The world is laughing at US

kevhed72

Remember when only ONE of OUR parents HAD to work when we were kids....I hate to hark back to the good ole days, but the middle class has definitely gotten screwed in the past 20 years or so. Im wonderin when one of these morons running for president is going to figure out running on a middle class first platform is a ticket to the white house.

aprazer402

The Greatest Generation, of my parents, the housewife, the WWII veteran, hard working middle class families are gone, replaced with a new wave of immigrants and families that have relied on government assistance for a few generations of their own. I don't have any answers. It's probably too late, the largest voting block is probably to the other side already. The 2016 elections should be telling.

tonyb

Guys, no need to argue over home schooling and it's merits or faults. Max certainly comes from a position where he must have experienced some negative connotations from his choice.

I've never home schooled but I still hear the comments from others who are against it, mainly from Public school advocates. Somehow they are backwoods, doing their child a disservice, even child abusers for denying them Public school access.

We tend to label things/people who hold different views in negative ways so others stay away.

I'm not saying that's how you guys feel, just that I can understand Max being a bit touchy on his choice as I'm sure he's had to defend his position more times than he cared to.

Truth of the matter is, anything that involves more choice, more parent involvement, or takes something away from Public schools is thoroughly beat up on. I certainly don't have all the answers, all I know is you can't solve problems by x-ing out all the solutions presented.

smglbrth

We got a hard time from many people when we started over 20 years ago. Can you guess who gave us the hardest time? Persons from the public schools themselves. It didn't take long to figure out why, MONEY. I can't remember the exact numbers from back then but my wife and I couldn't believe how much the school received from the state for each child enrolled. Yes, we still paid the taxes for the schools (rolled up in the property tax) every year and never complained.

It only took about 10 years before members of our own family, and total strangers, recognized the difference in our kids, in a good way. I had one friend tell me he liked talking to our kids because he could actually have an intelligent conversation with them. Parental involvement is paramount, but that goes with everything, not just schooling.

My wife and I were never perfect at it obviously. It takes work from the parents, much harder work than many think...

maximillian

aprazer402 wrote: »

The Greatest Generation, of my parents, the housewife, the WWII veteran, hard working middle class families are gone, replaced with a new wave of immigrants and families that have relied on government assistance for a few generations of their own. I don't have any answers. It's probably too late, the largest voting block is probably to the other side already. The 2016 elections should be telling.

I'm an immigrant. Moved here with my parents from Italy in '74. Both parents worked in a factory for about 5 years. After that my dad started his own business and my mom continued working in other factories. At no time whatsoever did we take government assistance. We worked. My parents put me through a State University. I got an engineering degree and have worked hard for where I am today. My wife came from a poor family from Maine; I didn't marry into any type of financial stability that allows her to stay at home.

Not every immigrant is a deadbeat. Talk to some of them. Hispanic guy at my job's cafetteria works 3 jobs. He works harder than we ever did.

maximillian

smglbrth wrote: »

We got a hard time from many people when we started over 20 years ago. Can you guess who gave us the hardest time?

Sorry you went through this. We actually didn't. The most resistance I got was from my sister. She was a public educator and now owns a private English tutoring school abroad. That "resistance" was on par with the little bit of resistance I am getting here, mild. Generally speaking I find more people are opening up to the idea of home schooling. Some people do ask me about the social aspect (or lack thereof), but after a brief explanation of our outside activities they see it isn't a problem.

smglbrth wrote: »

Parental involvement is paramount, but that goes with everything, not just schooling.

That's what I and tonyb have mentioned in this thread previously. I meet so many people who view their children as a nuisance. They can't wait to ship them off to school and then out of the house to be on their own. These are from people I would consider average neighborhood types. My hope is that this is just a flippant remark. I am looking into foster care and the stories shared by the social workers are incredibly worse. What is wrong with families today? If people are bothered by children then why are they having them?

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

[
Not every immigrant is a deadbeat. Talk to some of them. Hispanic guy at my job's cafetteria works 3 jobs. He works harder than we ever did.

Absolutely.....there is always going to be exceptions, many come here for the right reasons. Unfortunately many come here for the wrong reasons too, and they seem to be out numbering the good.

To make the wheels of society and economy turn, you need more participating in it than taking from it. Yet another problem that will turn to other subjects not allowed here.

If you had to start a public school system from scratch, how would you go about it ? How different would it look from todays public school system ? Just asking is all, to get ideas flowing. We have many in the education system here, many not, be interesting to see what people would do if they could start from scratch.

smglbrth

"What's wrong with families today?"

Parents who refuse to grow up and take responsibility. It's nice to have a cute little baby to cuddle but they all grow up to be adults. Whether it's the male who still wants to relive the glory days of high school or still hang out with his buddies at the bar. Women? Heck, I don't know, I'd have to ask my wife.

Lack of a moral compass. Everything goes as long as you feel good about it, including 2+2=5, NOT!

Me, me, me, it's all about what I want. Gee, see any similarities with kids today?

We, as a society, tell teenagers that when they turn 18 they "magically" become adults. Ya, that has worked out well. Don't give them any type of responsibility and then, poof! Now you can have all responsibility! We, as parents, train our kids to be on their own from birth and don't even realize it. The word "no" sets up boundaries and discipline. This is a toilet, this is how you bathe, this is how you get dressed, this is how to use a fork, knife, spoon. Give them chores around the house (or farm like myself) because that trains them to work.

We told our kids early on that around 12-14 years old they were going to start to be treated like adults, that's what was expected. Take responsibility for you own actions, you can't blame it on others, you do have a mind to think for yourself, and, yes, you are using it. Not everything in life is fair, not everyone makes the team, etc..., etc..., etc...

I've said this thousands of times but it never sinks in with most people. You are NOT your children's BUDDIES, you ARE their PARENTS, act like it.

Oops, got a little off topic. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now...

tonyb

LMAO....I was looking for my soapbox, it appears you stole it.

Good points anyway.

steveinaz

smglbrth wrote: »

"What's wrong with families today?" ...

You nailed it.

aprazer402

maximillian wrote: »

aprazer402 wrote: »

The Greatest Generation, of my parents, the housewife, the WWII veteran, hard working middle class families are gone, replaced with a new wave of immigrants and families that have relied on government assistance for a few generations of their own. I don't have any answers. It's probably too late, the largest voting block is probably to the other side already. The 2016 elections should be telling.

I'm an immigrant. Moved here with my parents from Italy in '74. Both parents worked in a factory for about 5 years. After that my dad started his own business and my mom continued working in other factories. At no time whatsoever did we take government assistance. We worked. My parents put me through a State University. I got an engineering degree and have worked hard for where I am today. My wife came from a poor family from Maine; I didn't marry into any type of financial stability that allows her to stay at home.

Not every immigrant is a deadbeat. Talk to some of them. Hispanic guy at my job's cafetteria works 3 jobs. He works harder than we ever did.

Max: Sorry, I did not mean to offend immigrants, all four of my great-grandparents immigrated from Europe in the late 19th century. The sentence from my post that follows has an "and" in it, which was used to separate any connection between immigrants and public-aid. "families" was meant to encompass all of the population, not to single out.: "replaced with a new wave of immigrants and families that have relied on government assistance for a few generations of their own." I did not intend to de-rail this thread from the original topic, I was continuing along kevhed's preceding remarks. More than one Ph.D. in my family, all with parochial K-12 educations and public U.S. colleges. Did the parochial K-12 make a difference? I don't know. Others in family with post-graduate degrees all schooling was public. Others that barely finished high school are doing equally as well and are all super people. It starts at home.

tonyb

If I had to start from scratch.....talking grades 1-12, I might start with,

Each state getting x amount from the federal government which is adjusted for population. Each state must meet a min. requirement in education of the basics in Math, English, History. No strings attached, no agendas added in, no PC B.S.

Each state then distributes that money to the districts, again by population.

Each district decides how to appropriate that money, spend it where needed. Each district has a panel of parents who have to OK curriculums, reading materials, etc, brought forth by teachers or administrators. The same board of parents will also OK pay scales for each position with a range for each position.....and also fire whoever needs it too. Districts should be set up according to populations and not too lop sided so as one district gets tons of cash while another gets squat.

The Principles of each school will recommend raises for those who deserve it from classroom results and parent recommendations. Individual Principles know who the good or bad teachers are, they are closer to the battlefield that someone sitting on a state or federal board.

I would get rid of most administrators that eat up a lot of the budget. Kids would have to pass a test at each grade level to move on. Those tests will be determined by Principles/administration/teachers/parents. Each student gets 2 tries to pass, with a week or 2 in between for tutoring in case the first attempt goes south. After that, you fail and redo the whole year. Teachers and school authorities should have more sway in determining tests, as parents may feel a need to make them too easy.

No school should be held to Unions if they don't want it. That also means those that do certainly can, but it shouldn't be a forced issue.

Classes would also be restricted to 25, any more and the teacher is simply not going to be able to give attention to all. 25 is even pushing it, maybe that is best left to the Principles of each school as they know first hand each Teachers capabilities....or they should anyway.

Each district would be allowed to do fundraisers as they see fit, within reason of course. Unlike Kansas who raises school funds by selling p o r n and taxing that. Yeah, you heard that right.

Each district would be responsible for meeting or staying under budget. Each district can petition for more taxpayer funds by vote at the appropriate times.

That's a start anyway in my mind.

Gatecrasher

I do a lot of international travel for work and our public education system is probably the least thing people of other countries are "laughing" at.

tonyb

Gatecrasher wrote: »

I do a lot of international travel for work and our public education system is probably the least thing people of other countries are "laughing" at.

Your probably right on that....I'm guessing they saw PFB's Porsche threads.

Gatecrasher

tonyb wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

I do a lot of international travel for work and our public education system is probably the least thing people of other countries are "laughing" at.

Your probably right on that....I'm guessing they saw PFB's Porsche threads.

Or any of these ridiculous politically-motivated posts of F1nut telling us all how he thinks America totally sucks.

Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!!

He ought to move to freakin' Russia if he thinks the USA sucks so bad. I'm sure it's a lot better over there. He can share a room with Snowden.

lol!!

warren

You Americans....so funny!

With Love from Canada where 1+1=2
Jebadiha, believes in this he will come up there and school you! And, another thing The Gov. of Wis. will build a wall keeping you math majors out of America,

Gatecrasher

warren wrote: »

You Americans....so funny!

With Love from Canada where 1+1=2
Jebadiha, believes in this he will come up there and school you! And, another thing The Gov. of Wis. will build a wall keeping you math majors out of America,

Well I stand corrected, maybe the world is laughing at us!

lol

Hey how does Canada do it? Do you guys have standardized curriculums for math and science?

Gatecrasher

Alright, I'm kind of a math geek and had to look this up to see the logic in it all.

The original question was; "Tell how to make 10 when adding 8+5."

This is a 2nd grade math problem. Children are taught to use what are called "counters" to help them visualize mathematical concepts. Counters are physical things like different colored poker chips. Other items that can be used to represent specific integers by their shape or color can also be used.

To help young children to add and subtract, they are taught to look at integers in values of ten.

An example is that the number "1" represent a single unit. "5" represents five single units etc.

The number "10" represents one unit of ten and the number "50" represents five units of ten.

To help young children see how the decimal system really works instead of forcing them to memorize math functions by tables (remember when we had to memorize our multiplication tables?), they are showing them how the decimal system really works.

Now here is where the dishonesty comes into play by those who are opposed to common core (or any other standardized education where creationism and other non-science and revisionist history is not allowed). That's what this is really all about. They don't really object to standardized math. They object to not being allowed to substitute their faith as the curriculum so by using this math problem as "proof" like F1nut likes to refer to it as, they think they can attack the premise of standardized education as silly "Socialism" or some other BS.

Here's what the question from the teacher really was. They are teaching 2nd graders how to add integers using the decimal values of ten as the basis.

The real question asked was "Tell me how to make ten when adding 8+5 using counters."

Let's say red poker chips represent units of 10 and white poker chips represent units of 1. So you would show the number eleven as being one red poker chip on the left and a white one next to it on the right.

So now back to the teacher's question. They want the student to first make the value ten to make the rest of the problem easier to understand so how do they do that? They can either take 2 from the 5 (5-2=3) and add the 2 white poker chips to the 8 white poker chips to end up with ten (a red poker chip). Adding 2 to 8 will give them one red poker chip and they will then have three white ones left over. The 2nd grader then has the answer in a visual form that makes more sense to them.

The teacher wasn't asking the student to make "10" the final answer to the problem as some would like us to believe. The student was asked what they needed to do with the numbers to first arrive at ten which is represented by a red poker chip and then add the left over to it in white poker chips. Once again these are called "counters" and are visual aids to help children really understand math at an early age. Earlier than we did as kids.

There is another possible answer to the teacher's question. You can make 10 when adding 8+5 by subtracting 5 from the 8 and then adding the 5 to the other five. This still leaves three white poker chips left over for the final answer of 13.

The goal is for the student to make a value of ten first - not as the final answer as these politically-motivated (and highly dishonest partisans would lead us to believe).

So now I hope this makes sense to most of us on here. I know it does to me (and I'm pretty-good with math).

The student wrote, “You cannot make 10 with 8 + 5,” to which the teacher apparently replied in blue ink, “Yes you can. Take 2 from 5 and add it to 8 (8+2=10) Then add 3.”

F1nut

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Or any of these ridiculous politically-motivated posts of F1nut telling us all how he thinks America totally sucks.

Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!!

He ought to move to freakin' Russia if he thinks the USA sucks so bad. I'm sure it's a lot better over there. He can share a room with Snowden.

lol!!

Hmmmm....not only mistaken about audio, but also my motivation for starting this thread. You're not having a good day.

tonyb

Lets stay on track, I'd like to hear from others who have ideas how to start a public system from scratch. Not as easy as it sounds, and pleasing all the special interests is impossible, which is why you have to remove them from the equation.

My goals are simple, keep the money in local control with all involved in the education of the child given a seat at the table in the decision making processes.

I know I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating mainly because it pisses me off.

2 of my grandkids are in the 2nd largest, and one of the worst PS systems in the state, U46 for those in the know. Every year they are given a list of school supplies needed of which the wife and I take them shopping for. Part of the fun of it all is getting them the cool stuff, superhero backpacks and lunchboxes, pencils/notebooks with their favorite characters and such.

Only now, no characters at all, has to be generic, plain. Plus after spending all the coin on supplies, they don't even get it all. I was baffled at this concept. Apparently on the first day of school they take all the school supplies the kids bring, dump it all in a pile and distribute it evenly amongst the kids so those who have none, get theirs for free. Any left overs are then kept by the teacher for later in the year as needs arise.

WTF....if I'm paying for something, I want my kid to have it. At 15k a student, you can't afford to have some supplies on hand for those with none ? You'd think at that cost per student, they could afford supplies for everyone.

This small example circles back to the "personal responsibility" many have brought up when raising and educating a child. You can't completely legislate it, but you can teach it, which we fail miserably at.

....and personal responsibly itself falls into the culture we create. Everything runs hand in hand. For you history buffs, it might do you well to read up on the Roman empire. We are making the same mistakes all over again and that didn't turn out too well for the Romans.

Nightfall

What happens when every child's parents say eff it and stop buying school supplies?

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

The teacher's life becomes hell. S/he either buys it out of their own pocket or has to completely revamp their curriculum. Its an ugly system that my son was introduced to this year. I'm not a fan of that structure either.

One of my nieces is a teacher in a more affluent district, she still has to take money out of her pocket for classroom supplies. What does it take for someone to say Stop the circus, WTF is going on here ?

tonyb

On a side note to all this, some say we have the best education system in the world. Say that's why everyone wants to come here.

As compared to what...Brazil ? If that's true, why are companies dumping American educated people for foreigners if those foreigners are so under educated ?

We all know the answer, it's not education that's the priority, it's the costs to business. So in order to come out of college with 50-100k in debt over your head, you have to lower your expectations as to what jobs and pay is acceptable. Student loan debt is soon expected to hit one trillion dollars if we continue on the same path. You know we'll never see that money or a good chunk of it.

Then there will be bailouts, forgiveness, of which all taxpayers will bear that brunt. So you have everyone chipping in to pay for college tuitions and cheaper labor for businesses. Sounds like a sustainable plan.

It wouldn't hurt any to look around the globe at other systems and cherry pick ideas from the best of them.

steveinaz

F1nut wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Or any of these ridiculous politically-motivated posts of F1nut telling us all how he thinks America totally sucks.

Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!!

He ought to move to freakin' Russia if he thinks the USA sucks so bad. I'm sure it's a lot better over there. He can share a room with Snowden.

lol!!

Hmmmm....not only mistaken about audio, but also my motivation for starting this thread. You're not having a good day.

It appears he is the one taking political "swipes" but when challenged about a comment he made to me.....silence. These "self-important" types enjoy hearing themselves speak; nothing new.

steveinaz

"The student wrote, “You cannot make 10 with 8 + 5,” to which the teacher apparently replied in blue ink, “Yes you can. Take 2 from 5 and add it to 8 (8+2=10) Then add 3.”

This example is telling. Where do we hear this type of "logic" all the time.....? This is the kind of rediculous non-sense that does nothing but confuse kids. This "approach" to thinking should be called the "Reid/Pelosi paradigm of thought" where I am always right, because only I know the variable. No wonder we still have no budget.

This kind of crap teaches (indoctrinates) kids that even in the face of FACT, you can still be wrong because 5,000 other variables can be injected into the question that you're not aware of. It is the "anti-logic" of full grown adults that are paralyzed in thought because they can't see the trees, for the forest. It's the height of stupidity and over-thinking.

steveinaz

DSkip wrote: »

Steve, the idea is no different than addition on paper. You write the 1 above the tens place and put the 3 in the answer field. This method is an attempt to get students more on track for mental math, a skill that is lost on 95% of our students today. I can't even ask kids something as simple as 20-14 without them grabbing a calculator.

Oh I "get" the concept, but you have to walk before you can run. If you're reaching for a calculator for 20-14=x, you're certainly not ready for "brain olympics" that are involved in this re-invention of the wheel. The understanding of advanced math concepts will fall into place with maturity and experience, but the foundation needs to solid FIRST.

maximillian

http://www.eagleforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Common-Core.jpg

Mental math is a great skill but relies on memorization to be effective. Kids need to memorize basic math tables so they can be quick with mental math. Otherwise it is way more work for simpler problems.

steveinaz

maximillian wrote: »

http://www.eagleforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Common-Core.jpg

Mental math is a great skill but relies on memorization to be effective. Kids need to memorize basic math tables so they can be quick with mental math. Otherwise it is way more work for simpler problems.

Exactly. I don't mind the "conceptualizing" of math to gain another angle of understanding, but it shouldn't be the primary driver.

westmassguy

And these are our future Architects and Engineers being taught this crap.

BlueFox

maximillian wrote: »

http://www.eagleforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Common-Core.jpg

Mental math is a great skill but relies on memorization to be effective. Kids need to memorize basic math tables so they can be quick with mental math. Otherwise it is way more work for simpler problems.

I learnt years ago to not rely on my memory, at least at work. I make far fewer mistakes now while programming by using Google for syntax questions, and other language issues. Math is women's work.