New MIT cables, adjustable articulation!

BlueFox

Too many of you have your panties all bunched up. $80K is pocket change to millions of people. Even if only 1% of a million buy these, that is $800 million in sales. I doubt if parts and labor exceed 25% of list price, so that is good profit for MIT. But who pays list for MIT cables?

You all are forgetting MIT drastically over prices list so that their dealers can give big, big discounts. Now everyone is happy, the customer thinks they got a great deal, the dealer makes a profit, and so does MIT.

The important point has already been made. Who cares how people spend their money.

mikeyb128

I've said this before, If you think mark up on cables is bad... Just look at the automotive industry (which I've worked in for about 12 years, including high end). I've seen 10 dollar parts sell for 120. Maybe we should start ragging on people for spending obscene amounts fixing their p.o.s. cars too?

txcoastal1

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I've said this before, If you think mark up on cables is bad... Just look at the automotive industry (which I've worked in for about 12 years, including high end). I've seen 10 dollar parts sell for 120. Maybe we should start ragging on people for spending obscene amounts fixing their p.o.s. cars too?

Or installing $12K car stereo in a $10k car, or spending $10k,20,$30K a year hitting a stupd white ball across the grass

Paradoxex

BlueFox wrote: »

Too many of you have your panties all bunched up. $80K is pocket change to millions of people. Even if only 1% of a million buy these, that is $800 million in sales. I doubt if parts and labor exceed 25% of list price, so that is good profit for MIT. But who pays list for MIT cables?

You all are forgetting MIT drastically over prices list so that their dealers can give big, big discounts. Now everyone is happy, the customer thinks they got a great deal, the dealer makes a profit, and so does MIT.

The important point has already been made. Who cares how people spend their money.

True enough. But I tell ya what, if MIT hits $800 million in sales this year across all their cables, I'll buy you a set of these. I bet dollars to donuts they've not done $800 million in sales since their inception in 2000. So we're talking a product that appeals to the creme de la creme financially, which is what a statement product should do.

I also bet that parts and labor don't exceed 10% of the list price, and I bet I'm being naive in estimating that high. No one is doubting that MIT will make a killing off of these if they sell a moderate amount. But let's be real bout the size of the market,it's tiny.

What people did doubt, as far as I can tell, is that customers would "think they got a great deal." That's why some have expressed a lack of faith.

What is odd to me so far is that everyone defends this sort of audiophile equipment, be in super high end speakers, amps, or cables by saying that you have to judge by your ears. I get that.

But then you have many in this thread wholeheartedly defending cables pushing the already expansive pricing boundaries of the market without having ever heard them, much less a new cable/old cable comparison, which seems like a reasonable way to test things subjectively. I know MIT has a stellar reputation here, but even great companies put out bad/bad-value products, especially when having to justify a new price point. I am not sure why MIT gets the benefit of the doubt.

I should stipulate that I haven't heard the cables either, so I am in no way trying to judge them here. MIT's strategy does make sense. But when people slip the word "value" in there, I twinge a bit. To know that at this point you'd either have to have heard the cables, not care about the traditional definition of value (possible), or just assume that these cables are almost twice as nice as anything else out there, with only marketing hype to stand on.

nooshinjohn

xcapri79 wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

^^^ You should have circled the drain here a long time ago....

^^^ Can't converse on a topic so you resort to a personal attack?

You call this a personal attack? LOL!!!! No wonder you cannot understand cables. If I would have called you a name, made a threat of some sort or otherwise made a statement that called your credibility into question, you would have a case for being attacked.

I merely called into question the fact that you should have had to dream up a new screen name a while ago.

BlueFox

Paradoxex wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

Too many of you have your panties all bunched up. $80K is pocket change to millions of people. Even if only 1% of a million buy these, that is $800 million in sales. I doubt if parts and labor exceed 25% of list price, so that is good profit for MIT. But who pays list for MIT cables?

You all are forgetting MIT drastically over prices list so that their dealers can give big, big discounts. Now everyone is happy, the customer thinks they got a great deal, the dealer makes a profit, and so does MIT.

The important point has already been made. Who cares how people spend their money.

True enough. But I tell ya what, if MIT hits $800 million in sales this year across all their cables, I'll buy you a set of these. I bet dollars to donuts they've not done $800 million in sales since their inception in 2000. So we're talking a product that appeals to the creme de la creme financially, which is what a statement product should do.

I agree. I was just using random figures to make a point, but I will be happy if they do hit $800 million this year. I will resell my new cables and buy something else.

On a serious note, I truly doubt they will be much better than my current cables. I am sure they will sound different, but not by much.

mikeyb128

I hate the cable debate. But I have some wireworld, nordost, and MIT in the house where I could tell you which one is which on my system blindfolded with ease.

I used to have a roommate that was a cable naysayer. I started a modest 2 channel system in our living room (he was broke). One day he says to me, man the Stereo is sounding really great! What did you do? I told him I bought new speaker cables. He laughed at me until I pulled him over to the system and showed him. I think that he is the poster child for the blindfold experiments.

It's like saying all tubes sound the same. They built them to the same specs right? it makes me ragey lol.

txcoastal1

^^^^Lol
One of DSkips buddies(non audio dude) who was at LSAF a few years ago had his cherry popped with cables. There was a group of us listening, he was really paying no attention (we were drinkin' ) while we did a cable swap. We fired the system back up after the swap...1st person to speak up was his buddy "WTH the sounds awesome what did you do"

Answer:
"Swapped cables"

BlueFox

I think this is more of a price/performance debate than a cable debate. In the 21st century, only a fool would argue cables do not make a difference.

txcoastal1

Changing cables:
If you have never experienced "it", I don't expect you to get "it". When it does happen you will know "it".

And "it" may not happen every time and sometimes it's not for the better, and is not always the "more expensive"

mikeyb128

BlueFox wrote: »

I think this is more of a price/performance debate than a cable debate. In the 21st century, only a fool would argue cables do not make a difference.

I agree with you, but it has turned cable debate/
Politics somehow? These types of threads always fly off topic, Maybe it's my reading comprehension this time. Also it's Friday I've had a few, and some Mark knopfler playing quite loud. Oops I'm off topic again. Please carry on.

BlueFox

LOL. I only jumped into this after a few Friday night beers.

F1nut

But then you have many in this thread wholeheartedly defending cables pushing the already expansive pricing boundaries of the market without having ever heard them

I'll "defend" $250k speakers too just because.

nooshinjohn

nbrowser wrote: »

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I've said this before, If you think mark up on cables is bad... Just look at the automotive industry (which I've worked in for about 12 years, including high end). I've seen 10 dollar parts sell for 120. Maybe we should start ragging on people for spending obscene amounts fixing their p.o.s. cars too?

Oh like this '02 GTI 1.8T that I'm about to throw a pound of sand into the crankcase of?

You will need sodium silicate to put that dog down.

mikeyb128

nbrowser wrote: »

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I've said this before, If you think mark up on cables is bad... Just look at the automotive industry (which I've worked in for about 12 years, including high end). I've seen 10 dollar parts sell for 120. Maybe we should start ragging on people for spending obscene amounts fixing their p.o.s. cars too?

Oh like this '02 GTI 1.8T that I'm about to throw a pound of sand into the crankcase of?

Whoa! Is that's cuz it's hard to fix? Waaaaa!

motorstereo

Who really cares if those $80G cables make a difference or not? I won't offer any speculation on their possible sound as I know for a fact that I'll never bring home a pair on my meager income. I'm also betting 99% of the general population falls into this category as well so I am not alone.

But the entertainment value of the past 7 pages of grown men getting riled up and fighting amoungst themselves about them is completely off the charts. Carry on please as there isn't anything on tv worth watching right now

tonyb

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I've said this before, If you think mark up on cables is bad... Just look at the automotive industry (which I've worked in for about 12 years, including high end). I've seen 10 dollar parts sell for 120. Maybe we should start ragging on people for spending obscene amounts fixing their p.o.s. cars too?

LMAO.....truth is sometimes hard to swallow. Appliance parts, same thing. Cost under 2 bucks, but 150 to buy it from a repair shop and have them install it. Sure you can say a big chunk of that is labor and your paying for their know how, but 148 bucks worth ?

X,

Politics and audio cables ? Whatever your drinking, switch. lol

We have cars that cost upwards of 500k, still do the same thing a Ford Focus will do in regards to getting you from point A to Point B. I don't question the worth of 80k cables, just company wise decisions in creating them. Obviously MIT thinks there is a market for them, and they can sell a limited amount. Still a lot of very rich dudes on the planet where 80k is pocket change to them.

Sometimes it's hard to fathom a world/lifestyle that we will never live in. Just in our own little world of audio, you see naysayers who will never experience Pass mono blocks or 3k dacs, 1k cables, etc. Their own wallet clouds their judgment....and opinions.

If your truly interested in better audio, it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. Even the stuff you never will be able to afford is worth a listen when you can get it. I can never afford a Ferrari, but I'll be damned if I ever pass on an opportunity to drive one.

When it comes to audio, get your ears on as much as you can, even if you know you'll never be able to afford it. You simply adjust that down to meet your own wallet is all, but your ears have a better baseline on the sound your looking for. Part of the fun of audio is listening to the variety of gear and cables out there. Not to mention you may make a few friends along the way.

Kinda like a Football game....the old armchair quarterback analogy. It's easy to sit in the stands, question everything on the field, opine about what is needed, or not needed, who's a POS, who's not, what coach is worthless, etc. However a different perspective may emerge if you were actually on the playing field playing the game. In audio, you can't sit in the stands for long without getting involved. You have to play a bit, so those armchair QB opinions mean something.

xsmi

I've said when I first started reading this that if never buy cables this expensive. Then as I thought about it, I've said on this forum that if I won the powerball, my first stop is Progressive Audio in Ann Arbor to pick up my pair of Sonus Faber Aidas. Cost? $125K. So a pair of $80K speaker cables aren't completely out of the question! Wow that dream system has all of sudden gotten much more expensive. LOL

befuddle

I thought when one becomes mega rich the term expensive only applied to Lear jets, luxury yachts, mansions, private Caribbean islands, and Divorce!!

xsmi

And that last one being the most expensive of all.

DarqueKnight

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I also know that Ray, while providing scope grabs, always uses his ears as the final judge in a modification or upgrade.

Measurements can only tell you about electrical performance. Measurements cannot tell you about STEREOPHONIC performance. Only the ear can do that.

Electrical measurements, particularly those that deal with electrical noise and signal integrity, can provide some insight into how a particular cable or component ***might*** affect such stereophonic performance parameters as image weight, image stability, and sound stage dimensions, but there is no specification or measurement technique that will tell you something along the lines of "this cable will improve image stability by __%.

There is a linear correlation among high quality parts, thoughtful low noise design, and increasing stereophonic performance. However, stereophonic performance is an illusion created in the mind of the listener. Even if it could be quantified that a particular cable can increase sound stage width by 2 feet at each side, there is no guarantee that every listener will hear the same, if any, sound stage expansion on their system, in their room, with their ears. This is why the inventors of home stereo systems emphasized ear training in sound localization, rather than training in laboratory measurements.

xcapri79 wrote: »

The always attacked Emo at least doesn't produce such nonsense, so there is no need to justify them.

In fact, they have produced detailed specs, tests and photos of their many products so it shows significant ignorance of the facts to even suggest asking for proof from them.

OK. Here is a quote from Emotiva's website:

"At the same time, Emotiva’s audiophile credentials mean we show up in the best audio systems as well—frequently replacing “megadollar” audio brands in the process. Emotiva delivers the emotion of live music, with all of the amazing range, detail, and delicacy you’re looking for."

1. What megadollar audio brands have been replaced by Emotiva components?
2. What performance metrics did the consumers use to decide that Emotiva components
outperformed their megadollar brands?
3. How was it determined that Emotiva delivers the emotion of live music? How was that measured? What competing audiophile brands was Emotiva gear quantitatively compared to with regard to delivering emotion?

Compare, and contrast, the comment on Emotiva's website with this comment on the Pass Labs website:

"Seven years in the making, the Point 8 Series [of power amplifiers] demonstrates our belief that the best products must be carefully adjusted until their components operate in harmony — then subjectively fine-tuned. Not satisfied with measurements alone, we put the amplifiers’ state-of-the-art engineering through an extensive, rigorous listening process using six different sound systems to deliver peak musical experiences."

There is also a wealth of technical design information on Pass Labs website and they are always willing to answer technical questions on the phone and via email.

xcapri79 wrote: »

With all due respect, I think if Tonyb and DK considers this objectively, they will agree with my general sentiment here.

I have plainly stated that I would like more information on the theory, and parts and construction quality of these $80,000 cables.

With that said, I am not mad at MIT for offering such expensive cables. They have the right to make and market whatever lawful item they wish. I find an $80,000 pair of speaker cables, which actually perform some useful purpose, far, far, less onerous than an $80,000 diamond ring, which is basically just a polished rock that has no intrinsic value, and no intrinsic usefulness. It is just a marketing invention.

I think the cable naysayers should ask themselves why they are having heart attacks and brain aneurisms about expensive audio cables when they have no problem with $100,000 polished rocks that spend most of the time in a jewelry box and a miniscule amount of time decorating some part of a human body.

lightman1

txcoastal1

xcapri79 wrote: »

DarqueKnight wrote: »

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I also know that Ray, while providing scope grabs, always uses his ears as the final judge in a modification or upgrade.

Measurements can only tell you about electrical performance. Measurements cannot tell you about STEREOPHONIC performance. Only the ear can do that.

Electrical measurements, particularly those that deal with electrical noise and signal integrity, can provide some insight into how a particular cable or component ***might*** affect such stereophonic performance parameters as image weight, image stability, and sound stage dimensions, but there is no specification or measurement technique that will tell you something along the lines of "this cable will improve image stability by __%.

There is a linear correlation among high quality parts, thoughtful low noise design, and increasing stereophonic performance. However, stereophonic performance is an illusion created in the mind of the listener. Even if it could be quantified that a particular cable can increase sound stage width by 2 feet at each side, there is no guarantee that every listener will hear the same, if any, sound stage expansion on their system, in their room, with their ears. This is why the inventors of home stereo systems emphasized ear training in sound localization, rather than training in laboratory measurements.

I found an interesting paper of the subject of spatial audio entitled, Multidimensional audio window management.

Wouldn't you agree that spatial audio effects to the listener including stereophonic presentation are really better achieved at the source end through recording techniques, or at the listener end through signal processing, (DSP for example), speaker design and arrangement, room design and treatments, and of course listener position and their training?

Here's a reason. I'm about 99% sure that room treatments, or DSP would have solved the sibilance. I'm glad I played the fool and swapped out the cables.


http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2235581#Comment_2235581
A little cable story at LSAF....Dynaudio/Threshold room
I was gathering and moving out the empty crates. I had thrown in some cables awaiting Doug's arrival to get some music rolling. Doug arrived and asked me to play
Bernadette Peters Blackbird rendition. He immediately noticed excess sibilance especially (see in bold)

"Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise."
Anything with a "S" sounded like "SSSSS" very annoying

I put a couple more tracks on Rebecca Pidgeon, and Susi Suh, same result. My biggest fear was the tubes in the Modwright pre. which would have sucked to start rolling while getting ready for show ....He calmed me down "lets try cables first"

We swapped source IC's with his TOTL cables and bam sibilance gone everything very tight and detailed without smearing

befuddle

I know its ignorant for me to ask since its likely beneath your level of technical expertise but have either of you checked out the 3 cable seminars from the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest? There may be parts that provide for a more compelling debate among those of a technical background.
And not it insult Darqueknight as i agree with your intent But using a 100000 diamond ring for an analogy in comparison to a 80g cable is flawed in the fact that the ring will hold a large percent of its value and may be worth more as time goes by, Same can be said of other collectables such as cars, art etc.Gold has no real value from a practical worth except for its use in circuit boards in space exploration and its ability to maintain its polished shine in artwork and yet it provides the basis for world economy

nooshinjohn

lightman1 wrote: »

Thanks for the courtesy flush...

txcoastal1

befuddle wrote: »

Gold has no real value from a practical worth except for its use in circuit boards in space exploration and its ability to maintain its polished shine in artwork and yet it provides the basis for world economy

I heard gold makes for a fine toilet
I read that on the internet

befuddle

I stand corrected,I take it you've seen that episode of lifestyles of the rich and famous showing the Donald's bathroom

heiney9

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Here's a reason. I'm about 99% sure that room treatments, or DSP would have solved the sibilance. I'm glad I played the fool and swapped out the cables.


http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2235581#Comment_2235581
A little cable story at LSAF....Dynaudio/Threshold room
I was gathering and moving out the empty crates. I had thrown in some cables awaiting Doug's arrival to get some music rolling. Doug arrived and asked me to play
Bernadette Peters Blackbird rendition. He immediately noticed excess sibilance especially (see in bold)

"Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise."
Anything with a "S" sounded like "SSSSS" very annoying

I put a couple more tracks on Rebecca Pidgeon, and Susi Suh, same result. My biggest fear was the tubes in the Modwright pre. which would have sucked to start rolling while getting ready for show ....He calmed me down "lets try cables first"

We swapped source IC's with his TOTL cables and bam sibilance gone everything very tight and detailed without smearing

Nah, unless you can measure it Xcrapi will just say you imagined it. See he won't actually test cables with his own ears. I bet even if he *did* hear a difference he would never admit it. Then he would no longer have anything to live for.

H9

F1nut

F1nut wrote: »

The always attacked Emo at least doesn't produce such nonsense, so there is no need to justify them.

And yet you do justify them, time and time again.

In fact, they have produced detailed specs, tests and photos of their many products so it shows significant ignorance of the facts to even suggest asking for proof from them.

So, where are the scope measurements? Where are the properly conducted repeatable listening tests? I mean, YOU are the one always asking for proof, so produce it.

Still waiting.......

txcoastal1

heiney9 wrote: »

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Here's a reason. I'm about 99% sure that room treatments, or DSP would have solved the sibilance. I'm glad I played the fool and swapped out the cables.


http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2235581#Comment_2235581
A little cable story at LSAF....Dynaudio/Threshold room
I was gathering and moving out the empty crates. I had thrown in some cables awaiting Doug's arrival to get some music rolling. Doug arrived and asked me to play
Bernadette Peters Blackbird rendition. He immediately noticed excess sibilance especially (see in bold)

"Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise."
Anything with a "S" sounded like "SSSSS" very annoying

I put a couple more tracks on Rebecca Pidgeon, and Susi Suh, same result. My biggest fear was the tubes in the Modwright pre. which would have sucked to start rolling while getting ready for show ....He calmed me down "lets try cables first"

We swapped source IC's with his TOTL cables and bam sibilance gone everything very tight and detailed without smearing

Nah, unless you can measure it Xcrapi will just say you imagined it. See he won't actually test cables with his own ears. I bet even if he *did* hear a difference he would never admit it. Then he would no longer have anything to live for.

H9

You would have had to have been really hard of hearing not notice it, it stuck out like a sore thumb. I even took a meter the the cable and tested it for shorts and open to make sure it wasn't defective.