The world is laughing at US

deronb1

I only know of Ohio and am somewhat familiar with Indiana. Indiania told CC to take a long walk off a short pier. Am keeping an eye on that.

Glad to hear you have options and a healthy perspective. I've invested a lot of time and money in my career and am gonna stick it out. Maybe not where i am now, but am confident ill find a place that works and it will be fun and exciting to go to work again.

deronb1

Sounds like a good district. High performing districts give their teachers more leeway. They have earned that and get less pressure from the state. Inner ciry schools have to re-invent the weel every year due to low performance under the watchful eye of Big Brother.

BlueFox

deronb1 wrote: »

I only know of Ohio and am somewhat familiar with Indiana. Indiania told CC to take a long walk off a short pier. Am keeping an eye on that.

Well, Indiana did have the common sense to stay off of Daylight Savings Time. Maybe they are like the proverbial broken clock, and occasionally right.

deronb1

BlueFox wrote: »

deronb1 wrote: »

I only know of Ohio and am somewhat familiar with Indiana. Indiania told CC to take a long walk off a short pier. Am keeping an eye on that.

Well, Indiana did have the common sense to stay off of Daylight Savings Time. Maybe they are like the proverbial broken clock, and occasionally right.

I actually did my student teaching in Indiana. Drove an hour each way and didnt miss a day. Really enjoyed it and learned more than in any class for sure. I do think that Indiana has caved to DST, in some parts anyway.

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

I don't really see where this thread is going at this point!

Let's step back. The Chinese have EXTREME standardization of education from the center down and they're kicking our AXXes in math and science! So that argument is out the window. There is no substance to the idea that a nation can't regulate curriculum at least in NON-POLITICAL subjects!

Second, there is a WEALTH of educational theory and experimentation in our own history! Most of which is either not known to the majority here or not addressed by those deciding matters. (Even those of us at the university level "experiment" with the how and why of teaching in the classroom).

Third, at least in the hard sciences and math, it is pretty EASY to agree what standards should be, we only get our political panties in a bunch when things like American History, Gov't, Literature, etc. are passed through a "collective" Federal sieve.

Fourth, the U.S. still has the BEST colleges and universities in the WORLD regardless of how much anti-intellectual sentiment and outrage is vented at them. Most of that venting is vacuous. And a lot of the politicians doing the venting, themselves, have Ivy League degrees? Really? So you use the system to catapult you into a career in politics and then bad mouth it, when it's served YOUR purpose? Well, at least you know what hypocrisy means! And you DO NOT hide that degree(s)?

Fifth, of course family, parents, home life, economic opportunity and STABILITY are all factors in a society that has socio-economic STRATIFICATION! Individual, exceptional, examples do not ERASE the overall statistics, they are the exception not the rule.

Sixth, as mentioned above. If you live in an affluent area your schools are probably pretty good! If you don't, good LUCK!

Home schooling! How many parents have the requisite skills to cover a general curriculum? Not many! But many "think" they do? (I have one of the best educations money can buy and I'd be hard pressed to teach every subject to my children). And as Tony says, WHO HAS THE TIME! We DO have DAY jobs!

Personally, I pity our teachers. So many hurdles and hardships, so little support and understanding for them. So much hate and prejudice against their benefits, unions, etc. Really? The majority of these individuals are horribly undervalued and underpaid and yet we expect them to perform as well or better than our CEOs, Hedge fund boys and girls, Entrepreneurs...who make their pay seem like chump change, silly dollars!

This nation does NOT know who to value! We value $$$$ but have no respect for those who serve and educate the people! And so a nation declines because its values are "superficial"! Let's admit it! We don't value the people who "matter" but give ourselves up to various paper (green paper, that is) gods and idols.

Good post pal. I'll just comment on #6 for now.

How many actually live in an affluent area though ? Like I said before....which part of the demographic is growing, the poor or the affluent ? Answer is obvious, so if that's the case, can quality education as a whole be expected to improve or decline ?

People who come across our southern border, are they poor or affluent ? If you dilute the population with more poor, knock some of those middle class affluent down into the poor, then education on a national scale will also come down.

This circles back to my assertion that the goal is to make us look like the rest of the world, not raise us up.

Also, I have great respect for teachers, a thankless job with plenty of B.S. to put up with. I believe they should be paid accordingly though within a range much like the private sector. That way the bad teachers will make less while the good excel both professionally and financially.

If you think about it, many professors in colleges across the land have extreme leeway in how they teach their class. That can be a double edged sword but it does allow them to use their imagination and individual skills in order to obtain the desired results. At the same time, there is no babysitting, you do the work or you don't, you fail or you pass. The student bears a lot of that responsibility.

In the lessor learning institutions, teachers and parents bear that responsibility with most parents not really wanting it. Some feel like they drop their kid off at 8, pick them up at 3, and it's the schools sole responsibility to educate. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's further compounded by the schools being mandated to be the parent. They can only eat certain things that the school must provide. Must adhere to any agenda being pushed and even told to tell their parents they are wrong. Even though in some cases that holds an element of truth, it is not the schools job to be the parent.

School has become much more than a school, they've taken on the role of educator, parent, social worker, and political advisor. This creates tensions between parents and schools with teachers being caught between a rock and a hard place who are then asked to provide results.

I don't think certain elements or problems in the education process can ever be fixed to satisfy everyone, nothing ever does. After all, the kids are all born somewhat equal, it's the parents who screw them up and we have no standards for being a good parent.

But the bean counters who run policy look at it as a whole and make policy as a whole. The whole is only as good as the sum total of parts in it....or quality there of.

tonyb

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that education and needs will vary both geographically and demographically. You need more resources in poorer districts than the more affluent ones. Attracting quality teachers in poorer districts is more of a challenge than the affluent districts.

How does a one size fit all education process fit into that ? Beyond me...but I still think the education process should be controlled locally to deal with the best possible way to achieve results. You have to keep your eye on the ball in all this, and that's the best possible chance at success for the students.

cnh

DSkip wrote: »

The student almost bears no responsibility if they choose not to. It is all placed on the teachers backs if there is no support at home. The home life is so integral to your performance at school. As far as professors go, most just stand up there and preach the information without actually checking for understanding. The quizzes and tests are just benchmarks for who passes or fails. If an entire class struggles, the professor thinks he got a bad group that semester. I've known many professors like that and its a big issue that is only going to become more of an issue as education continues to evolve. Remember, 99% of professors never received any training on how to actually teach. They are qualified because THEY know the material, not because they know how to convey it.

A lot of truth here. In the late 80s early 90s most elite colleges and some elite universities began to use Student Evaluations as one of the major components in a tenure decision in addition to research and publications, and service to the institution (a far third). A lot of bright and talented young professors, because they HAD NOT been given the opportunity to study and practice teaching techniques, were indeed weak in the classroom, and the students turned on them. A good thing and a bad thing. We lost some great people, and some we should've lost. The rest of us learned how to be more "entertaining" (and, hopefully, a little more "effective"?). The very BEST teachers were NOT the best SCHOLARS, in fact, the opposite was often true. The most POPULAR teacher was often the most engaging and charismatic types-and usually, resembled the population he/she was teaching (reflected the students back to themselves). There were/are exceptions.

The point though was to be "better" in the classroom, not necessarily to WIN the BEST TEACHER award, which almost always went to the best Stand Up Act a faculty member could perform! lol I've seen the BEST and I've often been disappointed by how shallow and devoid of CONTENT such performances have been. The BEST teacher at our college who I know, is now at Emory U. Students liked him, he was great in the classroom and NEVER won the BEST TEACHER award?

So at the college and university level there is a tension between being evaluated and delivering sufficient information, knowledge and encouraging debate and critical thinking. TEACHING IS IMPORTANT. But it must not become "bread and circuses"! It's not REALITY TV! Or FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM, TWITTER, etc.

There is more awareness concerning TEACHING at our level than ever before. But, it is also TRUE that some of the BEST Profs I've ever had WERE NOT THE BEST TEACHERS from an average student's point of view. It sometimes takes tolerance, acceptance and a taste for the eccentric to realize just what a great intellect is when one encounters him or her in the classroom.

In England, until recently, there has been a TWO TRACK system. Research and Teaching. And Profs take one or the other. Realizing that great researchers/scholars are NOT always the BEST in the classroom, and many great teachers are often not burning up the pages of journals and university presses.

There are of course EXCEPTIONS to the rule. And those are rare but wonderful!

Sorry for the long-winded digression but it serves to drive home Skip's point above!

tonyb

Good points all, can't argue most of it.

We can never eliminate all the bad in anything, we can only hope to improve on what we have power to do so. Another poster said it was the parents ultimate responsibility for the education of their kid, agreed, so lets give the parents some choices is all I'm saying. Choices that don't require a second mortgage. If we can do that, that's a start.

The freedoms we enjoy here allow us opportunity if we so seek it, or living your life as the village idiot. Question is, what to do with all the village idiots as adults ? lol

Jhayman

While this is true, if you live in Newfoundland 1+1+1= tree....lol

rednedtugent wrote: »

I like Canada. They gave us RUSH and bare fisted fighting!!

nbrowser wrote: »

You Americans....so funny!

With Love from Canada where 1+1=2

Jhayman

Move to Canada, free healthcare and where you can make 80-100K for driving a bus or Subway, heehaw and reap the benefits of a Union Enviroment..
Not too shabby from where i sit.
Our education is messed up as well, I struggle to help my do his grade 11 math, it's changed so much since I was in school..
Good thing his aunt( retired teacher) comes over twice a week to Tudor him, I make sure she gets a nice Christmas present every year..

maximillian

cnh wrote: »

Home schooling! How many parents have the requisite skills to cover a general curriculum? Not many! But many "think" they do? (I have one of the best educations money can buy and I'd be hard pressed to teach every subject to my children). And as Tony says, WHO HAS THE TIME! We DO have DAY jobs!

Are you saying you failed high school? The classes you learned in high school are the ones you would be teaching. You can't re-learn these things?

I think I have made it clear... you don't need two parents working day jobs if you prioritize your life. But if you want a McMansion, vacations to the Bahamas every year, and BMW's in your life then you are correct, who has the time or money to teach those pesky kids.

I am not some special case either. I know a couple dozen families who home school for different reasons and using different approaches. All of them are middle class and all but one have one parent stay at home. And the link to MassHope I provided earlier is a yearly convention for homeschoolers; it gets thousands of attendees each year.

At the MassHope convention there are people selling science kits, microscopes, electronic kits, chemistry kits, biology kits (fetal pig dissection - even available on Amazon) , and much more. There's also a huge used market for these things.

There's also local support groups for help and outings groups.

So please don't dismiss something with "can't afford the time or money" until you have looked into it. And I have also done the private school route. I have been there, done that so my comments are informed. Although I am biased, I am not trying to push this as an agenda. I am merely providing an alternate viewpoint. I agree, it's not for anyone. Someone already mentioned, you need parents who are disciplined and involved. That is the most important thing. Money and time can be managed.

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

[I think I have made it clear... you don't need two parents working day jobs if you prioritize your life. But if you want a McMansion, vacations to the Bahamas every year, and BMW's in your life then you are correct, who has the time or money to teach those pesky kids.
.

Lots of truth to that too, but isn't that the culture we push ? Your somehow a loser if you don't have those things ?

Your an exception to the rule and I commend you for it. Not many can home school and be successful at it. Disciplined and involved....2 things most are not these days.

I know many highly intelligent successful adults.....some with little schooling, some with Ivy League education. More than a good amount from both camps are dumber than a box of rocks when taken outside their professions. They have little interest in anything that doesn't involve making money.

We each have different measuring sticks to what constitutes success....and there is nothing wrong with that either.

cnh

maximillian wrote: »

cnh wrote: »

Home schooling! How many parents have the requisite skills to cover a general curriculum? Not many! But many "think" they do? (I have one of the best educations money can buy and I'd be hard pressed to teach every subject to my children). And as Tony says, WHO HAS THE TIME! We DO have DAY jobs!

Are you saying you failed high school? The classes you learned in high school are the ones you would be teaching. You can't re-learn these things?

I think I have made it clear... you don't need two parents working day jobs if you prioritize your life. But if you want a McMansion, vacations to the Bahamas every year, and BMW's in your life then you are correct, who has the time or money to teach those pesky kids.

I am not some special case either. I know a couple dozen families who home school for different reasons and using different approaches. All of them are middle class and all but one have one parent stay at home. And the link to MassHope I provided earlier is a yearly convention for homeschoolers; it gets thousands of attendees each year.

At the MassHope convention there are people selling science kits, microscopes, electronic kits, chemistry kits, biology kits (fetal pig dissection - even available on Amazon) , and much more. There's also a huge used market for these things.

There's also local support groups for help and outings groups.

So please don't dismiss something with "can't afford the time or money" until you have looked into it. And I have also done the private school route. I have been there, done that so my comments are informed. Although I am biased, I am not trying to push this as an agenda. I am merely providing an alternate viewpoint. I agree, it's not for anyone. Someone already mentioned, you need parents who are disciplined and involved. That is the most important thing. Money and time can be managed.

I am NOT saying you can't home school, but as a college professor I KNOW experts in the chemistry, physics, biology and mathematics fields. And I KNOW for a fact that the students we teach to become H.S. instructors in those areas can teach introductory courses at the college level. They have an entire college Major in that field. And can do the AP courses in H.S. It's not a question of merely relearning what you did in H.S. Don't be so thin-skinned. And do you really think that both parents don't need to work in this day and age and in this economy. Most households need TWO incomes just to pay the rent, buy clothes, cover insurance, feed their families and save for their childrens' college education. I'm flipping almost $20K a year for my daughter even though the other half is being covered by my college and that still entails a lot of economic tightening. My Impala is rusting out and can no longer pass inspection, so we're using one car. An eight year old Prius. I live in a house I own which is worth less than 135,000 on the market and is 125 years old. I don't remember the LAST vacation I took! So let's get real on the economic front!

I am speaking from over three decades of experience teaching and also having put two kids through H.S. and now college. BTW, I graduated second in a class of 800 students so when "I" say you can't do it well, that might carry some weight because I was good at everything (Math, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, History, English, Spanish and whatever else was in the curriculum back then with a 4.0 average)! I came from a family that could not afford to send me to college, but that was OK because I had a full scholarship to one of the best colleges in the U.S. And then went on to a top ten Graduate School.

I've been surrounded by the best and the brightest most of my life so I know what people are capable of. And I have friends who have home schooled their kids. In one case, the boy, who was quite bright and wanted to go on in engineering, had to take some remedial work in higher math courses. Have you seen an AP textbook in Calculus recently? lol To his credit, he made up the work in a year, got into a good college and now has a great job! So what was important there, was not necessarily the breadth of the education he received but the support and interest of his parents. And that's as important as the content. But to say that the average parent can do as well as a teacher with a B.A. in the field from a top university or college is to have a "disdain" for our public school teachers and their education. No?

People can do what they want to. But this is hardly an easy thing to do. Especially in math and the hard sciences. Heck, when I took college chemistry, it was already more physics than not, which is NOT what I was exposed to in H.S. Time marches on!

On the positive side, I DID coach both my son and daughter on their SATs. My son on the Verbal, my daughter on the Math. Both did very very very well! And "I" hated having to review that Math even though I used to be quite good in the field. When you don't use something for a couple of decades, you literally have to relearn it, and not only that, you have to update it. I spent an afternoon talking with the head Math teacher at my daughter's H.S. who assured me that Math had made great leaps and bounds at the AP and Honors levels since my "time" and I had to make those same leaps in my 50s in order to help my daughter, lol Do you know how "flexible" your brain is at this age? How easy it is to learn NEW material not in your field, probably not.

So, home schooling. Yes, in terms of parental involvement and concern. OK at the lower levels. Not great if you're trying to get your child into a TOP University or college, that depends on how capable "you" are, and most are not that capable. Time and money? Yes, a problem. Two income families are the rule and have been so since the De-industrialization of the U.S. economy! The majority on this site are in that boat. The economic recovery of the middle-class never happened, and probably won't in our lifetime, if ever.

If you can "afford" to have a parent free, that's great! But most can't and it's not because they're living the Vida Loca!

Gatecrasher

I come from a family of teachers. Both of my Grandparents on my Mother's side were school teachers. My mother who is retired now, was a public school teacher with her Masters Degree in Education for 37 years. My sister is a teacher at the University of Minnesota with a PhD.

What do all of these highly-educated teaching professionals have in common (other than me as a relative)?

None of them would ever even consider attempting to home-school their children and they are professional educators.

It deprives a student of the quality of education that only comes from having more than one teacher and simply regurgitating a textbook. It also denies children necessary social skills that only come from interaction with their peers from all walks of life.

The bottom line is that most people who decide to home-school their kids do it for either religious reason or fringe political reasons. Neither are very good reason IMO unless you are Amish or some other religious fundamentalist whos children will probably never be required to assimilate with mainstream society.

We need to support the public school system and the teachers who seem to take a lot of abuse from misguided political zealots. Allowing parents to desert them and receive tax credits in the form of vouchers was the worst thing we could have ever done as all it does is strip funding away from the public school system. If parents want to abandon their school system they should have to pay for private schools 100% out of pocket and then still be required to pay their school taxes like good Americans. The less we support public education, the wider the gap will become between American students and the rest of the world.

maximillian

cnh wrote: »

And do you really think that both parents don't need to work in this day and age and in this economy.

The way most people manage their home finances, you are correct, no they can't. But I know many people that can because they were cautious with how they spend their money.

My wife and I were married 20 years ago and I was making $25k per year. She did work here and there, but 15 years ago we had our first child and she has been a stay at home mom ever since. My salary back then was $40K. We didn't live in a shack either. Even now I am only middle class. As I said, I know many people in the same condition as I. We live "real" lives even in this economic front.

Not sure what more I can say than I already said. It's doable even in this "day and age" if you plan properly. But if you spend every dollar you earn then, no, you can't.

cnh wrote: »

I am speaking from over three decades of experience teaching and also having put two kids through H.S. and now college. BTW, I graduated second in a class of 800 students so when "I" say you can't do it well, that might carry some weight

Quick look at the web I found that the U.S. Department of Education found that 1.7 million kids were homeschoold in 2012. That represents 3.4% of all students K-12. Thankfully not a large percentage, since these are being taught by a bunch of idiotic parents that didn't have the level of subject matter mastery you would require. Thankfully somehow the kids are doing well:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/

cnh wrote: »

But to say that the average parent can do as well as a teacher with a B.A. in the field from a top university or college is to have a "disdain" for our public school teachers and their education. No?

This whole thread is about having a disdain for public school system. I won't say the teachers since I think they often have their hands tied on what and how they can teach.

cnh wrote: »

People can do what they want to. But this is hardly an easy thing to do. Especially in math and the hard sciences. Heck, when I took college chemistry, it was already more physics than not, which is NOT what I was exposed to in H.S. Time marches on!

Already did a first round of Physics. Not too much math based Physics since my oldest is only in 6th grade. He had a great interest in since and wanted to study Physics. So we decided to deviate from the regular curriculum's science lesson and was able to introduce him to Physics. Imagine that, parents and the student picking what's best for the student without having to fight the school system.

My son loves science and math and is doing great. Even got him a little into programming. Two years ago I bought him a Lego Mindstorm set and he was hooked. But you are more correct, homeschools are typically more stupid in math and hard sciences.

cnh wrote: »

On the positive side, I DID coach both my son and daughter on their SATs. My son on the Verbal, my daughter on the Math. Both did very very very well! And "I" hated having to review that Math even though I used to be quite good in the field.

So if you hate having to relearn things then you are correct, you wouldn't make a good homeschooler.

cnh wrote: »

So, home schooling. Yes, in terms of parental involvement and concern. OK at the lower levels. Not great if you're trying to get your child into a TOP University or college, that depends on how capable "you" are, and most are not that capable.

You are welcome to your opinion.

http://www.usnews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2012/06/01/home-schooled-teens-ripe-for-college

cnh wrote: »

If you can "afford" to have a parent free, that's great! But most can't and it's not because they're living the Vida Loca!

I was being kind with my McMansion comparison. Most people can't afford it because they didn't plan. Got a raise at work? What did you do with the increase? When you change jobs (within your first 15 years of your career, you can negotiate for double digit raises easily. Again, what did you do with the increase?

EVEN IF you are completely against homeschooling. Private school can be bought for $6-8k per year per kid. Not all private schools, but this level is out there and they are good schools. Again, what do you do with a salary increase? What is most important to you?

I think I have said all I have to say. You are welcome to respond, but not sure there's more from my side to say.

tonyb

Gatecrasher wrote: »

I come from a family of teachers. Both of my Grandparents on my Mother's side were school teachers. My mother who is retired now, was a public school teacher with her Masters Degree in Education for 37 years. My sister is a teacher at the University of Minnesota with a PhD.

What do all of these highly-educated teaching professionals have in common (other than me as a relative)?

None of them would ever even consider attempting to home-school their children and they are professional educators.

It deprives a student of the quality of education that only comes from having more than one teacher and simply regurgitating a textbook. It also denies children necessary social skills that only come from interaction with their peers from all walks of life.

The bottom line is that most people who decide to home-school their kids do it for either religious reason or fringe political reasons. Neither are very good reason IMO unless you are Amish or some other religious fundamentalist whos children will probably never be required to assimilate with mainstream society.

We need to support the public school system and the teachers who seem to take a lot of abuse from misguided political zealots. Allowing parents to desert them and receive tax credits in the form of vouchers was the worst thing we could have ever done as all it does is strip funding away from the public school system. If parents want to abandon their school system they should have to pay for private schools 100% out of pocket and then still be required to pay their school taxes like good Americans. The less we support public education, the wider the gap will become between American students and the rest of the world.

Point taken, but when the public school system no longer listens to the parents...or teachers, your answer is to still support them ? Would you do that in any other areas of your life ?

Having choice and competition is the only way to drive innovation, listen and react accordingly while keeping costs in check.

Home schooling and private schools are additional choices not meant to work for everyone. They will for some though, so we should keep and support those options as well.

That's a small percentage of the population though. Public schools take on the majority of the population and probably because most think it's free. Free is never free, in anything. A public education now varies somewhere between 12k and 18k per student depending where you live, that's more than some private schools.

We should also be keeping education local, the powers that control it anyway. Federal money should be given to the states with out the strings attached and let each state appropriate that money as they see fit towards education. That way, people who live and work in your community have more sway than some bureaucrat thousands of miles away.

If we just apply the same problem solving skills we use in our daily life to education, I think we can make it better for all. However you first have to remove the agenda driven stuff and self interest groups which will never happen thus why education never changes and never will no matter what system is used.

maximillian

Gatecrasher wrote: »

It deprives a student of the quality of education that only comes from having more than one teacher and simply regurgitating a textbook. It also denies children necessary social skills that only come from interaction with their peers from all walks of life.

Please don't present your opinions as facts.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/

http://www.nheri.org/research/research-facts-on-homeschooling.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-sosa/homeschooling-setting-the_b_6638900.html

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/homeschooling/socialization-tackling-homeschoolings-s-word/

https://www.nmu.edu/education/sites/DrupalEducation/files/UserFiles/Moreau_Kathi_MP.pdf


The quality of homeschool education will depend on the involvement of the parent. Seems obvious, but homeschooling can be successful or not depending on the parent. When done right, students statistically do better than public education kids. That is well documented. As I mentioned earlier, I think the main reason for this (IMO mind you) is simply because the parents are involved in a child's education. Naturally, their achievement will be higher if parents convey the importance of the education to their child, and are involved to help them achieve. This can be achieved even in a public education system. This is what I said earlier, regardless of the means of schooling parents need to be involved in their child's education. It is their responsibility to make sure their kids are prepared to achieve in life.

Gatecrasher wrote: »

We need to support the public school system and the teachers who seem to take a lot of abuse from misguided political zealots.

Feel free to send your kids to the same system that is being criticized in this thread. I will gladly keep homeschooling my kids, tailoring their education to their interest and strengths, teaching them what I think is important instead of teaching them idiotic common-core rules.

My approach in all my responses was to highlight to parents that there are alternatives if they feel bottled in by public education, and home schooling wasn't my only option. It's sad to think there are people who would deny the choice parents have to seek out alternatives. BTW, I pay all my school tax. I get no rebates or vouchers. I do this as part of being a citizen. But not using a system that I don't agree with while still being required to financially support it is socialism.

tonyb

Maybe CNH can jump in since he's spent some time in China. If I'm not mistaken, they make the kids pick a path early on and then educate to that path. A more tailored approach.

I see a lot of kids here entering colleges without any idea of what they want to do. Not always the case obviously but far too many.

Homeschooling in a way provides a more tailored education because of that one on one and the parents insight to the childs interests and strengths. That too can only go so far in the early years as more advanced education is obviously needed the older they get and is beyond most parents abilities. Still, it's a valid option for those who see fit.

6-8 g's or more for private schools is a tough nut to swallow especially when you have to pay for public schools too. So that's not a valid option for the majority out there. If you let them take that money they pay in taxes to use for private schools, that might help some, but still won't solve the overall problem. Public schools are burdened with useless administrators at high salary and pension benefits.....among other things.

Though once you remove some money from the public system, that would force them to make changes. Unfortunately those changes come at the cost to the student, not the waste. Which begs to question where public schools interest lay, in the student or the system surrounding them.

cnh

DSkip wrote: »

max, in your situation, it is not the parent involvement that is creating success for your children. It is the one-on-one attention and lack of distractions (if done right). This is something that cannot be overcome in the public classroom.

The point about having someone specialized in each field is a valid point. While it may not hinder the student much, if someone is educated well beyond the high school level in a subject, they tend to understand much more intricately how the material all meshes together. They can point out some of these bigger concepts that might be missed in any textbook. I am a math major. I can teach math, and that's all I feel I am qualified to teach in any manner. Lets face it - those basic courses needed for a degree are nothing more than a hot-rodded high school curriculum. I feel I'd need to at least have 4-5 upper level courses just to be qualified. Only then would I truly understand what is needed at the next level. This is what it means to be 'highly qualified', as we call these teachers in Texas.

Don't take this as me saying you and your wife are not doing a great job. If you are, kudos to you. There are always exceptions. My wife and I have talked about homeschooling our two kids, but I'm not sure if that will ever become a reality. There is a lot to think about before jumping in those waters, and the income is just part of the equation for us.

This is pretty much what I was saying above. Get some "reading comprehensions on"! Read the ENTIRE text don't just "pick and choose"! And DO NOT BE SO DEFENSIVE. If you really believe that you are giving your boy the BEST education he can get. Then stop trying to defend it and get on with it.

There is a reason we TEACH the TEACHERS! The one SKIP alludes to above. I am talking about HIGH LEVEL H.S. Advanced Placement Physics, Math and Calculus, not Sixth Grade level learning that "anyone" can teach! Are you serious? How about a discourse on the differences between Plato and Aristotle. A discussion of the Politics of Hobbes and Rousseau. A point counterpoint Adam Smith vs. Karl Marx? An analysis of the racial issues in Ralph Elllison's Invisible Man, the poetry of Maya Angelou, a historical lecture on Shakespeare's King Lear, some lessons on how to play a Bach Fugue, the use of color and light in a Rembrandt painting, a reading of Einstein's equations for General and Special Relativity, a general discussion of s, p, d, t orbitals in chemistry, how to balance chemical equation/reactions, a theoretical explanation of Differentials and Integrals in Calculus, an in depth discussion of ATP-ADP cycle in biology, the existentialism of Kierkegaard, the economics of Neo-liberalism, statistical analysis and interpretation in the social sciences with regard to Factor Analysis and Multiple Regressions, a review of the major Chinese Dynasties from the Han to the Qing, Soseki, Mishima and Oe (generations of Japanese authors), an in depth analysis of the Triangle slave trade in the Atlantic, FOREIGN LANGUAGE instruction in Spanish, German, Chinese, Greek, etc., a discussion of transculturalism involved in the movement from Africa to the New World, comparative mythology (Norse, Greek, Chinese, Hindu). The mechanics of writing, research papers and documentation and citation formats for college, the magical realism of Latin American authors, Auteur theory as it applies to Bergman, Fellini, Bertolucci, Bunuel, Kurosawa and Tarkovsky, the influence of Plotinus and Neo-Platonism on Christian Theology and doctrine, Chaos Theory and Fractal geometry, and, and, and...a LOT MORE.

One LAST TIME. I can discuss/explain EVERYTHING and more above and yet I DO NOT feel qualified to teach everything to an advanced H.S. student whose trajectory should be the IVY league! And that is all I am saying. The BEST, the BRIGHTEST, the FUTURE! That's what education should be moving toward. And in that area WHO is qualified? Where is this John Milton (one of the last western figures to command the widest range of information in his time)?

NO ONE is telling you that you CANNOT home school! You don't want to pay taxes? It's SOCIALISM! That does NOT constitute an argument. I don't KNOW of any Gov't anywhere that does NOT require TAXATION in order to redistribute some services to those in need. I am so tired of socialism being maligned when ALL gov't anywhere in any economic system is a system of social redistribution. Get over it! I do not have any children still in the public school system, that is OVER. BUT I HAVE NO PROBLEM CONTINUING TO PAY TAXES FOR THAT SYSTEM and to SUPPORT IT, because I am NOT living ALONE in my own state! I do NOT RESENT giving a significant portion of my INCOME for social purposes, to help others. I am also NOT trying to shield my children from the real world of diverse peoples, opinions and ideas because that is the real world outside. The world is a BIG PLACE, let them get OUT there and experience it. I've lived on three continents myself, and even that is NOT enough! I took my daughter to China and enrolled her in an International School there for a year, a fantastic learning experience! Did I worry about what she was being taught? Of course I took a look, but hey I am her father. If I have NOT done my job, I'd be worried. But, I have done my job as a parent and I have an exceptionally open, intelligent, curious and compassionate child who will do much good in the world "outside"!

Gatecrasher

maximillian wrote: »

Feel free to send your kids to the same system that is being criticized in this thread. I will gladly keep homeschooling my kids, tailoring their education to their interest and strengths, teaching them what I think is important instead of teaching them idiotic common-core rules.

My approach in all my responses was to highlight to parents that there are alternatives if they feel bottled in by public education, and home schooling wasn't my only option. It's sad to think there are people who would deny the choice parents have to seek out alternatives. BTW, I pay all my school tax. I get no rebates or vouchers. I do this as part of being a citizen. But not using a system that I don't agree with while still being required to financially support it is socialism.

Who has been denying you anything? You are free to do what you want with your little angels but still should have to pay your school taxes to the public school system you are deserting and support the common good regardless of what perceived gripes you have with the government and everyone else. You can post all the articles you want as "proof" if that helps, but I was only stating what the vast majority of education professionals think about the subject of home-schooling. Not too many recommend it (none that I have ever spoken to do) and most do not have a political/religious agenda as it appears you and most others who promote home-schooling do.

BTW my sister was named "Educator of the Year" a few years ago (one of only two in her field) and was given the award by President Bush. As you can imagine, my mother who is also a career teaching professional was "giddy' with pride. They are not exactly what I would call "Socialists" but they do have a passion for teaching.

sucks2beme

It used to be having a general degree was ok. It proved
to employers that you had a good learning skillset and
were competent. Now having anything less than a masters degree
or a very specific skill isn't useful. What happened?
College degrees are too common. I see employers
demanding college degrees for jobs that used to be
filled with high school grads.
The big US companies are taking all work offshore.
Having a great skillset now takes a backseat to how
cheap can you work. Project management, middle management,
engineering and technical jobs are going 3rd world now.
It used to be you could get an entry level job out of college
and work your way up to a better job as your skills improved.
Now you fall into what ever you can find to pay the bills.
They aren't laughing at our schools. They are laughing at our
business model.

Nightfall

I have a BA in network engineering, military training for computers, worked for IBM and Hewlett Packard. Now I cook in a kitchen.

Every job I have had in computers has been sent overseas with myself and hundreds getting laid off in the process.

At least I have a job and the bills are getting paid.

tonyb

Gatecrasher, I might agree more if school was indeed just school anymore, but it isn't.

As side note, and more to the point of the last 2 posters. I applied for a Kennel job awhile back. You know, dog kennel....part-time to keep busy. You know these morons wanted college background for a minimum wage part time position ? I wanted to ask what college classes would prepare me for picking up dog crap and cleaning kennels....I just left in amazement.

Nightfall,

Lots of people are in the same boat as you. Thing is, there is a huge disconnect between whats being sold and told to whats actually happening out there in the real world. Many companies I know are forcing out the higher paid employees for straight out of college kids and foreign workers.

One such company is a huge tech company, billions worth, government contracts, can't name it though because I have some insider info that would put some at risk. Anyway, their HR dept. was told by the big wigs to throw out all outstanding applications from experienced applicants and only hire straight out of college. Using labor laws, in order to reduce salaries of the experienced employees, they have to re-classify the position. They do that in part by hiring many lower paid people in a certain position. Thus the experienced ones are forced to take pay cuts or move on.

The work visa program is another tool to get rid of higher paid American employees for cheaper foreign ones. So while they all talk a good game, what they actually are doing or permitting goes against the gibberish they speak.

Unless you go to college for a very specific occupation that requires it, why go then ? We don't have the jobs that would determine spending 100k that make it worth it. So I ask again, if Common Core is to get kids more readily available for college, that most can't afford or spend a life time of savings on, for jobs that aren't there, what the heck are we doing ?

If you were told you had to drive a Ford Pinto, had to pay 50k for it, and other modes of transportation were also expensive, wouldn't you be scratching your head asking WTF is going on here ?

maximillian

DSkip wrote: »

The point about having someone specialized in each field is a valid point. While it may not hinder the student much, if someone is educated well beyond the high school level in a subject, they tend to understand much more intricately how the material all meshes together. They can point out some of these bigger concepts that might be missed in any textbook. I am a math major. I can teach math, and that's all I feel I am qualified to teach in any manner. Lets face it - those basic courses needed for a degree are nothing more than a hot-rodded high school curriculum. I feel I'd need to at least have 4-5 upper level courses just to be qualified. Only then would I truly understand what is needed at the next level. This is what it means to be 'highly qualified', as we call these teachers in Texas.

Again, opinions and more opinions. I have backed facts up but apparently no one cares to read up on them. Did anyone read any of the articles I posted? One article says Homeschoolers do better typically on SAT's and another says that the college graduation rate for homeschooling is statistically higher than those who are not.

Again, I don't believe that this is due to some special talent of home school educators, but rather the importance of education in a home-schooled home. But saying the opposite (lack of specialized training) leads to less educated, specialized, well rounded students is simply not supported by data.

More fun reading:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/successful-home-school-alum_n_3806317.html

You can get the in-depth teaching if you wish. My son in 6th grade has already done research papers on Newton and Einstein. He LOVES science and math and really eats it up. That is why we were able to start him learning Physics in 6th grade. He WILL be able to learn Calculus based Physics at home.

BTW, anyone use last night's eclipse to educate? We stayed up to watch it. Besides the cool factor I could explain about planetary motion, light refraction, and light scattering (why the moon is red during an eclipse). I asked my son why the moon is illuminated at all when it's in the shadow of the earth. Why isn't it completely black? His immediate answer is due to gravitational lensing. Although incorrect, it was an interesting answer because he knows what this phenomena is. So I was able to explain that while the earth does bend the light due to gravity, it's atmospheric refraction that illuminates it. Any of the educators out there do this with their kids? If not, why not?

If I sound defensive it's because of the dismissiveness of homeschooling as a form of education. I have provided data to show that the typical myths about homeschooling are false. Yet, there is still a stigma being perpetuated about it. There's also passive arguments that homeschoolers are religious zealots. Although religion is often a reason for homeschooling, there's people who do it to control the quality of education. There's plenty of non-religious curriculum out there.

I have put out a second alternative (private schooling) which was also dismissed in favor of public education. Yet the educators or people related to educators are staunch defenders of public education as the only viable means of education. Who would have thought! My initial viewpoint was that if public education is messed up (due to common core stupidity), then find an alternate approach. I provided a couple different approaches. If you don't like them, then feel free to try to vote for change. See how well that works.

PSOVLSK

Homeschoolers who do a great job have to fight the stigma of those who don't. Most home-schooled kids are probably well educated and well rounded. Those who pull their kids from school and say, "I'll just teach them myself." only to re-enroll them in public school after two months definitely give it a bad rap.

Same can be said for public education. All you're going to read are the negative stories, but their are tons of great things happening in public education. Does it have it's issues? Of course, but overall it does a good job, especially considering all of the obstacles that must be overcome.

Students today are pushed harder and expected to know more than in years past. If you are in Kindergarten and can't already read, or at least be able to identify words, you are behind. Algebra and geometry are being taught in middle school. I don't know about most of you, but Algebra was my Sophomore year.

cnh

maximillian wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

The point about having someone specialized in each field is a valid point. While it may not hinder the student much, if someone is educated well beyond the high school level in a subject, they tend to understand much more intricately how the material all meshes together. They can point out some of these bigger concepts that might be missed in any textbook. I am a math major. I can teach math, and that's all I feel I am qualified to teach in any manner. Lets face it - those basic courses needed for a degree are nothing more than a hot-rodded high school curriculum. I feel I'd need to at least have 4-5 upper level courses just to be qualified. Only then would I truly understand what is needed at the next level. This is what it means to be 'highly qualified', as we call these teachers in Texas.

Again, opinions and more opinions. I have backed facts up but apparently no one cares to read up on them. Did anyone read any of the articles I posted? One article says Homeschoolers do better typically on SAT's and another says that the college graduation rate for homeschooling is statistically higher than those who are not.

Again, I don't believe that this is due to some special talent of home school educators, but rather the importance of education in a home-schooled home. But saying the opposite (lack of specialized training) leads to less educated, specialized, well rounded students is simply not supported by data.

More fun reading:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/successful-home-school-alum_n_3806317.html

You can get the in-depth teaching if you wish. My son in 6th grade has already done research papers on Newton and Einstein. He LOVES science and math and really eats it up. That is why we were able to start him learning Physics in 6th grade. He WILL be able to learn Calculus based Physics at home.

BTW, anyone use last night's eclipse to educate? We stayed up to watch it. Besides the cool factor I could explain about planetary motion, light refraction, and light scattering (why the moon is red during an eclipse). I asked my son why the moon is illuminated at all when it's in the shadow of the earth. Why isn't it completely black? His immediate answer is due to gravitational lensing. Although incorrect, it was an interesting answer because he knows what this phenomena is. So I was able to explain that while the earth does bend the light due to gravity, it's atmospheric refraction that illuminates it. Any of the educators out there do this with their kids? If not, why not?

If I sound defensive it's because of the dismissiveness of homeschooling as a form of education. I have provided data to show that the typical myths about homeschooling are false. Yet, there is still a stigma being perpetuated about it. There's also passive arguments that homeschoolers are religious zealots. Although religion is often a reason for homeschooling, there's people who do it to control the quality of education. There's plenty of non-religious curriculum out there.

I have put out a second alternative (private schooling) which was also dismissed in favor of public education. Yet the educators or people related to educators are staunch defenders of public education as the only viable means of education. Who would have thought! My initial viewpoint was that if public education is messed up (due to common core stupidity), then find an alternate approach. I provided a couple different approaches. If you don't like them, then feel free to try to vote for change. See how well that works.

More power to you! You seem convinced that you are some sort of Renaissance Man in the 21st century!

But what Skip is saying and I am echoing is in no way eclipsed by whatever it is you think you may be doing. I have colleagues with Ph.D.s in Physics, Math, Chemistry, and Biology, from Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Johns Hopkins, U. of Chicago, etc. I assume that YOU can teach your son those subjects at the SAME level! Because the students we are preparing to teach at the H.S. level are THEIR students!

Don't you see any irony here?

Also, stop citing statistics that include the general population which has a significant amount of underfunded schools, poverty, poor parental education, unemployment, single parent homes and then comparing that to a SKEWED sample of those who have the resources, time, and stable family life, etc. to home school. Is that "really" honest? I assume you live in a poor black or Hispanic inter-city area with those "marvelous" schools that are located there? You know better than that. Let's compare home schooling SATs to the SAT scores from our better and best High Schools why don't we? What might that look like? Not that SAT scores are actually "good" predictors of success.

Again, we are NOT saying that home schooling is BAD, shouldn't be, etc. Just that it is NOT a solution for the ills of a multi-culturally diverse state the size of the U.S.

And regarding the article you cite. Yes, GIFTED individuals who can make something of themselves in almost any circumstance have existed throughout history. Exceptional examples are NEVER a cogent argument in the social sciences.

Regardless, I do think your boy is lucky to have a father who is as concerned and involved in his education. That is a great thing which NO ONE can take away from you. And that commitment is always important for everyone. It is also what helps us, both at the public school level and in higher education, do our job "better"! And for that we thank you!

Perhaps like the Pope, we should learn to accept the best from each and everyone of us! No? And I'm not even religious!

(Oh, and Tony is right about early specialization in Chinese Education, but that is too far off topic at this point. Both "good" and "bad"-a year teaching at the Chinese Academy of Sciences was quite revealing).

sucks2beme

My big issue- just what you said. They want Kindergarten kids to read.
And then they get up a couple of grades and learning stagnates.
You spend all your time wondering how dumb the kid is next to you and
why you can't just move ahead. My older son found school boring
beyond belief. Keeping him engaged was tough.
His worst story? The inclusion kid. He wore a helmet and spend all of
6th grade banging his head on his desk for hours at a time.
In high school he skated by on boring classes, yet he would get straight
A's in hard stuff like chemistry or physics.

maximillian

cnh wrote: »

More power to you! You seem convinced that you are some sort of Renaissance Man in the 21st century!

Again, the criticism continues veiled in vain flattery. I absolutely never said anything of the sort. In fact I said previously that my life is normal. There's many people just like me. I am a regular, middle class schmo. Yet, typical debate tactic is being demonstrated by not arguing the points with facts but rather beating down the other with pointless opinions.

nooshinjohn

Thought I would jump in here with a list of the top paid state employees....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/the-highest-paid-public-employee-in-every-state/ar-AAehW7S?li=BBgzzfc#image=AAebyli|3

Tell me if our priorities aren't effed up across the board.

Gatecrasher

College is still well-worth the cost in the United States, even though some careers (such as teaching) are vastly underpaid for the amount of school required as compared to other curriculums. My mother has her Masters degree and never made a whole lot of money teaching. My sister has a PhD and while I think she makes pretty-good money now days, she didn't always.

There's more to going to college than making a lot of money afterwards. If there weren't, we wouldn't have any teachers. It takes a special kind of person to be a teacher. It's a profession that brings rewards that go beyond monetary gratification to those who have a passion for teaching.

That's why I never wanted to be a teacher (but admire those who do).