernet cable

    Netgear nighthawk s8000 switch powered with a no name linear power supply I had an open slot on, stock cable, maybe upgrade this in the future, will see.

    Network acoustics muon 1.5m network cable to network acoustics muon ethernet filter
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,046
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    Here's mine:
    ao0a4dd6wgia.jpg
    Switch is on the bottom, and my ENO filter is on top. The ENO is connected to my Innuos Zen Mk3. The ENO is the little brother of the MUON.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,532
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    Trey, I didn't notice you bought the Muon filtered cable as well. I thought you only had the Muon filter and were using the Audiolund E cable.

    Jody, that ENO is what started this whole "thing" with the Muon. Apparently, had you not tried this unit, Trey and I wouldn't be where we are at today.

    Brock, yes. The Muon is what brings our system(s) up over the top.

    With that said, we both had already optimized (as much as our wallets would allow) the upstream gear that leads up to the Muon. As mentioned before, we both took separate paths but achieved the same goal. The Muon is an "experience", not just a component and it definitely is a major factor in what we are both experiencing.

    As far as the switch, it doesn't need to be a fancy one. Just a switch. The EtherREGEN I have just has a "moat" to further isolate the incoming noise. The new model should be out shortly but if everything else is optimized, I'm not sure how much of a difference that will make. I am reading reports of people taking it out of their systems/setup once they reach a certain point/configuration.

    Taiko Audio is in the process of developing a new switch (not the Extreme switch currently available) that I am keeping my eye on but it will not be a cheap one. The reason I am eying it, is because they seem to be at the leading edge of technology and R&D, when it comes to streaming at the moment. Supposedly, it will include a LPS, clock, and the latest and greatest for optimizing streaming.

    There are a plethora of ways to configure/improve upon reducing the noise and cleaning up the signal for a streaming rig and not everything needs to be done at once. My journey all started with a cheap, $14 CAT8 Ethernet cable.

    Everything I have done since then has done nothing but catapult my streaming audio journey. So far, every penny spent has been more than well worth it. Trey was ahead of the curve and listening to his journey/rig as it progressed, made me want to do the same thing. Now that we have both optimized the streaming aspect, the end result as to what hits our ears is something else.

    We are both having so much fun and listening is such a pleasure, words can't hardly describe it. It is wonderful to listen too though. Absolutely wonderful.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,299
    edited February 2023
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    Taiko Audio is definitely in the elite class, along with Wadax.