Hi Sal

tonyb

mhardy6647 wrote: »

FIWIW, I would opine that the Leaf and the Bolt (albeit with government help in terms of bottom-line cost to the purchaser) meet the " cater to the NEEDS of the population at large (families, grocery getters, workers, etc)" criterion. A little small, but fit-for-purpose as a vehicle for routine, daily, low-volume, low-mileage use.

The "Statement" vehicles from Tesla (or whomever) aren't really much different than any other manufacturer's statement vehicles. Heck, Chevy still sells the Spark (don't they?) -- and the Corvette.

PS Maybe it's just me, but doesn't it seem ironic that GM sells a car called the "Spark" that has an I/C engine, and the one they sell called the "Volt" does, too (albeit in a clever hybrid format) -- so their pure-played electric had to be called something else?

Not really Doc. As you can see, the range is short and charge times long. You can get a comparable gas version of the same size car, for the same price and not have to worry about range, charging, or getting a 220v station installed in the garage...that's if you have one too. How about the folks who live in apartments/condos.


2017 Nissan LEAF
Compact car



3.5/5 · Car and Driver







Range: 107 mi battery-only



MSRP: From $30,680



Battery: 30 kWh 360 V lithium-ion



MPGe: 124 city / 101 highway



Battery charge time: 21h at 110V, 6h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V

tonyb

Dealers are running sales on electric cars because they aren't moving/selling. The demand isn't there, even with subsidies. Cheap gas has put a choke hold on them. When gas was 4-5 bucks a gallon, then the appeal gets elevated.

Cheap gas, however, is the enemy of the environmentalists. They will do anything to make it more expensive to force people into their approved form of energy. If that happens, what pray tell do you think happens to electric prices once x amount of people switch over ?

It's about money, always has been, always will be.

shawn474

mhardy6647 wrote: »

FIWIW, I would opine that the Leaf and the Bolt (albeit with government help in terms of bottom-line cost to the purchaser) meet the " cater to the NEEDS of the population at large (families, grocery getters, workers, etc)" criterion. A little small, but fit-for-purpose as a vehicle for routine, daily, low-volume, low-mileage use.

Not at a cost of $30+k and a range of 107 miles with limited space.......if they simply were marketed as commuter cars, increased the range and dropped the price point, THEN i could see the appeal. I would even consider one for my purposes. But, as it stands right now, i cannot see it as a replacement for a daily driver gasoline engine car - toting around my kids with all their sports / band gear, trips to home depot, going on vacation (try putting one suitcase in there much less 4), etc.

mrbiron

Lasareath wrote: »

In other News JBHunt reserves a Tesla Semi Truck.

Keep launching these dreams Musk. One day your automotive sector will stay in the black. Hit a record low earlier this year with something like $400 million lost...not bad...

2 profitable quarters overall.....crushing it...

shawn474

mrbiron wrote: »

Lasareath wrote: »

In other News JBHunt reserves a Tesla Semi Truck.

Keep launching these dreams Musk. One day your automotive sector will stay in the black. Hit a record low earlier this year with something like $400 million lost...not bad...

2 profitable quarters overall.....crushing it...

Yep, how long do finance experts predict Tesla can sustain these kinds of losses and lack of production........

https://recode.net/2017/11/1/16593134/tesla-model-3-elon-musk-production-q3-earnings-2017

I have been following Elio Motors closely. Considering my commute and the practicality of cost ($7500 base price) and fuel efficiency, it would make sense. I could pay for the car outright and have no additional monthly payment, get 80+ miles per gallon and be comfortable with heat / air conditioning during my commute. Its bare bones, ugly as sin and technically classified as a motorcycle, but it works for a commuter car..........

https://eliomotors.com/

mhardy6647

The Leaf's range is very short -- surprisingly, there are a number of them in my neck of the woods. Between the hills and the cold winters, I'd be terrified to drive one anywhere but to the store & back.

The Bolt is better in that regard -- but it is small inside and out.

I like small vehicles for everyday use; it may be recalled that I bought a 2011 Ford Fiesta the moment they were available in the US; ordered one, in fact -- first time in my life I hadn't bought "off the lot". Nice little car, too; economical, cheap & fun to drive. But I digress

Our son-in-law came within Angstroms of buying a Bolt a month or so ago -- but th dealer sold it out from under him.

He & my daughter just bought a used 2010 Subaru Outback off CL instead

mhardy6647

Best strategy for many of us in the fast-disappearing segment of suburban/ex-urban baby boomers, methinks, is something small, cheap & economical for 'daily driver' use -- and a big-rump truck for those times when a truck is required.

daddyjt

mrbiron wrote: »

Lasareath wrote: »

In other News JBHunt reserves a Tesla Semi Truck.

Keep launching these dreams Musk. One day your automotive sector will stay in the black. Hit a record low earlier this year with something like $400 million lost...not bad...

2 profitable quarters overall.....crushing it...

Normally I couldn't care less, but it's OUR money he is burning through... We have two (That I know of) Tesla dealerships here in the Salt Lake area. Each one has between zero and 2 Tesla's on it at any given time, and one bored looking "salesman". In addition, each dealership has about a dozen of the "fast-charge" (Or whatever they are called) stations that are ALWAYS empty.

If it were Musk's own money, it would not bother me in the slightest. However, our government is throwing BILLIONS at him, with almost no return on investment, and apparently no oversight whatsoever. It's the $600 hammer fiasco all over again.

mhardy6647

Musk is one of those "Wizard of Oz" guys.

tonyb

Why we keep doing this, throwing billions at niche technologies is beyond me. Yet we have no money for vets, border wall, Medicare, improving infrastructure, getting water to farmers, etc. You know ....those piddly things that can make real changes in people's lives.

shawn474

tonyb wrote: »

Why we keep doing this, throwing billions at niche technologies is beyond me. Yet we have no money for vets, border wall, Medicare, improving infrastructure, getting water to farmers, etc. You know ....those piddly things that can make real changes in people's lives.

Because the egos of those involved can't allow themselves to be "behind the scenes" types of people. Those noble initiatives get passed when there is little care who gets the credit as long as it benefits those who NEED it. The EV crowd, and many others, want to be front and center.....their egos need to be fed in ways that are insatiable.

mhardy6647

The hybrid vehicle early adopters tended to be like that too -- and they were legion in the Boston metro area.

Mrs. H wasn't, fortunately, too insufferable when she got a hybrid.

mrbiron

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The hybrid vehicle early adopters tended to be like that too -- and they were legion in the Boston metro area.

Cambridge + Toyota Prius' = one if the worst areas to drive in all of mass. Thankfully, I'm still working out of CT. Their equation looks like this;

CT residents + any automobile + darkest tint you can buy = Satan's Nightmare

Viking64

To it's credit, the Toyota Prius is an effective birth-control device.

Viking64

Drag Times? Then why isn't he dressed like a woman the way you are?

charley95

tonyb wrote: »

Why we keep doing this, throwing billions at niche technologies is beyond me. Yet we have no money for vets, border wall, Medicare, improving infrastructure, getting water to farmers, etc. You know ....those piddly things that can make real changes in people's lives.

Amen!

charley95

Shouldn't this tree hugging mindset be considered a mental illness like hoarding?! Everyone who's into it is so obsessive over it. I have one in the family who loves Bernie and his thought process is out of control over this.

mhardy6647

Wait? Hoarding is a mental illness?!

Oh, my...


DSC_0241 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

pitdogg2

Lasareath wrote: »

This Guy from Drag Times just placed an order for the founders' edition. $250,000

Oooooooo now im soooo impressed.......

LMAO




Not impressed in the least Las.

voltz

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Wait? Hoarding is a mental illness?!

Oh, my...


DSC_0241 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

That isn't hoarding, that is collecting - Big difference
but i'd be happy to haul it all away if it makes ya feel better about yourself!

BlueFox

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Best strategy for many of us in the fast-disappearing segment of suburban/ex-urban baby boomers, methinks, is something small, cheap & economical for 'daily driver' use -- and a big-rump truck for those times when a truck is required.

I went that route 20+ years ago, but soon realized it was a lot less expensive to just rent a truck when needed.

tonyb

Lasareath wrote: »

This Guy from Drag Times just placed an order for the founders' edition. $250,000

Thanks for making my point, toys for the rich elite. Why do we need to subsidize toys for those who can afford them anyway ? Doesn't make sense to me. Especially when we have so many other areas in need of money. This is a priority.....250K cars for the rich ?

F1nut

Lasareath wrote: »

This Guy from Drag Times just placed an order for the founders' edition. $250,000

Nothing says SUCKER quite like it.

nooshinjohn

BlueFox wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Best strategy for many of us in the fast-disappearing segment of suburban/ex-urban baby boomers, methinks, is something small, cheap & economical for 'daily driver' use -- and a big-rump truck for those times when a truck is required.

I went that route 20+ years ago, but soon realized it was a lot less expensive to just rent a truck when needed.

I’m still looking for an electric bicycle powered by pixie dust and unicorn f arts...

mrbigbluelight

John, this is the best I can do for you:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/speedx/speedx-unicorn-smart-road-bike-with-built-in-power

No pixie dust but it does have wireless stuff.
I don't think you should have trouble finding fairy pixie dust out there in California, though.

motorstereo

One thing that hasn't been mentioned thus far and something to ponder. Why are aluminum manufacturing plants normally located near electrical generating plants? Because of the tremendous amount of electricity they require to make aluminum. The Tesla's body is all aluminum that would mean vast amounts of greenhouse gases generated from producing all that aluminum are released in the atmosphere before their products even hit the showroom.

tonyb

motorstereo wrote: »

One thing that hasn't been mentioned thus far and something to ponder. Why are aluminum manufacturing plants normally located near electrical generating plants? Because of the tremendous amount of electricity they require to make aluminum. The Tesla's body is all aluminum that would mean vast amounts of greenhouse gases generated from producing all that aluminum are released in the atmosphere before their products even hit the showroom.

Good point Motor, can then one assume that a Tesla's environmental impact is all front loaded in the making of the vehicle ? Having no emissions is like making up for what was expelled making it. Even so, that makes it's carbon footprint equal out in the end....but nobody is really concerned about carbon footprints anyway .

motorstereo

^^^^^^Just like in the audio world the source here is very important as well. If they have a green source producing the gigawatts necessary for aluminum production all would be well. I can't see a green source able to produce the necessary power needed though.

FWIW the aluminum industry is what made me retire from my self employed sealcoating business a few years ago. Apparently the coal tar which is a necessary ingredient of driveway sealer also has a use in aluminum production. The aluminum industry was willing to pay premium for it compared to the asphalt sealcoating industry so it's not hard to imagine what happened to price of coal tar. Coal tar is also a by-product of the coal mining industry and it's considered toxic until it's dry. So much for that aspect of being green to.

mhardy6647

Aluminum was a semiprecious metal until the late 19th century when a method to isolate the pure metal from aluminum oxide ore (bauxite) by electrolysis was developed.
Thus was the apex of the Washington Monument in DC made of in aluminum
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9511/binczewski-9511.html
(... or, maybe not)




Electrolysis is also used to reduce water to hydrogen and oxygen.

lightman1

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Electrolysis is also used to reduce water to hydrogen and oxygen.

And removing that pesky mustache hair from the Mrs. upper lip......