Warm up time or is it my ears?
Comments
-
Thanks but my experiences say otherwise.
Translation:I don't understand any of this, but I'll keep side stepping and hopefully they won't notice.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Another gem of the 10 second method.fmw wrote:If it helps the OP our group tested a number of DAC's and CD players ranging from a portable CD player to a $4500 DAC/Transport unit and weren't able to hear an audible difference between any of them in a bias controlled comparison.
Just in case it hasn't become obvious to any newcomer, the so-called experiences of fmw are seriously flawed, ignore them and him.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Moral of the story, anything dealing with the perception of the 5 senses cannot be judged with blanket statements without substantiated evidence. Art, sound, food, and objects of touch are personal.
You can give examples of experience but not deny what others perceive...because you just don't know.2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Yeah, it is true. For example, your complaints about some threads here amounts to bullying.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I find that there are some exaggerations made of the "analog" significance of digital signals on a cable which doesn't properly recognize how digital signal processing and error correction is truly achieved.
Please be more specific with regard to the exaggerations you found.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Time is the one thing that cannot be bartered, purchased or even stolen. Why waste it arguing with people like fmw or x? It always ends the same way. Ignore them.Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
1KVA Dreadnought
Marantz SA 8005
Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
Sony PS4
Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video
"All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER" -
Ok keyboard cowboys, stand down, chill out, fire up your perfectly assembled stereos and just turn it up a notch or ten...maybe add in an adult beverage and enjoy your finely crafted sound. I know I will be doing just that, tomorrow night
Me too! And I'm gonna leave my amps on all day for a nice warm up
hehehehe
2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
Me too. In fact I turned the amps on when I got home tonight, so they will be ready to rock tomorrow night. Unfortunately, it is poker night so I won't be able to get to them until around 1 AM Saturday. Now they are playing, but even better, heating the house.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »The experiences not shared by others on the forum are those of bias controlled testing. Every time I mention it the roof comes down on my head. the rest of us have never experienced.I owe you a better answer than the hand wave I wrote before. It was bed timeYou seem to believe that blind/double blind testing is the only form of bias controlled testing. There are many types of bias controlled tests specified for different types of sensory stimuli and different types of test subjects. The peer-reviewed sensory science literature has much credible information for those with an honest interest in the subject.
I don't know why you think that because I didn't say that. All I have said is that some audible differences in audio equipment disappear in blind tests. I don't know what others have said.Descriptive testing is a far more powerful method of bias control than simple discrimination tests, particularly for complex sensory stimuli like a stereophonic sound field.
OK, but we didn't test any complex sensory stimuli. We did our best to eliminate all of them except for hearing and only tested for the existence of audible differences.You need to do a more in-depth study of what kind of bias control testing is appropriate for a specific audio scenario, then come back and speak from knowledge, rather than limited experience and shallow understanding.
You think I should study something that has not been studied and written about. I would suggest to you that you do some tests like we did and come back. Then we will talk. My limited experience about audible difference testing is a quantum leap ahead of those on this forum.You assumed that you are the only one here with experience in bias controlled experiments. Why would you say such a thing and you have no knowledge of the academic and professional backgrounds of the members? In my case, I did many years of bias controlled experiments on sound quality of telephone equipment as a manufacturing and research and development engineer for AT&T and Bell Laboratories.
That is a completely different test. In those tests you were comparing audible differences and judging which was the more intelligible. You listened and voted for the preferred sound. It is something like a preference test like those done by Dr. Olive at Harman. If you had encountered a comparison with the same sound on both sides your results would been similar to guesswork.
It is that audible difference we tested. Which of the two units did you just hear, A or
B? Guess works proves there is no audible difference. Majority right or wrong answers prove that there is an audible difference. It is not a preference test.The simple-minded "one kind of test fits all audio" mindset is indicative of a crippling lack of intellectual curiosity and honesty. It is also indicative of the most shallow understanding of basic scientific audio concepts.
Above you talked about sensory stimuli so you certainly understand that, when the ears and brain can't make a determination about a difference, it takes shortcuts and factors in other stimuli - sight, expectation, preference, mood etc. It is strange to me that a scientific person like you can't understand that removing these stimuli gets down to an unvarnished truth about audible differences. I can't explain it to myself except to assume denial on your part.The fact that you think that a "digital" cable cannot make an audible difference because "it is only transmitting 1s and 0s" is a common misunderstanding. There is no such thing as a binary digital signal. Such a signal only exists as a theoretical abstract concept. There is no method known to science that will generate a signal that can instantaneously switch between only two discrete amplitudes (high and low value). What is transmitted in digital cables is an analog approximation of a digital signal. The signal ramps up to a true maximum value (maximum overshoot) then settles down into a relatively flat, but rippled, nominal maximum value, then ramps down to true minimum value (maximum undershoot), then settles up into a relatively flat, but rippled, nominal minimum value, then the process repeats for respective "high" and "low" pulses. In this regard, a "digital" signal is actually a "pseudo-digital" signal that has the same infinitely-varying amplitude characteristics of an analog signal.
As you know, we represent digital information by changes between positive and negative or higher voltage and lower voltage or short pulse and long pulse. We need to do that in order to transmit it. With PCM we vary the pulse duration while in a computer, for instance, we vary the polarity of the voltage. And so it goes.
In order to make a change in the stream something has to change in the pulse or the voltage to alter the digital value of the signal. Common sense tells you that cables don't do that. My tests tell me beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables don't do that. Any audible differences with digital cables are hearing bias, not the cables. Every audible difference in digital cables will disappear in a blind test. Every time. Try it. It is a very easy test because it doesn't require any level matching. Seriously, if you truly believe that a cable can alter the digital value of the signal, you should have no fear of such a test.
Again, I'm sorry that I responded so curtly to your post. -
Another gem of the 10 second method.fmw wrote:If it helps the OP our group tested a number of DAC's and CD players ranging from a portable CD player to a $4500 DAC/Transport unit and weren't able to hear an audible difference between any of them in a bias controlled comparison.
Just in case it hasn't become obvious to any newcomer, the so-called experiences of fmw are seriously flawed, ignore them and him.
His test group......we have hundreds in our test group who will mostly say the exact opposite.
This is why newbies who just start getting into better audio are confused. The internet provides vast opinions to both sides of anything. This is why one needs to try things for themselves.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Another gem of the 10 second method.fmw wrote:If it helps the OP our group tested a number of DAC's and CD players ranging from a portable CD player to a $4500 DAC/Transport unit and weren't able to hear an audible difference between any of them in a bias controlled comparison.
Just in case it hasn't become obvious to any newcomer, the so-called experiences of fmw are seriously flawed, ignore them and him.
His test group......we have hundreds in our test group who will mostly say the exact opposite.
This is why newbies who just start getting into better audio are confused. The internet provides vast opinions to both sides of anything. This is why one needs to try things for themselves.
Apparently his advice applies to everyone but himself. -
Another gem of the 10 second method.fmw wrote:If it helps the OP our group tested a number of DAC's and CD players ranging from a portable CD player to a $4500 DAC/Transport unit and weren't able to hear an audible difference between any of them in a bias controlled comparison.
Just in case it hasn't become obvious to any newcomer, the so-called experiences of fmw are seriously flawed, ignore them and him.
His test group......we have hundreds in our test group who will mostly say the exact opposite.
This is why newbies who just start getting into better audio are confused. The internet provides vast opinions to both sides of anything. This is why one needs to try things for themselves.
Apparently his advice applies to everyone but himself.
How so ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
fmw wrote:My limited experience about audible difference testing is a quantum leap ahead of those on this forum.
All 10 seconds? Your testing methods are a joke.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Time is the one thing that cannot be bartered, purchased or even stolen. Why waste it arguing with people like fmw or x? It always ends the same way. Ignore them.
Agreed, but it is a bit entertaining. I have listened to the experienced here a have a much better system because of them. I appreciate it a lot.Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
DeletedPatriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel…….Samuel Johnson
Since we don’t know where we are going we have to stick together in case someone gets there….Ken Kesey
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.
– Kevin Alfred Strom -
fmw wrote:My limited experience about audible difference testing is a quantum leap ahead of those on this forum.
All 10 seconds? Your testing methods are a joke.
It is fun to watch you throw stones from the middle school playground but, truthfully, your aim is pretty bad. -
In order to make a change in the stream something has to change in the pulse or the voltage to alter the digital value of the signal. Common sense tells you that cables don't do that. My tests tell me beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables don't do that. Any audible differences with digital cables are hearing bias, not the cables.
First, learn how to quote. Being unable to perform that simple 'technical' feat indicates a total lack of technical skills, and your response above, again, demonstrates your total lack of understanding of how a digital signal is reconstructed from an analog signal.
Timing is the thing that can change when the digital signal is recreated from an analog source (cable). It is called jitter, and digital cables can introduce it. Depending on the receiver circuitry, the new jitter can be either removed or not. If not then it will be audible in the audio output.
We have now learned from you that your testing is based on false assumptions, which leads to false results. Good job.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
In order to make a change in the stream something has to change in the pulse or the voltage to alter the digital value of the signal. Common sense tells you that cables don't do that. My tests tell me beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables don't do that. Any audible differences with digital cables are hearing bias, not the cables.
First, learn how to quote. Being unable to perform that simple 'technical' feat indicates a total lack of technical skills, and your response above, again, demonstrates your total lack of understanding of how a digital signal is reconstructed from an analog signal.
Timing is the thing that can change when the digital signal is recreated from an analog source (cable). It is called jitter, and digital cables can introduce it. Depending on the receiver circuitry, the new jitter can be either removed or not. If not then it will be audible in the audio output.
We have now learned from you that your testing is based on false assumptions, which leads to false results. Good job.
What assumption are you talking about? We just listen to music through different digital cables and measure whether there are audible differences or not. There isn't much point in arguing from a position of no experience to someone who has actually done the tests. Also there isn't much point in telling me that jitter in the picosecond area is audible. We tested that as well. There you go folks. Now you can all gang up and defend the audibility of jitter.
-
^^^^^Bahahaha...now that's funny2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Now children. Calm down. Your mother wouldn't approve of your language.
-
Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
-
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Kind of surprised this hasn't been closed by now. It is a good read though.2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm. -
Now children. Calm down. Your mother wouldn't approve of your language.
FMW, don't worry about other people language. It's a forum for 18+ and I don't see a single post warrant any moderation and no one's swearing at anyone including you.
Who are these newcomers you are trying to save with your 10 second bias control tests?Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
afterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm.
Yawn.
We've "taken" quite a bit from you, actually, waiting for you to provide some more information other than your opinion about these 10 second, bias-controlled tests you seem so dependent on. Which is sort of like determining what food will taste like based on how it looks in a cookbook picture...
Vale, magister.
So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
Thanks byeafterburnt wrote: »Is there a way to unsubscribe from your own thread?
Not necessary. You folks can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm bored of interfacing with adolescents. I'll ban myself from this monkey farm.
I am tired of notifications being buried by all these post to t this thread. -
Also there isn't much point in telling me that jitter in the picosecond area is audible. We tested that as well. There you go folks. Now you can all gang up and defend the audibility of jitter.
Jitter isn't audible. LOL. Thanks for admitting you really have no idea what you are talking about, or are just trolling. Did your alter egos (Jinjuku and Habanero Monk) make you write that?
For the lurkers, and newcomers, here are two great videos from PS Audio regarding jitter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT_1UATci3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoKqnBJN8iQ
Also, here is some actual experience with digital cables. Previously, I had a Bryston BDP-1 file player, and a Bryston BDP2 DAC. They were connected via a Shunyata Python AES digital cable. On some CDs there was a high frequency noise (as mentioned in the above videos) that irritated the slight tinnitus in my left ear. I assumed the file player was the problem, so I bought a DAC with digital filters; the Auralic Vega. While the filters did reduce the noise, it was still there, but less harsh so it did not really bother me as before. After a few months with this setup, I upgraded the digital cable to the TOTL Shunyata Anaconda AES digital cable. After doing that, the noise was gone. WTF! It turns out the cable was the issue. Shunyata said their new Anaconda was a big improvement in a digital cable, and it was.
This was experience based on months of listening to the stereo, and becoming intimately familiar with it, and the music.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
No jitter? So a cheap $20 portable CD player and a Marantz SA-8004, or better, should pretty much sound the "same". Is that what you're saying? DAC design, clock, sampling, power, weight, damping, and so on, would, I assume have NO impact on the sound?
Yet, almost EVERY major player in the CD/SACD manufacturing sector seems overly concerned with jitter and more!
How about some proof on this "opinion". I know just about everyone here has heard significant differences in CDP performance, but hey, the majority of us just have to be "wrong". lol
On another note, living in a place that has QUALITY winters that often dip into the negative digits at night, I'd suggest earmuffs to "warm up" your ears! Unfortunately, when it's twenty below it will take more the 10 seconds to warm them!Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Well CNH, he did say part of his experiment included a portable cdp vs. a 4500 buck dac....and couldn't hear a difference. If that's the case, he should take up gardening where results are visual and not audible.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk
Perfect.