The curse of the Treitz, expanding a networking journey

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VR3
VR3 Posts: 28,212
So Tom has been tearing up the forum on networking gear and I figured heck why not throw my hat in the ring and see what exactly could be accomplished on this front, keeping in mind my BS flag is overwhelmingly high in this area.

This is my preliminary findings with about 30 hours or so on the setup. They recommend 120 hours.

Setup as follows

Adtran ONT, fiber optic to ethernet terminal. Fiber optic run is ran directly from outside the house to the ONT.

Audiolund reference ethernet cable

Teradak 200w power supply powers both the Adtran ONT and Netgear nighthawk router via audiolund reference DC power cables and the teradak has an audiolund reference power cable to the wall.

Audiolund reference ethernet cable

Netgear nighthawk s8000 switch powered with a no name linear power supply I had an open slot on, stock cable, maybe upgrade this in the future, will see.

Network acoustics muon 1.5m network cable to network acoustics muon ethernet filter

Lumin u1 with x1 power supply, audiolund signature power cable

Audiolund xtreme bnc cable, 1.5m

Ank dac 5.1 pro, tungstram 12au7, jj ecc99, eml mesh 5u4g, audiolund signature power cable

Audiolund xtreme rca interconnects 1m

Musical fidelity kw750, revelation audio umbilical with audiolund xtreme high powered 20 amp power cable

audiolund xtreme double run speaker cables, furutech banana plugs

Jm lab grande utopia 1st gen partially modified clarity cmr with duelund cast bypass, path resistors, stock inductors and wiring

I have about 25 to 30 hours logged on the Muon playing internet radio to the lumin, dac and amp off.

The Muon setup out of the box was extremely muffled sounding, so right out of the gate it was apparent the Muon was in the chain. The bass was over exaggerated and the top was was ambiant but the mids were oddly recessed. The manual even mentions this would happen.

So I left it playing all night and all day and sat down around 930 for a demo.

I played a few songs to gather a feel for how the sound had changed from the night prior and the midrange was decidedly better.

I centered my impressions around one song in particular for this write up

Sing 2 soundtrack - I still haven't found what I am looking for

I listened to the song with everything in place and then I started slowly removing components.

For those unfamiliar with this song, Scarlett Johansson and Bono perform a duet with a chorus in the back ground. The song has a string ensemble, a few guitars and some chimes or chime like instruments, drums, really a great track to test the full frequency band, ambiance etc.

With everything in place, the Muon streaming system with the network switch provided all of the same information as just the audiolund from the router to the lumin. I want to make sure that is clear. I didn't hear new information.

With that said, with all the pieces in place, it was easier to discern individual sounds and the sound projected more forwards with more spatial sense, ambiance and excellent midbass attack and low end.

The Muon system with the switch provides a cleaner rendition of the signal with greater soundstage and more clarity.

I will do a similar test a few more times to make sure my observations are consistent.

My final conclusion is this is not a night and day difference. While it does sound decidedly better, the Audiolund ethernet cable by itself does sound extremely good. The switch itself provides an interesting effect/sound that is cleaner than no switch installed which surprised me.

Just my thoughts, take for what it is worth! 🚀

a21pt4r0ppvi.jpg
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Comments

  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,681
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    I'm not dropping that kinda coin unless it lets me hear what Scar Jo had for breakfast!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    I listened from 930 to just now and I must say it was an awesome listening session.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,681
    edited January 2023
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    Bombshell: I secretly broke into your house at 9:25 and disconnected the muon filter! So you've been listening this entire time without it!!!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    I mean the only thing I would throw out there is they have a thirty day trial period...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,681
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    That's kinda cool. Do you think you will be keeping it or returning it?
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    So I think the question right now is would I keep the filter.

    The switch and muon cable sounds extremely good and the filter adds just an extra 2%

    I want to give it a fair shake, I'll keep letting it play in the background and see what it's like after 120 hours.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,947
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    What an overly complicated way to hear music.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Agreed, Jesse. But I will say this. It's no more complicated than trying to set up and extract everything you can out of a TT setup for the novice. It's just a different game.

    Difference is, with TT's? We all pretty much grew up with them and our fathers showed us the ropes. With this? Streaming on a high fidelity level has been around for a relatively short amount of time and the advancements are happening in real time, not 50, 60, 80 years or a century ago.

    Trey, I ditched the filter idea because of the Shunyata cables effectively doing a better job but still. 2% gain is a 2% gain. Was the cost worth it to you for said gain is the question. I never looked into how much a filter cost due to the E cables I acquired.

    With that said, you stated that you were proud that you got me spending money on my rig again. Well, payback is a b*t*h! :p

    Oh, do you have any special PC or LPS set up for the filter?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    The filter is 100% passive which was my main draw to it. It is essentially a 2 piece cable.

    I can say based on last night I really like the sound of the system across the board at 30 hours in. I probably won't listen tonight so will check it out again this weekend!

    I do agree that network streaming is akin to everything else in this hobby. There's going to be that group that says it's impossible to make a difference, it's all 1s and 0s and then there's that group that invest the time to try it and see what it is all about.

    My biggest take away is that it is like the linear power supply, the filter and the fileted cable with the switch is removing a noise or interference that you otherwise don't know is there.

    The sound is very effortless, projecting forwards with great spatial cues, the sound stage really opens up width wise and oddly the bass is just full with great impact, particularly in the midbass attack.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,224
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    Bombshell: I secretly broke into your house at 9:25 and disconnected the muon filter! So you've been listening this entire time without it!!!

    All of those muons on the loose!
    Oh, the humanity...

  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,299
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    The 1's and 0's are just high and low voltage, so technically they are analog, the interpretation is digital.
  • skrol
    skrol Posts: 3,345
    edited January 2023
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    ... and how quickly and cleanly the voltage transitions from low to high and high to low.
    Stan

    Main 2ch:
    Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Benchmark DAC1, Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.

    HT:
    Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW110 , Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60

    Other stuff:
    Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade); Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,477
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    I for one, have zero interest in this...
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 8,007
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    F1nut wrote: »
    What an overly complicated way to hear music.

    I would disagree with you Jesse. It’s a complicated way to set up your rig, yes, but the most convenient way to listen to music once set up. As Tom said, a TT would be just as much work for me to set up, and given my domestic life and commitments I would basically never listen to it. With a streaming setup, I can turn on literally any album I want from my phone while cooking dinner, yelling at the kids, lounging by the pool, etc. And it sounds pretty darn good. As good as Trey, you, or Toms setup? Heck no, but that because of the $$$ and time invested, not because it’s a streaming setup.

    Sorry for the thread derail. Thanks for the review Trey! And love the info about how to improve my streaming setup eventually. Unfortunately that is out of my league unless I sell a kidney or a child lol…and then I would still need to put that money towards a college fund for the other children dadgummit!
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
    Game Room 5.1.4:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra

    Bedroom 2.1
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,734
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    I'd sell the child.....You may need both kidneys by the time it's all said and done raising kids....

    Just sayin!
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 8,007
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I'd sell the child.....You may need both kidneys by the time it's all said and done raising kids....

    Just sayin!

    You’re probably right, but I’m actually pretty darn happy with the rig as it stands, so I’ll probably hold on to the kids and the kidneys for now…
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
    Game Room 5.1.4:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra

    Bedroom 2.1
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
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    F1nut wrote: »
    What an overly complicated way to hear music.

    This triggered vivid memories of wet cleaning records, ritualistic setup of cartridges, tonearms, drive belts, drive motors, and turntables, and being limited to one-disc-at-a-time playback of analog and digital music.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,299
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    F1nut wrote: »
    What an overly complicated way to hear music.

    This triggered vivid memories of wet cleaning records, ritualistic setup of cartridges, tonearms, drive belts, drive motors, and turntables, and being limited to one-disc-at-a-time playback of analog and digital music.

    There is also air bearing and vacuum hold down, it can get pretty complicated.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    That is correct. This (to me) is no more complicated and expensive as the vinyl rabbit hole. Where one goes and how deep they go is a personal preference. Each step that one takes (with either playback mechanism) has the "potential" to bring you closer to the musicians playing in front of you.

    That's part of the journey and a lot of the fun!

    I listen to vinyl, CD and streaming in my rig often. Every one of them have their own deficiencies as well as attributes.....and I enjoy each for what they have to offer.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • skrol
    skrol Posts: 3,345
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    Now if we can only get Verizon to run audiophile quality fiber to our houses.
    Stan

    Main 2ch:
    Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Benchmark DAC1, Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.

    HT:
    Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW110 , Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60

    Other stuff:
    Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade); Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
    edited January 2023
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    So it's been a full 48 hours or so since my last post.

    I listened to a hand full of songs when I first sat down and I was pretty taken aback to what I was hearing...

    It is hard to explain but the sound is simply expansive so I will draw it out. This is the depth of field /imaging I am experiencing with the muon filter system in place.the Squares are the speakers, the oval is my head.

    This is using these two songs as a reference.

    Bones UK - dirty little animals
    Bishop Briggs - Super human

    With the muon filter system
    lpjca1dt9qon.jpg

    Without the muon filter system
    3qve9zqji7ye.jpg

    For reference my room is 25x15

    The differences this time around are far more apparent than two days ago.

    Back to listening!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
    edited January 2023
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    Ultimately instruments that were directly beside the speakers are now about 3 ft in front and further left or right
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Like I said.....different presentation. Same Chit, different channel but different. I tow you sow!

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    The sound is pretty freaking spectacular man... I'm pretty taken aback this time around.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    I tow you sow!

    Enjoy brother...

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    You guys make me spend all my money :D

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    Fun video compilation

    Grandes on the old tri Vista system

    https://youtu.be/4-Yde6PbS1Y

    Grandes on the kw750, kw pre and tri Vista dac

    https://youtu.be/bkkj_JqgbrI

    System as of today

    https://youtu.be/txH0BvtD7_I

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,019
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    VR3 wrote: »
    Fun video compilation

    Grandes on the old tri Vista system

    https://youtu.be/4-Yde6PbS1Y

    Grandes on the kw750, kw pre and tri Vista dac

    https://youtu.be/bkkj_JqgbrI

    System as of today

    https://youtu.be/txH0BvtD7_I

    Thank you for wearing shoes!
    See my profile for list of gear.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    No one wants to see my feet! I assure you! 😁
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,046
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    VR3 wrote: »
    lpjca1dt9qon.jpg
    That drawing is missing the play pen :)

    It just registered with me that the Muon is the big brother of the Eno that I have from Network Acoustics. Do you find that the initial handshake between the router/switch and streamer takes a while when the filter is inserted into the chain?
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon