Warm up time or is it my ears?
Comments
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fmw wrote:My limited experience about audible difference testing is a quantum leap ahead of those on this forum.
All 10 seconds? Your testing methods are a joke.
It is fun to watch you throw stones from the middle school playground but, truthfully, your aim is pretty bad. -
In order to make a change in the stream something has to change in the pulse or the voltage to alter the digital value of the signal. Common sense tells you that cables don't do that. My tests tell me beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables don't do that. Any audible differences with digital cables are hearing bias, not the cables.
First, learn how to quote. Being unable to perform that simple 'technical' feat indicates a total lack of technical skills, and your response above, again, demonstrates your total lack of understanding of how a digital signal is reconstructed from an analog signal.
Timing is the thing that can change when the digital signal is recreated from an analog source (cable). It is called jitter, and digital cables can introduce it. Depending on the receiver circuitry, the new jitter can be either removed or not. If not then it will be audible in the audio output.
We have now learned from you that your testing is based on false assumptions, which leads to false results. Good job.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
In order to make a change in the stream something has to change in the pulse or the voltage to alter the digital value of the signal. Common sense tells you that cables don't do that. My tests tell me beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables don't do that. Any audible differences with digital cables are hearing bias, not the cables.
First, learn how to quote. Being unable to perform that simple 'technical' feat indicates a total lack of technical skills, and your response above, again, demonstrates your total lack of understanding of how a digital signal is reconstructed from an analog signal.
Timing is the thing that can change when the digital signal is recreated from an analog source (cable). It is called jitter, and digital cables can introduce it. Depending on the receiver circuitry, the new jitter can be either removed or not. If not then it will be audible in the audio output.
We have now learned from you that your testing is based on false assumptions, which leads to false results. Good job.
What assumption are you talking about? We just listen to music through different digital cables and measure whether there are audible differences or not. There isn't much point in arguing from a position of no experience to someone who has actually done the tests. Also there isn't much point in telling me that jitter in the picosecond area is audible. We tested that as well. There you go folks. Now you can all gang up and defend the audibility of jitter.
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^^^^^Bahahaha...now that's funny2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Now children. Calm down. Your mother wouldn't approve of your language.
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Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
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afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Kind of surprised this hasn't been closed by now. It is a good read though.2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm. -
Now children. Calm down. Your mother wouldn't approve of your language.
FMW, don't worry about other people language. It's a forum for 18+ and I don't see a single post warrant any moderation and no one's swearing at anyone including you.
Who are these newcomers you are trying to save with your 10 second bias control tests?Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm.
Yawn.
We've "taken" quite a bit from you, actually, waiting for you to provide some more information other than your opinion about these 10 second, bias-controlled tests you seem so dependent on. Which is sort of like determining what food will taste like based on how it looks in a cookbook picture...
Vale, magister.
So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
Thanks byeafterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm.
I am tired of notifications being buried by all these post to t this thread. -
Also there isn't much point in telling me that jitter in the picosecond area is audible. We tested that as well. There you go folks. Now you can all gang up and defend the audibility of jitter.
Jitter isn't audible. LOL. Thanks for admitting you really have no idea what you are talking about, or are just trolling. Did your alter egos (Jinjuku and Habanero Monk) make you write that?
For the lurkers, and newcomers, here are two great videos from PS Audio regarding jitter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT_1UATci3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoKqnBJN8iQ
Also, here is some actual experience with digital cables. Previously, I had a Bryston BDP-1 file player, and a Bryston BDP2 DAC. They were connected via a Shunyata Python AES digital cable. On some CDs there was a high frequency noise (as mentioned in the above videos) that irritated the slight tinnitus in my left ear. I assumed the file player was the problem, so I bought a DAC with digital filters; the Auralic Vega. While the filters did reduce the noise, it was still there, but less harsh so it did not really bother me as before. After a few months with this setup, I upgraded the digital cable to the TOTL Shunyata Anaconda AES digital cable. After doing that, the noise was gone. WTF! It turns out the cable was the issue. Shunyata said their new Anaconda was a big improvement in a digital cable, and it was.
This was experience based on months of listening to the stereo, and becoming intimately familiar with it, and the music.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
No jitter? So a cheap $20 portable CD player and a Marantz SA-8004, or better, should pretty much sound the "same". Is that what you're saying? DAC design, clock, sampling, power, weight, damping, and so on, would, I assume have NO impact on the sound?
Yet, almost EVERY major player in the CD/SACD manufacturing sector seems overly concerned with jitter and more!
How about some proof on this "opinion". I know just about everyone here has heard significant differences in CDP performance, but hey, the majority of us just have to be "wrong". lol
On another note, living in a place that has QUALITY winters that often dip into the negative digits at night, I'd suggest earmuffs to "warm up" your ears! Unfortunately, when it's twenty below it will take more the 10 seconds to warm them!Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Well CNH, he did say part of his experiment included a portable cdp vs. a 4500 buck dac....and couldn't hear a difference. If that's the case, he should take up gardening where results are visual and not audible.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
It is fun to watch you throw stones from the middle school playground but, truthfully, your aim is pretty bad.
Truth is my aim was righteous, as always. It not only showed you up for the joke you are, it helped get you to fold in defeat. LMAO
BTW, you should see my groupings at the range.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
DarqueKnight wrote:You seem to believe that blind/double blind testing is the only form of bias controlled testing. There are many types of bias controlled tests specified for different types of sensory stimuli and different types of test subjects. The peer-reviewed sensory science literature has much credible information for those with an honest interest in the subject.
I don't know why you think that because I didn't say that.
Am I mistaken? Please point out where you have referenced other types of audio testing that didn't involve blinding.All I have said is that some audible differences in audio equipment disappear in blind tests.
All I have consistently said is that some audible differences in audio equipment disappear in POORLY AND DISHONESTLY constructed blind tests.
I could "prove" that any doctor is medically incompetent if I gave them a multiple choice basic human anatomy test with 200 questions and only 1 hour to finish.OK, but we didn't test any complex sensory stimuli. We did our best to eliminate all of them except for hearing and only tested for the existence of audible differences.
Stereophonic music is a complex sensory experience. You can't properly test how well something is presented by removing parts of the presentation. That is as crazy as saying you are going to evaluate two color televisions by watching black and white material and then saying there is no difference in their color presentation. That is as crazy as saying you are going to evaluate two cakes by removing all the ingredients except flour and sugar and then saying there is no difference in their tastes.DarqueKnight wrote:You need to do a more in-depth study of what kind of bias control testing is appropriate for a specific audio scenario, then come back and speak from knowledge, rather than limited experience and shallow understanding.
You think I should study something that has not been studied and written about. I would suggest to you that you do some tests like we did and come back. Then we will talk. My limited experience about audible difference testing is a quantum leap ahead of those on this forum.
Descriptive methods of evaluating stereophonic audio systems have been studied and written about in scientific journals since the time that such systems were invented. One of the articles I cited earlier has many such references:
[1] Beaubein, W. H. and Moore, H. B., "Perception of Stereophonic Effect as a Function of Frequency", Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 8, No. 2, April 1960, pp. 76-86.
[2] Fletcher, Harvey, "Symposium on Wire Transmission of Symphonic Music and Its Reproduction in Auditory Perspective-Basic Requirements", Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 13, 1934, pp. 239-244.
[3] Moor, J. and Leslie, J. A., "The Stereophonic Reproduction of Speech and Music", Journal of the British Institution of Radio Engineers, London, September 1951, pp. 360-366.
[4] Fletcher, Harvey, "Hearing, The Determining Factor for High-Fidelity Transmission", Proceedings of the I.R.E., Columbus, OH, June 1942, pp. 266-277.
[5] Steinberg, J. C., and Snow, W. B., "Symposium on Wire Transmission of Symphonic Music and Its Reproduction in Auditory Perspective-Physical Factors", Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 13, 1934, pp. 245-258.
Above references from:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/104701/a-survey-of-early-stereophonic-system-subjective-evaluationThat is a completely different test. In those tests you were comparing audible differences and judging which was the more intelligible. You listened and voted for the preferred sound. It is something like a preference test like those done by Dr. Olive at Harman. If you had encountered a comparison with the same sound on both sides your results would been similar to guesswork.
It is that audible difference we tested. Which of the two units did you just hear, A or
B? Guess works proves there is no audible difference. Majority right or wrong answers prove that there is an audible difference. It is not a preference test.
I was not speaking of preference testing. If you had any scientific understanding of human audio perception you would not have made this mistake.Above you talked about sensory stimuli so you certainly understand that, when the ears and brain can't make a determination about a difference, it takes shortcuts and factors in other stimuli - sight, expectation, preference, mood etc.
The brain does not take short cuts in perception when it is properly trained to evaluate something. Naïve shoppers are swayed by price, brand name, slick marketing, and flashy appearance. Educated shoppers are trained in evaluating a product based on its performance, value and reliability.It is strange to me that a scientific person like you can't understand that removing these stimuli gets down to an unvarnished truth about audible differences. I can't explain it to myself except to assume denial on your part.
What is really bizarre is that you think the only credible method for evaluating a complex sensory event is to reduce the level of complexity, rather than train the brain and senses to properly evaluate the event. Such a test, where the thing evaluated is not a true representation of itself, CAN ONLY provide false data.
You are the one in deep denial that equipment designed to present a three dimensional sound field can accurately be evaluated with 10 second snippets of sound. It is as ludicrous as saying food with complex flavors can be evaluated with fingernail sized samples.In order to make a change in the stream something has to change in the pulse or the voltage to alter the digital value of the signal. Common sense tells you that cables don't do that. My tests tell me beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables don't do that. Any audible differences with digital cables are hearing bias, not the cables. Every audible difference in digital cables will disappear in a blind test. Every time. Try it. It is a very easy test because it doesn't require any level matching. Seriously, if you truly believe that a cable can alter the digital value of the signal, you should have no fear of such a test.
Noise content can also have audible effect on a digital pulse stream. Noise represents error, and the effects of that error can pass through the digital to analog conversion process and show up as a audible detriment in the sound coming from the loudspeakers.
Over the years, I have done many analyses of cables where I measured the input and output waveforms and measured whether the differences were within the range of human audibility. Have you done similar studies? Here are some of mine:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/162693/revelation-audio-labs-passage-cryosilver-reference-db25-power-cable
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/163098/revisiting-magnetic-shielding-for-the-pass-labs-xp-25-phono-preamp
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/165959/digital-interconnect-cables-whats-your-experience/p2
Since you are not interested in stereophonic performance parameters such as imaging, sound stage, image weight, and tactile sensation, you are blissfully ignorant of how the synergy between cables and components can affect stereophonic performance.
It's a shame that you want to force people to have the bland, joyless, shades of gray, audio experience you endure.
Thanks for playing.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Jitter isn't audible. LOL. Thanks for admitting you really have no idea what you are talking about, or are just trolling.
It is a combination of both.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm.
wait!! not before I can Ignore you.2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge
HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD -
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm.
Buh bye now... -
As Kramer would say....I'M OUT !!!HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I even heard a difference when swapping the stock linear walwart vs. a linear power supply on my music server. Of course I listened to more than 10 second snippets of source material. A marked improvement in soundstage depth, instrument separation and high frequency extension.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
It's a shame that you want to force people to have the bland, joyless, shades of gray, audio experience you endure.
You know, I was one of "those" who "enjoyed bland joyless shades of gray" then found this place. Lots of helpful friendly people here guided me to one hell of a kick rear end hybrid rig that's fronted by the best sounding monoliths I've ever heard. Yep synergy is there as well as enough in power reserves for powerful transients. I'm sure anyone could get along with a $100 receiver and cheap bookies but not me and several others as evidenced by the group we have here.
Now to get serious about refreshing my SDAs crossovers soon and let em shine.
P.S., the system sounds much better after it's had at least an hour to warm up and get the electrons flowing nicely.
Yeah, you were one of "those people". lol
Yet you kept an open mind, tried some stuff, and your musical enjoyment has expanded. Isn't that what it's all about ? No bias testing needed in 10 second snippets , no friends needed to tell you what you should or shouldn't hear.
Now that your at a place of higher music enjoyment, betcha your friends who all hold a Roger Russell report in their back pockets are scratching their heads huh ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I sense something. A presence I have not felt since............................................
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Lord Vader wrote: »I sense something. A presence I have not felt since............................................
Viagra finally working for you?
2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge
HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD -
"Warm up time" to an Italian is called a microwave....for those left over meatball subs and Lasagna. Even cold meatball subs are pretty awesome.
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Fun read.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
"Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
" I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
"Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
"Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
"Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member
Perfect.
