Warm up time or is it my ears?
Comments
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I tried a cold start and a 2 hour warm up. I am not sure I could tell the difference however once I ran higher volume and then backed it off a bit it sure seemed like these 707s played more to my liking. I sort of think that simply leaving my equipment on with nothing playing did not make as much of a difference as warming things up with a load. I don't want to belabour the point but so far playing the same track I can tell that these speakers need to run a bit on higher volume before they start to open up which was not the case with the Monitor 70s as the fronts.
I am lactose intolerant so I have a cow bias but I don't think my ears are lying to me. -
BTW the bottoms that these 707s kick leaves no need for a sub
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Obi-Jin juku was a fool, and weak minded like his master. I sense a disturbance in the Force. A presence I've not felt since...................
Obi Gyn juju has taught him well.
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I can tell that these speakers need to run a bit on higher volume before they start to open up which was not the case with the Monitor 70s as the fronts.
Makes perfect sense, the 707's are a larger speaker with more drivers.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I am lactose intolerant so I have a cow bias but I don't think my ears are lying to me.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I feel compelled to comment, despite the fact that this thread has deteriorated into… well, let’s just say that it’s not a dispassionate, intellectual conversation.
Below are portions of a couple of posts by AudioCircle forum member Duke (listed as an industry professional). I think this may help explain why some speakers may sound different after warming up vs. when ‘cold’.
Cheers, Jim
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The most well-known power compression type is long-term thermal compression, which is primarily a function of the magnet heating up over time and temporarily losing strength. If operated at 1/10th its rated power for a while, it's typical for a driver to lose about 1 dB to compression. At 1/2 its rated power this rises to about 2.5 dB ballpark, and then about 4 dB at full power. By "rated power", I mean its Audio Engineering Society protocol power rating, which is typically 1/2 its "music program" rating, which in turn is typically 1/2 its "peak power" rating.
A less well-known and well-documented phenomenon is "thermal modulation", which happens much more quickly, and which is primarily a function of rapid voice coil heating, which causes the voice coil's resistance to rise essentially instantaneously (the voice coil then cools down much more slowly as the heat is absorbed by the nearby motor structure and the air). Stereophile did an article on the subject some years ago and concluded that the effects of voice coil heating are negligible, but several experts in the field have come to different conclusions. One of them is Earl Geddes, who applied for a patent on an alloy for use as voice coil material that exhibited little or no rise in resistance with temperature. I believe a patent on a functionally similar alloy has been granted to JBL. And then not long ago I had an interesting conversation with Floyd Toole on the subject, and here is what he had to say:
"The audibility of power compression in its many variations probably could use some more research to define what is audible and what is tolerable. The magnet heating that you describe is important in pro audio sound reinforcement systems where the loudspeakers are required to work at or close to their design limits for long periods. Such heating and cooling has a very long time constant. This is not the case in most home systems. Although the modification of motor strength through magnet heating is a factor, most of the audible effects are from voice coil heating, which has a much shorter time constant. I just saw a test of a high-end audiophile speaker that in going from an average level of 70 dB (loud conversation, background music) to 90 dB (a moderate crescendo, or foreground rock listening) lost about 4 dB in output over about 3 octaves in the mid-high-frequency range. It became a different loudspeaker at different listening levels."
So one sonic downside of losing a few dB off of peaks due to thermal modulation from voice coil heating is, loss of emotional impact, because musicians use dynamic range to convey emotion. Another possible downside is, changing tonal balance with change in sound pressure level, as Toole describes above.
If you've ever heard a speaker that needs to be turned up to "come to life", you may have heard one of the consequences of dissimilar power compression characteristics among drivers. The "come to life" level may be where the relative loudness of the different drivers is correctly balanced, and at significantly higher or lower levels the tonal balance may be wrong. One advantage of high efficiency and/or high thermal capacity drivers is, their thermal characteristics are less likely to diverge at levels normally encountered in home audio, so their tonal balance stays the same across a wider range of volume levels. As a result, high efficiency speakers and high-thermal-capacity low to medium efficiency speakers usually still "come to life" at low volume levels.
As an example of this issue, suppose we were tasked with "voicing" the speaker Toole describes above. Let's say we wanted it to sound great at 90 dB so that it would impress people in a fairly loud demo. So we voice the speaker to be "flat" at 90 dB, where the midrange driver is compressing by 4 dB more than the woofer and tweeter. So down at 70 dB, the bass and treble would be 4 dB softer than the midrange, probably rendering the speaker boring and lifeless. At still lower levels, if anything the discrepancy would be even worse.
This points to an advantage of single-driver speakers - their tonal balance usually changes little as a result of thermal compression or thermal modulation (the short-time-constant effect Toole was talking about).
A day without music is like a day without food. -
Can't we all just get behind the following statement:
"It only matters how it sounds to you".....
And yes I realize its mainly the TROLLS that cant... but just saying..."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
The bet. We set up two identical systems. We test them with a bias controlled comparison to ensure they sound the same. We allow one to warm up all day and the other one for 10 minutes. Then we repeat the bias controlled test. If you can identify a difference, you get $5000. If you can't, I get $5000.
I have never tested this concept before so I am applying common sense to the issue. I did do a bias controlled test of speaker "break-in" once. We compare a pair B&W Matrix 801 speakers a dealer had had on demo for about three months to a brand new pair he unboxed to deliver to a customer. None of the 5 testers was able to distinguish between the two pairs.
I'm betting $5000 warm up of electronic audio gear will go the same way. Do you know where we can find two identical systems in the same room that can be switched to play through the same speakers?
I do that with my system every time I listen. Unless roughly an hour of warm up is allowed, the system definitely sounds different at start up vs. powered up for an hour or so. That's when the most marked differences are heard. Give it 1/2 a day and there are improvements as well, just much less.
What you and your bias control aren't taking into account is that some pieces of gear need (because of the design) to "settle in" before they start sounding their best. It's a know fact tubes take time to "settle in" before they start to perform optimally. Singled ended Class A amplifiers need about an hour for everything to bias up before they sound their best. You can even see that on a distortion analyzer. So it appears your blanket statement is flawed.
Please crawl back under your rock with Hab Monk and Jinjuku.
Cheers
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I know this won't appease the bias control gods. But here is a quote from the father of transistor amps and he has more credentials than fmw could ever hope to have. I highlighted the important part.
It takes about an hour of warm up time to get the best performance out of the amplifier [Aleph 30]. It will take that long to reach operating temperature and exhibit lowest distortion and noise. This is not a subjective judgment, but based on actual distortion and noise measurements. Many customers have reported that longer warm up yields more improvement.
Cheers
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I know this won't appease the bias control gods. But here is a quote from the father of transistor amps and he has more credentials than fmw could ever hope to have. I highlighted the important part.
It takes about an hour of warm up time to get the best performance out of the amplifier [Aleph 30]. It will take that long to reach operating temperature and exhibit lowest distortion and noise. This is not a subjective judgment, but based on actual distortion and noise measurements. Many customers have reported that longer warm up yields more improvement.
Yeah, maybe that's why the manufacturers of high performance solid state audio gear, including Pass, advise leaving their gear on 24/7.
On the other hand, this could be a vast conspiracy between high end audio manufacturers and the electric power industry to jack up our power bills.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Read Somewhere in my benchmark manual to let the dac warm up for a half hour, will try to find it , probably won't now that I told everyone. So got home today, girlfriends out, time to crank it. So guess what? Did it cold. Yes it sounds good. I enjoyed it. At almost exactly a half hour, the bass came alive, the highs smoothed right out... Everything sounds fuller. Sound stage opened right up. Greater depth. I'm a believer. I bet in 2 hours it will sound even better.2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
I know this won't appease the bias control gods. But here is a quote from the father of transistor amps and he has more credentials than fmw could ever hope to have. I highlighted the important part.
It takes about an hour of warm up time to get the best performance out of the amplifier [Aleph 30]. It will take that long to reach operating temperature and exhibit lowest distortion and noise. This is not a subjective judgment, but based on actual distortion and noise measurements. Many customers have reported that longer warm up yields more improvement.
Cheers
H9
He could be right. I don't know. Neither do you. What I do know is that not all measurable phenomena are audible. I also know that doing the comparison sighted won't answer that question. So look around to see if there is rock under which you can crawl. I'll wave to from my rock.
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And does it not also make sense that not all audible phenomena is measurable? I have heard subtle changes and marked improvements in my modest 2ch rig just fromHe could be right. I don't know. Neither do you. What I do know is that not all measurable phenomena are audible. I also know that doing the comparison sighted won't answer that question. So look around to see if there is rock under which you can crawl. I'll wave to from my rock.
different cables (power, IC, etc.). Were they measurable? I dunno, I lack the equipment
to make such determinations... well, other than my ears, which I rely on pretty heavily
when I am listening for sound.
There really is no right, is there? Test for yourself and decide for yourself. Do all that and post your findings, you might just end up helping someone else in the process.
H9 has owned that Pass amp for as long as I can remember, so I am sure he is not just "drinking the Kool-Aid" when he asserts that warm-up time makes a difference.
So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
And does it not also make sense that not all audible phenomena is measurable?He could be right. I don't know. Neither do you. What I do know is that not all measurable phenomena are audible. I also know that doing the comparison sighted won't answer that question. So look around to see if there is rock under which you can crawl. I'll wave to from my rock.
No, measurment instruments are far more sensitive than our hearing. If the audible difference isn't measurable, it will disappear in a bias controlled test every time.
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I am curious as to what measuring instrument I should be using to determine that a guitar solo is originating approximately 3' to the left of my left channel? Or that the lead vocals are just to the right of dead center, but a little higher than the top of the speakers?
But since we are stuck on bias control testing, and not sitting in my den enjoying some excellent Steely Dan, never mind. You win.So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
No, measurment instruments are far more sensitive than our hearing. If the audible difference isn't measurable, it will disappear in a bias controlled test every time.
Psychoacoustics disagrees with you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
But I am sure that you people will come up with some way to claim that it isn't a *real* science or some other inane **** like you always do.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
I am curious as to what measuring instrument I should be using to determine that a guitar solo is originating approximately 3' to the left of my left channel? Or that the lead vocals are just to the right of dead center, but a little higher than the top of the speakers?
But since we are stuck on bias control testing, and not sitting in my den enjoying some excellent Steely Dan, never mind. You win.
Stereo imaging is determined at the mixing console. Nobody is suggesting that you can't hear the imaging. My comment was that changing amplifiers won't change the imaging. Changing speakers or speaker placement, however, can do so. -
No, measurment instruments are far more sensitive than our hearing. If the audible difference isn't measurable, it will disappear in a bias controlled test every time.
Psychoacoustics disagrees with you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
But I am sure that you people will come up with some way to claim that it isn't a *real* science or some other inane **** like you always do.
Nothing in that article disagrees with me.
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Nothing in that article disagrees with me.
Except for the fact that you dismiss that everyone processes what they hear differently...a minor thing really.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Nonsense. I'm very aware of how hearing bias causes people to process sounds differently. I haven't dismissed that at all. All I have said is some audible differences are in the equipment and some of it is in those differences in the way people process sounds. We all have hearing bias. It is human nature. I understand it very well having spent so much time testing it. Nothing in that article disagrees with what I say.
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Stereo imaging is determined at the mixing console. Nobody is suggesting that you can't hear the imaging. My comment was that changing amplifiers won't change the imaging. Changing speakers or speaker placement, however, can do so.
Once again, your ignorance and/or lack of experience on the matter comes shining through.
On another note, I see you're not very good at keeping your word, but I'm far from surprised.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Stereo imaging is determined at the mixing console. Nobody is suggesting that you can't hear the imaging. My comment was that changing amplifiers won't change the imaging. Changing speakers or speaker placement, however, can do so.
Once again, your ignorance and/or lack of experience on the matter comes shining through.
On another note, I see you're not very good at keeping your word, but I'm far from surprised.
My lack of experience, huh? That made me chuckle. I came back because a member of this forum asked me to. He explained that you and a few others are the loud mouthed bullies that try to get people who dissent from your beliefs to leave. I honored the request. Now, would you like to debate what I said or are you just a loud mouthed bully? -
So, you let one of the forum trolls pull your string. I'm sure X is laughing his a$$ off at you right now.
There's nothing to debate. You are wrong, period.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Guys I've said this many times and it does hold true for me. The instant I turn on my Adcom 555 and what ever source I hear absolutely no difference from start up or for hours running. Now for the tubers I get it they do need the time and here's a little story. I bought some speakers years ago from a dude in his Florida room. I said this is nice stuff,so what do you use for your personal use. He says I usually don't show my house but since your not a kid I'll give you a look. At 1st I almost bumped in these huge Albert Van Alstines I think the TOTL models. Then on the floor were 2 giant mono blocks (brand not known) and I asked if I could hear these things. He said no they need a GOOD HOUR TO GET TO PRIME LISTENING FULFILMENT. An hour kishmeirinkuchas, I need instant gratification which my Adcom gives me.....2chl- Adcom GFA- 555-Onkyo P-3150v pre/amp- JVC-QL-A200 tt- Denon 1940 ci cdp- Adcom GFS-6 -Modded '87 SDA 2Bs - Dynamat Ext.- BH-5- X-Overs VR-3, RDO-194 tweeters, Larry's Rings, Speakon/Neutrik I/C- Cherry stain tops Advent Maestros,Ohm model E
H/T- Toshiba au40" flat- Yamaha RX- V665 avr- YSD-11 Dock- I-Pod- Klipsch #400HD Speaker set-
Bdrm- Nikko 6065 receiver- JBL -G-200s--Pioneer 305 headphones--Sony CE375-5 disc -
My SS Pass Aleph 30 needs an hour or two to sound its best. I leave it on most of the time because of this. Totally agree with H9's comments above, and I'm not about to argue with the designer.b]Beach Audio[/b]: Rega RP6 (mods) - AT33PTG/II - Parks Budgie SUT - PSAudio NPC * Eversolo DMP-A6 * Topping D90iii * Joule-Electra LA-100 mkIII * Pass Aleph 30 * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 2.3tl (mods) * PSAudio PPP3
Beach Study: Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra & Pre Box S2 * Pass ACA * DH Labs SS Q10 * Brines Folded ML-TQWT RS 40-1354 * PSA Dectet
Beach Master: WiiM Pro * Dayens Menuetto * Zu Libtec * Dynaudio Audience 50
Beach Den: Bluesound Powernode 2i * DH Labs SS Q10 * Zu Omen DWII * Richard Gray RGPC
Town Study: WiiM Pro * Chord Qute (Pardo) * Elekit TU-8600 * MIT S3 * Revel M22 * Beyer DT-990 * Shunyata Hydra 2
Town Den: Music Hall mm5.1se - Denon DL-103r - Jolida JD9ii (mods) * WiiM Pro * Cary xCiter * Rogue 99 Magnum * Schiit Aegir * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 1.2tl (mods) * Dectet * Bottlehead Crack - Senn 600
Town Porch: WiiM Pro Plus * Sunfire Sig II * Canare 4S11 * Magnepan 1.6 * Dectet -
Stereo imaging is determined at the mixing console. Nobody is suggesting that you can't hear the imaging. My comment was that changing amplifiers won't change the imaging. Changing speakers or speaker placement, however, can do so.
Once again, your ignorance and/or lack of experience on the matter comes shining through.
On another note, I see you're not very good at keeping your word, but I'm far from surprised.
My lack of experience, huh? That made me chuckle. I came back because a member of this forum asked me to. He explained that you and a few others are the loud mouthed bullies that try to get people who dissent from your beliefs to leave. I honored the request. Now, would you like to debate what I said or are you just a loud mouthed bully?
So what guarantees can you post that you are unequivocally correct other than you and some others said it was so....
Not a debate just a question
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I am curious as to what measuring instrument I should be using to determine that a guitar solo is originating approximately 3' to the left of my left channel? Or that the lead vocals are just to the right of dead center, but a little higher than the top of the speakers?
But since we are stuck on bias control testing, and not sitting in my den enjoying some excellent Steely Dan, never mind. You win.
Stereo imaging is determined at the mixing console. Nobody is suggesting that you can't hear the imaging. My comment was that changing amplifiers won't change the imaging. Changing speakers or speaker placement, however, can do so.
Just to be clear, you are saying my NAD 2150 and a pair of Pass mono blocks will create the same soundstage, and only my sighted bias can tell the difference?Polk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
I am curious as to what measuring instrument I should be using to determine that a guitar solo is originating approximately 3' to the left of my left channel? Or that the lead vocals are just to the right of dead center, but a little higher than the top of the speakers?
But since we are stuck on bias control testing, and not sitting in my den enjoying some excellent Steely Dan, never mind. You win.
Stereo imaging is determined at the mixing console. Nobody is suggesting that you can't hear the imaging. My comment was that changing amplifiers won't change the imaging. Changing speakers or speaker placement, however, can do so.
Just to be clear, you are saying my NAD 2150 and a pair of Pass mono blocks will create the same soundstage, and only my sighted bias can tell the difference?
Hmmm, so all you Polk bung holios lead me astray, caused my divorce, and emptied my pocket book looking for the path of audio righteousness when i could have bought a **** amp that would give me all the sound stage I needed for cheap...shame on all of you
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
