Hi Sal

1235712

Comments

  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,545
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 30,057
    edited November 2017
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    China, by all accounts, is spearheading the "green" (r)evolution. One may certainly question their motives and their tactics -- but they're doing it. They're also dumping PV panels on the US market at below-market-rate prices. I think we just bought a dozen of them, in fact. ;)

    China has a pragmatic view of environmental pollution, and as a top-down government, they can do something about it. And as (nearly) the world's largest economy, they can bring everyone else along, too. If the manage to conquer the markets for all of the enabling hardware and raw materials (China owns most, if not all, of the "strategic materials" mines at this point), so much the better (from their perspective). One thing China gets very right -- and the US gets very wrong -- is taking a long term view.

    China, being the world's largest market for new automobiles, is also driving (heh) the manufactures of the world to electrics. The relatively tiny US market of 2017 means that the days of the classic I/C engine vehicles we all grew up with are really and truly (and rapidly) drawing to a close.

    One may certainly argue the rationale for the change -- but not that it is utterly inevitable. Market forces are dictating it -- and market forces are rarely egalitarian, democratic, or a level playing field.

    Enjoy the I/C vehicles while they last, folks.

  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 12,285
    edited November 2017
    Being reminded of mother nature, the EV market needs to figure out what to do during evacuations

    Shite getting out of Houston for Thanksgiving is a bear here in traffic, add 2hrs to a regular 3hr trip
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  • tonyb wrote: »
    Yes Sal, it's peanuts, and won't change a thing in association with global climate matters. You can have everyone in the USA driving electric cars, and it won't change a thing.

    Until you can come up with godly powers to control the Sun, orbit of the planet, or control Volcanic eruptions and other contributing cosmic and natural events, your spitting in the wind.

    But wait... Didn't Chris Coumo tell Kelly Ann that maybe there's a way we could reduce the number of hurricanes?! :}
  • maximillian
    maximillian Posts: 2,132
    They forgot to style it.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 30,057
    edited November 2017
    They forgot to style it.

    :)

    From the Scion xB/Lego car school of design.
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 5,751
    I think it is just one big, huge battery with wheels. :p
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 5,751
    I'm thinking of getting this SUV: The EcoKing 3000, made out of 100% recycled materials.
    (Approved and endorsed by the head of the Mother Gaia Society herself, Moonbeam Kumquat)
    Back in the 1960's, my father had a pair of old boots that looked EXACTLY like that. :p

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,683
    Viking64 wrote: »
    I'm thinking of getting this SUV: The EcoKing 3000, made out of 100% recycled materials.
    (Approved and endorsed by the head of the Mother Gaia Society herself, Moonbeam Kumquat)
    Back in the 1960's, my father had a pair of old boots that looked EXACTLY like that. :p

    LOL, the difference is your father didn't live in them, unlike the owners of that....whatever it is, pic.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,683
    nbrowser wrote: »
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    Seen India lately?

    Shhhh....stop now, your blowing the narrative.

    Emerging economies, such as those in the 3rd world like in South America and Africa, parts of Asia, NEED to burn fossil fuels because it's cheap, gives the best bang for the buck. In case Sal missed it on his maps, half the planet is still pretty much in poverty.

    Call me crazy, but if the goal is to save lives and lift people out of poverty, electric cars is way down on the list. Unfortunately that's not the goal, but it should be. Cutting atmospheric emissions by .01 percent does nothing for anyone per dollar spent chasing it. That money and resources could be better used to make a real difference for the human species.....in my opinion of course.
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  • shawn474
    shawn474 Posts: 3,045
    tonyb wrote: »
    nbrowser wrote: »
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    Seen India lately?

    Shhhh....stop now, your blowing the narrative.

    Emerging economies, such as those in the 3rd world like in South America and Africa, parts of Asia, NEED to burn fossil fuels because it's cheap, gives the best bang for the buck. In case Sal missed it on his maps, half the planet is still pretty much in poverty.

    Call me crazy, but if the goal is to save lives and lift people out of poverty, electric cars is way down on the list. Unfortunately that's not the goal, but it should be. Cutting atmospheric emissions by .01 percent does nothing for anyone per dollar spent chasing it. That money and resources could be better used to make a real difference for the human species.....in my opinion of course.

    Tony, we may not agree on everything. But based on your thoughtful responses to this thread and the justifications/explanations you provide, we may agree on a lot more than I previously thought. I commend you on being able to convey a point, provide explanation and offer sensible alternatives...... I wish I was able to articulate as well as you have in this thread.
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,480
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    China, by all accounts, is spearheading the "green" (r)evolution. One may certainly question their motives and their tactics -- but they're doing it. They're also dumping PV panels on the US market at below-market-rate prices. I think we just bought a dozen of them, in fact. ;)

    China has a pragmatic view of environmental pollution, and as a top-down government, they can do something about it. And as (nearly) the world's largest economy, they can bring everyone else along, too. If the manage to conquer the markets for all of the enabling hardware and raw materials (China owns most, if not all, of the "strategic materials" mines at this point), so much the better (from their perspective). One thing China gets very right -- and the US gets very wrong -- is taking a long term view.

    China, being the world's largest market for new automobiles, is also driving (heh) the manufactures of the world to electrics. The relatively tiny US market of 2017 means that the days of the classic I/C engine vehicles we all grew up with are really and truly (and rapidly) drawing to a close.

    One may certainly argue the rationale for the change -- but not that it is utterly inevitable. Market forces are dictating it -- and market forces are rarely egalitarian, democratic, or a level playing field.

    Enjoy the I/C vehicles while they last, folks.

    I have to disagree on all counts.

    China is not the largest, by far. The most recent numbers I can find are from July of this year and China is still less than $12 Trillion in value while the U.S. is a few billion under $20 Trillion.

    China's economy is propped up by their government and with U.S. energy costs plummeting due to cheap natural gas, China is struggling with available market place share. Hence the reason they are being so aggressive in Asia-Pac waters. They want to tie up shipping lanes. That's the only way left that they have to control costs and undercut everyone else.

    China's economy is a paper tiger and it will collapse. Be fearful of that not because the U.S. is weak as you seem to believe but because China's value is almost entirely based on debt. China goes down, we all hurt. Mostly because before they do, they will flood the markets with all their piled up cash. Literally, truck loads of physical money that they are sitting on. That will devalue every currency overnight and might get them some relief for some time but the market will equalize on it's own. Always does. That will put China out in the cold again and they will start falling, again. With no parachute.

    They are the largest GROWING market for cars. They are not the largest market. They may want EVs but they have no automobile infrastructure like other 1st world countries. They can build for an EV infrastructure easily. The rest of the developed world is still on fuels. The rest of the world's market dwarfs China. Drastically. The U.S. is a component of that market and while our economic situation has shrunk our market, in recent years, it actually is recovering, finally, after 10 years of stagnation despite the previous administration tooting a horn and saying it was recovered because we were just gonna ignore all those double digit unemployment numbers over there.

    What is the real concern is that the EV market stands to become an issue because currently, China has all the battery production. Nobody else is making them. China does not have all of the strategic mineral reserves. They may own some mines but they do not have the reserves without conquering places like Russia or Brazil or Argentina or Canada or the U.S. or Mexico and fat chance that the U.S. or Russia would just allow China to walk all over them.

    I do believe that the internal combustion engine is on it's way out but not any time soon. They are getting better year after year and are still remaining viable. Some of them are even so clean now that you can drive a U.S. market car with U.S. emissions standards through Beijing on the worst pollution day they have and the U.S. market car will actually emit cleaner exhaust than the air going into the engine. Electric is a difficult tech to live with on batteries. they are expensive, they wear out and they have an environmental impact in manufacturing that completely negates any benefit their use might bring. The only thing they do is get you off foreign oil while putting you on foreign battery tech.

    What we need is a viable fuel cell technology and to put our research bucks into that. The longer we keep drinking the Kool Aid and buying waste of time hybrids or succumbing to electric cars in a fit of "It's the best option now" instead of demanding and funding something better that actually solves the problems, the longer we will wait for a truly revolutionary tech that breaks the fossil fuel dependence and makes all these "green" options obsolete and not viable.

    I do not disagree that China has a longer world view. I think their approach to it with their capitalistic communism is going to break and break hard and that makes it a bad solution on any timeframe. But by implementing such a situation and sticking with it so hard, they sure are committed to the long haul even if every economic model shows them crumbling from the collapse of their government subsidies for energy costs.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,683
    shawn474 wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    nbrowser wrote: »
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    Seen India lately?

    Shhhh....stop now, your blowing the narrative.

    Emerging economies, such as those in the 3rd world like in South America and Africa, parts of Asia, NEED to burn fossil fuels because it's cheap, gives the best bang for the buck. In case Sal missed it on his maps, half the planet is still pretty much in poverty.

    Call me crazy, but if the goal is to save lives and lift people out of poverty, electric cars is way down on the list. Unfortunately that's not the goal, but it should be. Cutting atmospheric emissions by .01 percent does nothing for anyone per dollar spent chasing it. That money and resources could be better used to make a real difference for the human species.....in my opinion of course.

    Tony, we may not agree on everything. But based on your thoughtful responses to this thread and the justifications/explanations you provide, we may agree on a lot more than I previously thought. I commend you on being able to convey a point, provide explanation and offer sensible alternatives...... I wish I was able to articulate as well as you have in this thread.

    It comes down to common sense. I think basically, we all want the same things, we just differ on the approach to achieve those goals. Personally I get a bug up my behind when I see some use humanitarian issues to enrich themselves or push agendas.

    Some may take me as a denier of humans ability to pollute the planet, I am not. I understand what we as a species are capable of, and not capable of. I am always first and foremost about being good stewards of the planet, where and whenever possible. That doesn't mean we should use that as a way to enrich a select few, or use it as a means to control populations. Education is key, to raise our young with a respect for the environment, along with law enforcement for the major polluters. I've always said the key to solving most our problems is by raising and educating better human beings. That's another discussion for another time/thread.

    Priorities man, priorities. If we can't learn to take care of ourselves, stop killing one another, who will be left to inherit this cleaner planet ? Squirrels ? :)
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,683
    You at the Bunny ranch Russ....again ? :)
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,709
    tonyb wrote: »
    You at the Bunny ranch Russ....again ? :)

    C'mon Tony! Who doesn't love bunnies?
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 23,596
    edited November 2017
    Priorities man, priorities. If we can't learn to take care of ourselves, stop killing one another, who will be left to inherit this cleaner planet ? Squirrels???

    2bmethslau72.jpeg


    I present you the flying cockroach, inheritor of the Earth.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,683
    Close John, second only to Keith Richards. ;)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 30,057
    edited November 2017
    Jstas wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    China, by all accounts, is spearheading the "green" (r)evolution. One may certainly question their motives and their tactics -- but they're doing it. They're also dumping PV panels on the US market at below-market-rate prices. I think we just bought a dozen of them, in fact. ;)

    China has a pragmatic view of environmental pollution, and as a top-down government, they can do something about it. And as (nearly) the world's largest economy, they can bring everyone else along, too. If the manage to conquer the markets for all of the enabling hardware and raw materials (China owns most, if not all, of the "strategic materials" mines at this point), so much the better (from their perspective). One thing China gets very right -- and the US gets very wrong -- is taking a long term view.

    China, being the world's largest market for new automobiles, is also driving (heh) the manufactures of the world to electrics. The relatively tiny US market of 2017 means that the days of the classic I/C engine vehicles we all grew up with are really and truly (and rapidly) drawing to a close.

    One may certainly argue the rationale for the change -- but not that it is utterly inevitable. Market forces are dictating it -- and market forces are rarely egalitarian, democratic, or a level playing field.

    Enjoy the I/C vehicles while they last, folks.

    I have to disagree on all counts.

    China is not the largest, by far. The most recent numbers I can find are from July of this year and China is still less than $12 Trillion in value while the U.S. is a few billion under $20 Trillion.

    China's economy is propped up by their government and with U.S. energy costs plummeting due to cheap natural gas, China is struggling with available market place share. Hence the reason they are being so aggressive in Asia-Pac waters. They want to tie up shipping lanes. That's the only way left that they have to control costs and undercut everyone else.

    China's economy is a paper tiger and it will collapse. Be fearful of that not because the U.S. is weak as you seem to believe but because China's value is almost entirely based on debt. China goes down, we all hurt. Mostly because before they do, they will flood the markets with all their piled up cash. Literally, truck loads of physical money that they are sitting on. That will devalue every currency overnight and might get them some relief for some time but the market will equalize on it's own. Always does. That will put China out in the cold again and they will start falling, again. With no parachute.

    They are the largest GROWING market for cars. They are not the largest market. They may want EVs but they have no automobile infrastructure like other 1st world countries. They can build for an EV infrastructure easily. The rest of the developed world is still on fuels. The rest of the world's market dwarfs China. Drastically. The U.S. is a component of that market and while our economic situation has shrunk our market, in recent years, it actually is recovering, finally, after 10 years of stagnation despite the previous administration tooting a horn and saying it was recovered because we were just gonna ignore all those double digit unemployment numbers over there.

    What is the real concern is that the EV market stands to become an issue because currently, China has all the battery production. Nobody else is making them. China does not have all of the strategic mineral reserves. They may own some mines but they do not have the reserves without conquering places like Russia or Brazil or Argentina or Canada or the U.S. or Mexico and fat chance that the U.S. or Russia would just allow China to walk all over them.

    I do believe that the internal combustion engine is on it's way out but not any time soon. They are getting better year after year and are still remaining viable. Some of them are even so clean now that you can drive a U.S. market car with U.S. emissions standards through Beijing on the worst pollution day they have and the U.S. market car will actually emit cleaner exhaust than the air going into the engine. Electric is a difficult tech to live with on batteries. they are expensive, they wear out and they have an environmental impact in manufacturing that completely negates any benefit their use might bring. The only thing they do is get you off foreign oil while putting you on foreign battery tech.

    What we need is a viable fuel cell technology and to put our research bucks into that. The longer we keep drinking the Kool Aid and buying waste of time hybrids or succumbing to electric cars in a fit of "It's the best option now" instead of demanding and funding something better that actually solves the problems, the longer we will wait for a truly revolutionary tech that breaks the fossil fuel dependence and makes all these "green" options obsolete and not viable.

    I do not disagree that China has a longer world view. I think their approach to it with their capitalistic communism is going to break and break hard and that makes it a bad solution on any timeframe. But by implementing such a situation and sticking with it so hard, they sure are committed to the long haul even if every economic model shows them crumbling from the collapse of their government subsidies for energy costs.

    Thanks -- I was curious to see what if any reaction my polemic would stir up :)
    I'll work through these at my leisure.

    Let's start with the world auto ("light vehicle") market. For 2016, here's the 'hot 100' in sales.
    Note #1. 30% of global market share.

    http://focus2move.com/world-car-market/

    vu75vxbx52tj.png
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,480
    mhardy6647 wrote: »

    Thanks -- I was curious to see what if any reaction my polemic would stir up :)
    I'll work through these at my leisure.

    Let's start with the world auto ("light vehicle") market. For 2016, here's the 'hot 100' in sales.
    Note #1. 30% of global market share.

    http://focus2move.com/world-car-market/

    vu75vxbx52tj.png

    30% means that the rest of the world is 70%, more than twice the size of China's market. Given that, all the single digit breakdowns are where there are not only emissions standards that are common across multiple markets but safety standards and even driver configuration standards means that car manufacturers can build a car for one market that is able to be sold in dozens of others because of common standards. Standards that China does not participate in. China may buy a bunch of cars but for every car sold in China, there's 2.33 sold elsewhere.

    China is a market to consider but they are no where near being able to skew the industry as a whole.

    What will happen is that companies like GM will start opening plants up there and building vehicles specifically for the Chinese market. GM has actually already done that with Buick. Same U.S. domestic market platforms but design and powertrain engineering in China for China only.

    Ford is moving to that model as well as Toyota last I checked. It's a big market for sure but they are so far out of step with everyone else that the losses taken in the other 70% of the market just to satisfy China's 30% would be absurd.

    I know you have a hard on for China and are impressed with them but you seem to never really scratch the surface to see the ugly reality underneath it. You have all the tech and environmental fantasies you want about China but take a gouge out of the shiny, polished exterior and look at the ugly poo of an economic reality underneath.

    They have no labor laws, have abusive and repressive labor tactics, they routinely prop up sectors of their economy through shady bubble-esque practices (like building entire cities no one lives in just to pad growth numbers), their record on environmental initiative participation is abysmal up until very recently when, honestly, it's probably too late and despite all the wealth, they have virtually no middle-class to speak of. You are either obscenely wealthy in China or poor. There is a middle ground but it's so small it's nonexistent in a country of billions.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 21,005
    Jstas wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Don’t forget the massive pollution that China is spewing out at rates never before seen.

    China, by all accounts, is spearheading the "green" (r)evolution. One may certainly question their motives and their tactics -- but they're doing it. They're also dumping PV panels on the US market at below-market-rate prices. I think we just bought a dozen of them, in fact. ;)

    China has a pragmatic view of environmental pollution, and as a top-down government, they can do something about it. And as (nearly) the world's largest economy, they can bring everyone else along, too. If the manage to conquer the markets for all of the enabling hardware and raw materials (China owns most, if not all, of the "strategic materials" mines at this point), so much the better (from their perspective). One thing China gets very right -- and the US gets very wrong -- is taking a long term view.

    China, being the world's largest market for new automobiles, is also driving (heh) the manufactures of the world to electrics. The relatively tiny US market of 2017 means that the days of the classic I/C engine vehicles we all grew up with are really and truly (and rapidly) drawing to a close.

    One may certainly argue the rationale for the change -- but not that it is utterly inevitable. Market forces are dictating it -- and market forces are rarely egalitarian, democratic, or a level playing field.

    Enjoy the I/C vehicles while they last, folks.

    I have to disagree on all counts.

    China is not the largest, by far. The most recent numbers I can find are from July of this year and China is still less than $12 Trillion in value while the U.S. is a few billion under $20 Trillion.

    China's economy is propped up by their government and with U.S. energy costs plummeting due to cheap natural gas, China is struggling with available market place share. Hence the reason they are being so aggressive in Asia-Pac waters. They want to tie up shipping lanes. That's the only way left that they have to control costs and undercut everyone else.

    China's economy is a paper tiger and it will collapse. Be fearful of that not because the U.S. is weak as you seem to believe but because China's value is almost entirely based on debt. China goes down, we all hurt. Mostly because before they do, they will flood the markets with all their piled up cash. Literally, truck loads of physical money that they are sitting on. That will devalue every currency overnight and might get them some relief for some time but the market will equalize on it's own. Always does. That will put China out in the cold again and they will start falling, again. With no parachute.

    They are the largest GROWING market for cars. They are not the largest market. They may want EVs but they have no automobile infrastructure like other 1st world countries. They can build for an EV infrastructure easily. The rest of the developed world is still on fuels. The rest of the world's market dwarfs China. Drastically. The U.S. is a component of that market and while our economic situation has shrunk our market, in recent years, it actually is recovering, finally, after 10 years of stagnation despite the previous administration tooting a horn and saying it was recovered because we were just gonna ignore all those double digit unemployment numbers over there.

    What is the real concern is that the EV market stands to become an issue because currently, China has all the battery production. Nobody else is making them. China does not have all of the strategic mineral reserves. They may own some mines but they do not have the reserves without conquering places like Russia or Brazil or Argentina or Canada or the U.S. or Mexico and fat chance that the U.S. or Russia would just allow China to walk all over them.

    I do believe that the internal combustion engine is on it's way out but not any time soon. They are getting better year after year and are still remaining viable. Some of them are even so clean now that you can drive a U.S. market car with U.S. emissions standards through Beijing on the worst pollution day they have and the U.S. market car will actually emit cleaner exhaust than the air going into the engine. Electric is a difficult tech to live with on batteries. they are expensive, they wear out and they have an environmental impact in manufacturing that completely negates any benefit their use might bring. The only thing they do is get you off foreign oil while putting you on foreign battery tech.

    What we need is a viable fuel cell technology and to put our research bucks into that. The longer we keep drinking the Kool Aid and buying waste of time hybrids or succumbing to electric cars in a fit of "It's the best option now" instead of demanding and funding something better that actually solves the problems, the longer we will wait for a truly revolutionary tech that breaks the fossil fuel dependence and makes all these "green" options obsolete and not viable.

    I do not disagree that China has a longer world view. I think their approach to it with their capitalistic communism is going to break and break hard and that makes it a bad solution on any timeframe. But by implementing such a situation and sticking with it so hard, they sure are committed to the long haul even if every economic model shows them crumbling from the collapse of their government subsidies for energy costs.

    I cannot argue with too much of this as I'm not that intelligent in most of these matters. What I have looked into is China has a lock on most of the rare Earth elements that drives our modern technology. What they do not have at home they have bought in the 3rd world area with that cash John talks about. China was the first to get into Afghanistan with dump trucks full of cash and pushed the U.S. right out for MAJOR rights on the vast mining opportunities there. This has been what they have done at many other locations on the planet. Most of our war tech runs on these RARE EARTH elements as well as every cell phone on the planet.

    My .02
  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,709
    Hrmmm...Rare Earth.....
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 5,751
    lightman1 wrote: »
    Hrmmm...Rare Earth.....

    DRAT! You beat me to it. Surprisingly, my brain remembered that I know TWO Rare Earth songs. HAHAHAHAHA

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 30,057
    edited November 2017
    The Live Rare Earth album is excellent!

    On topic (sort of) -- the only thing I have of or for China is fear. They are poised to eat the West's lunch, if for no other reason than mass action.

    I'm afraid, it is as simple as that.

    Oh -- of that other 70% of the world, who else on the list is anti-EV? I think the European (EU) countries are pretty much on-board with EVs, and there are still a few European countries in the top 10 (or top 11). Customer demand will drive the auto industry rapidly to EVs. Whether that's better or worse than fuel cells in the near term, I dunno. Fuel cells have remained impractical for, what, five decades now? Maybe six.

    Speaking of Buicks -- which, as pointed out, the Chinese love... sort of like the French & Jerry Lewis -- I got the impression that GM was assembling at least some Buicks for the domestic (US) market in China; anyone know fo' sho'?

    PS I have no disagreement vis-a-vis the ultimately impractical nature of batteries for high energy density storage. The electrochemistry that "drives" batteries is fixed and immutable; there are upper limits on how much energy can be packed in per unit volume or per unit mass, and those limits are fundamental. I am also extremely skeptical of the practical limit on the rate of (safe) recharging of high-energy batteries. One can sure fill up an F-250's fuel tank with gasoline - or Diesel fuel - fast!

    EVs are probably a stop-gap, but they're inevitable.


  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,683
    edited November 2017
    Ya know, John made a good point that kinda flew over everyones head.

    "The only thing they do is get you off foreign oil while putting you on foreign battery tech."

    Very astute John, good observation. What this does in essence is start to change power structures on the global board game. Which is the goal for a lot of these environmental movements.

    Does anyone really think the elitists of the world give a crap about the environment ? As they travel in huge private jets, yachts, spray chemicals all over to keep their mansions looking great. Nope, the only thing they worry about is that you peasants are using up too much of the planets resources and they fear the good stuff in life won't last long with all you deplorables sucking it up. So they must make laws for you, not them, to curtail your use of such things or make the good stuff too expensive for you. This pattern is also visible with social issues. Open borders, no fences for you, but they live behind walls and gates. Gun control, no guns for you, but they are protected by armed security. I could go on but that would derail.

    As George Carlin used to say, the rich get all the tax breaks, the middle class pays most the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the sheet out of the middle class.

    Always like George, man was ahead of his time. :) One must follow the money, because behind every agenda is a plan to make money. Behind every agenda, is another motive. Having an agenda isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as it benefits all people, not just a select few elitist.

    I'll get off my soap box, but good point John, also your other commentary on China. Which btw, we have our own debt ridden "house of cards" here nobody seems to want to address.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 30,057
    edited November 2017
    In terms of the US debt, I guess that "we" own most of it, but a fair amount (maybe ca. 30%, it's a bit of a moving target) is owned by a slew of entities. China isn't the single major ex-US debt owner any more, though -- as of 2016, Japan edged 'em out (which is interesting).

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/16/investing/china-japan-us-debt-treasuries/index.html

    This is how it stacked up in 2015 (i.e., this is not current), FWIW:


    cvbnlj8jtpzy.png

  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,480
    GM has a plan to move all Buick production to China and unless sales numbers jump significantly in the next couple of years, will likely exit Buick from the North American market completely.

    The other countries may be pro-EV, the U.S. is as well but, like the U.S. they do not have the infrastructure to support it. Not on the level that China does.

    However, unlike China, the rest of the developed world is sitting on 100 years of developed fossil fuel infrastructure and very little EV infrastructure. China has only been building such infrastructure since the 70's. They are not so deeply invested in it and can quickly adopt an EV infrastructure without a huge economic impact.

    The biggest hurdle for us is the infrastructure and not because it'll be hard to change it. Changing our infrastructure is not hard. We have the money and can do it easily. What is difficult is changing the infrastructure....or at least growing it enough to accommodate new/early adopters of the tech while still supporting and entire economic structure that relies on the existing infrastructure until the new infrastructure can be made pervasive enough in the economy that it's an unsubsidized competitive choice driven in cost by actual market conditions and not because some self-important empire builder in a capitol building somewhere is making it their life's mission to tell us all how we should live our lives.

    EVs are not viable because the market cannot and will not support them. The tech has come a long way but it has a way longer way to go before it makes it there. If we had dumped so much effort into fuel cells as we have EV's and batteries, we'd have the car that ran on water producing hydrogen gas from 90% efficient solar panels on the roof by now. But no, we can't have that because all the sheeple believe that Toyota was God's gift to car manufacturers and they came out with the Jesus Car....I mean, the Prius. So now we are saddled with these idiotic hybrids and battery operated, glorified golf carts sucking down real dollars that could be spent elsewhere on tech that actually makes a difference. Not tech that lets self-important smug people feel better about themselves while actually do nothing at all to help anything.

    China may have cornered the market on rare earth elements for all of this electronic stuff but EVs are not the way of the future. The tech isn't there and despite the Fisker announcement, it won't be there in the near future either. China's betting a horse that might place at best in the race. Right now, current fuel cell tech is whipping everything else's butt just nobody is interested in it because most have no idea how it works and current cost to entry is very high. Gas/diesel vehicles are cheap to run and maintain comparably and natural gas is making huge strides in using public transportation and civic support vehicles as test beds for technology that uses NG as a fuel source and damn near every home in America has access to an NG pipeline as is. No new electrical boxes or wiring needed. A meter box, a cutoff valve and pressure hose and you can fill up your car just like you hooked up your stove or your clothes dryer. Furthermore, the supply grid can handle the added capacity. The current electrical grid in this country would be overwhelmed if just 30% of drivers adopted EV tech and had charging stations in their homes.

    China's advantage here is solely due to being so far behind the curve. Not because they are innovative.
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