The world is laughing at US

teekay0007

I got your common core math right here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgIICQvhqMc

tonyb

kevhed72 wrote: »

I thought the illegal immigrants were to blame....or was It Obama?
I have struggled through some well written and some poorly written examples of common core math with my kids. Since common core is relatively new to public schools, and our nations education system has been near the bottom of the global rankings for decades now....is it really to blame? Perhaps if parents volunteered more and took more interest in their kid's school work....maybe we're on to something there.

Problem with that is parents now will NOT be able to help their kids with homework.

We still fail, no matter what.....why? Because we consistently fail at being able to identify a problem and solve it at it's core.

I keep hearing proponents of CC say that a standardized system is a good thing. Well, if that's the case, what did we have before ? Seems to me before I could go into any school in America and the process for math was all the same. No ?? History and science were all the same, NO ?? Most read books from approved lists...NO ?? We have government agencies that thrive on setting standards for education......so they all weren't doing their jobs ??? Then what do we need them for ??

So you want to improve education because we fail when compared to other nations ? Then address the problems, which nobody wants to do.

A lot of the problems stem from culture....a culture that seems to be declining in values. The learning process at school is easier when you have a core of good teachers around the students. Same can be said at home. Learning and homework at home also need a core around the student.

Like we say in audio....everything matters, and in the education process, everything matters also. You say you want to standardize education ?

Good, lets start with all of them speaking English. Some school districts have as many as 80 different languages being spoken, how can you possibly educate to all from teachers who speak one or 2.

Start with fixing the illegal immigration policies. The last few decades have seen our population increase by 40-50 million across our southern border. You think these are highly educated people ? You think that will put less strain on the education system....or more ?

Start with getting Unions out of the education process. Letting parents use their tax dollars for private schools so they have more choices. When you create competition in anything....what happens ?

Start with re-enforcing family values, instead of tearing them apart.

Start with good jobs for those families, less taxation so maybe a parent can be home with the kids....again. When a parent is home, someone is supervising, making sure they are fed, doing homework, staying off social media when they should be doing something else. It's called structure....something missing in todays culture.

I just mentioned 5 things to start with, none have been, or will be addressed in the education process.....and why we will continue to fail regardless of what standardized system is used.

tonyb

I wanted to add to this because the subject matter deserves it frankly. A good part of the problem with the education system is that it's locked down. What do I mean by that ?

It's locked down in the sense there is no competition, your forced to pay for it, forced to use it, with little or no say in whats being taught to your kids....or by whom.

Now lets look at other areas that use the same principles.

When you have one or 2 available cable tv providers.....does the quality and cost go up or down ? Does it ever change no matter how much you complain ?

Healthcare.....when you go to one universal system like we have done, you remove competition and what happens to the costs ? UP or down ? Did the quality improve or go down ?

Just 2 examples, but the end result is always the same. That's helping education ?

Common core isn't about helping the education system. It's about educating alright, but educating to a specific set of ideology to a captive audience of young minds. That's how you bring about change, change that the powers at be like, not necessarily you the parent. The same system has been used before in other countries that aren't exactly promoting freedom and individual expression.

......and we want to bring that here, wonderful !! Such a crowning achievement for our kids. Who do I need to thank....with a brick ?

daddyjt

^^^ That ^^^ is the uncomfortable truth.

It's a plain fact that there are a few stupid kids. Wether from a lack of intelligence or a lack drive, they are not going to succeed. But now we, as a country, are slowing the WHOLE SYSTEM down, so these kids can succeed (maybe), and feel good about themselves. Genius.

Let's do this in Baseball too. No seriously. So when the first team scores a run, their at-bat is over, no matter how many outs they have. The next team gets to bat until they score a run, then it shifts back to the other team. Now baseball is FAIR, and all the teams can feel good about themselves. Everyone is a winner - in fact, we won't have a champion, all teams will SHARE the championship!

Stupid, right? Of course it is. Competition is the only constant that drives the human psyche to improve. And no, I'm not saying leave the stupid kids behind - they learn at their own rate, but not with everyone else, slowing everyone down. This approach worked for many years, until someone (Bush, no child left behind) decided that all kids needed to learn at the same rate, so no one felt bad about themselves. The inevitable consequence - without failure, there is no success...

sucks2beme

Private schools may not be the answer. Expensive ones
perform. Others, not so much. And home schooling often
isn't the answer either. Smart parents might pull it off.
A lot aren't as smart as they'd like to think.
My sister in law did this. BIG MISTAKE. I know some others
who did. Mixed results. My local school district did a pretty good job.
with my kids. The big issue is keeping them motivated with all the
modern distractions. This is the parents job.

cnh

sucks2beme wrote: »

Private schools may not be the answer. Expensive ones
perform. Others, not so much. And home schooling often
isn't the answer either. Smart parents might pull it off.
A lot aren't as smart as they'd like to think.
My sister in law did this. BIG MISTAKE. I know some others
who did. Mixed results. My local school district did a pretty good job.
with my kids. The big issue is keeping them motivated with all the
modern distractions. This is the parents job.

I agree some about private schools. Over 50 percent of those I teach at the college level are PS grads. Frankly, I am NOT impressed most of the time. These elite private schools are beholden to parents who can "afford" to pay near college level tuitions to send their children to a place where "everyone" does well, "everyone" is rewarded, "everyone" is overvalued, and MOST who arrive are already full of privilege and entitlement! They are NOT necessarily challenged, but often coddled and have their conception of themselves, which is often NOT earned but inherited due to family STATUS, reinforced. By the time I get them, if "I" tell them they are NOT the best or grade them in a manner they are not used to, they balk and complain-often bitterly. Whereas I RARELY see that from the public school kids.

This is NOT to say there are not good PS just as there are good public schools. I agree with most of what Skip and others say about that above.

As for the math example of common core given above. I've seen questions of that variety on almost EVERY test of intelligence I've ever taken or encountered. Challenges to think outside the box or more creatively. On the face of it, the question seems "absurd" because I could fashion any OTHER number responses to that question:

8 + 5 get 10. OK

I take 8, I divide it by 4 which leaves two, I multiply 2 x 5 which is the same as adding 5 twice and get 10. There is NOTHING left (not even three), 10 with NO remainder. lol

Now, I suppose I may have violated some of the parameters of the original question, but hey, YOU ASKED me to get 10 from 8 and 5 and I provided a WAY of doing that. NOW are YOU GOING to TELL ME there is only ONE right way of doing something so counter intuitive? There is NOT one way of getting 10 because the original answer above has already INTRODUCED "subtraction" as a means of achieving that? So why NOT division and multiplication?

You could also take 3 way from 8 to get 5 and add that to 5 and that is the SAME logic as the original below?

To most people taking 2 from 5 and adding 2 to 8 to get 10 seems like a form of deception. And on that note! This kind of training is PERFECT for future Wall Street Boys and Girls, I will dub it the Mathematics of the Self-Interested! Manipulate the numbers till you get WHAT YOU WANT! It's not common core, it's common market curriculum!

scubalab

Last night, while helping my 10-year old (5th grade) daughter with her math homework, I said, "hey Kara, what's 8+5?" She thought for no more than 2-3 seconds and said, "that's easy Dad, it's 13!" I asked her how she did that in her head so easily. Her response??? She said "I added 2 to 8 and got 10 and then added the other 3 that was left from the 5." She gets it.

She was doing basic geometry (volume calculations). They are just beginning this, so the problems visually show a box shape and have small cubes filling the bottom and one of the sides. The intention at this level is to have them visualize the volume and basically count the cubes. I asked her if she knew the equation for volume and she said, "length times width times height". Perfect I thought. Then she proceeded to do the problems. Instead of counting, she was multiplying... in her head. I was quite impressed. When she explained how she got the answers, it was amazing how she was breaking the two digit numbers into their 1's and 10's digits and multiplying. So, that basic knowledge is carrying through and working for her.

I agree with most everyone's opinions here, and there are most definitely larger issues that need to be solved. But for the concept behind this sample (from common core), when kids get it (and it is presented properly), it certainly seems to work. I got it at a very young age... on my own. And yes, back then, there was no holding me back because I excelled in math. Today, quite honestly, I personally haven't seen that as a that big of problem. Maybe a bit in Elementary... but in my older daughter's middle school, and I know there is a basic math and an advanced math class. And in the high school, there are still AP classes...

maximillian

sucks2beme wrote: »

Private schools may not be the answer. Expensive ones
perform. Others, not so much. And home schooling often
isn't the answer either. Smart parents might pull it off.
A lot aren't as smart as they'd like to think.
My sister in law did this. BIG MISTAKE. I know some others
who did. Mixed results. My local school district did a pretty good job.
with my kids. The big issue is keeping them motivated with all the
modern distractions. This is the parents job.

We home school as well as many of the people in our church (it's a small church). We all do well and our kids are well taught. Just because some can't do it, doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

For us, I like that my kids are taught with our values. They are taught in a small class environment. We choose the material and teaching methods. No day care to worry about; why wife is raising our kids.

I've heard that statistically, that home school kids tend to have higher grades. Not sure if this is true or not, but one thing is an important factor.... the more involved parents are in a kid's education then the better a child will do. Be it home , public, or private school. Parents are ultimately responsible for their child's education. If Common Core sucks so bad, then stop making excuses and find an alternate.

PSOVLSK

maximillian wrote: »

the more involved parents are in a kid's education then the better a child will do. Be it home , public, or private school. Parents are ultimately responsible for their child's education.

End of discussion.

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

[Parents are ultimately responsible for their child's education. If Common Core sucks so bad, then stop making excuses and find an alternate.

How can you make the parents the ultimate responsibility while at the same time taking away choice, or a voice in the curriculum ? How can they be the bottom line when bad teachers are allowed to still teach, and activists who promote violence are allowed to talk to grade schoolers ?

While I can agree Parents hold the majority of that responsibility, they are left with little alternatives.

Common Core does suck that bad, even most teachers hate it. If the teachers hate it, the students hate it, the parents hate it......then you tell me why we have it then ?

Has nothing to do with addressing our lacking education system, nor does it do one thing to promote choice, thinking for yourself, or take into consideration parents concerns. It' does zip, except complicate things more. There was nothing wrong with the way the system was before, but as usual we fail to address the real problems.

Cutting my lawn is also my responsibility. How about if the village says I can't use a lawn mower, have to cut it every Friday rain or shine using a weed wacker or hedge trimmer, and they will be out to measure the blades of grass. Ultimately though, it's my responsibility.....right ?

tonyb

It's not that it's new Skip, it's asinine. If parents hold the ultimate responsibility, then they should have the ultimate say-so, yes ?? They pay for that education, Yes ?

......AND PRAY TELL, what does the Governors association have to do with education ? In my state they go to jail left and right....I want them to have sway over education ? What kind of backwards thinking is going on here ?

BlueFox

tonyb wrote: »

It's not that it's new Skip, it's asinine. If parents hold the ultimate responsibility, then they should have the ultimate say-so, yes ?? They pay for that education, Yes ?

Since many parents aren't very bright, having them make education choices is a disaster. I suspect that is why you have standards. I don't have any kids, but still pay, and don't mind it.

daddyjt

DSkip wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

It's a plain fact that there are a few stupid kids. Wether from a lack of intelligence or a lack drive, they are not going to succeed. But now we, as a country, are slowing the WHOLE SYSTEM down, so these kids can succeed (maybe), and feel good about themselves. Genius.

Please be careful how you word this as it is a very sensitive topic that almost requires PC. I won't voice my concerns on here for many reasons, but I will make it aware that I teach three inclusion classes and two resource classes this year. We do these kids a service that is extremely beneficial for them, and I don't regard any of them as stupid. A problem with commitment is another issue entirely, and often times these are actually some of your brighter kids who are either bored or have been influenced by external factors we as teachers have no control over. I am a firm believer in the social aspect being a larger contributor to a person's personality than the actual psychological aspect.

You are absolutely right, Skip - I chose my words poorly there, and I apologize for the way that came across.

My intent was to point out that some kids are not going to learn at the average pace of most of the other kids. These kids need focused attention, and we should not hold the rest of the kids back as a result.

deronb1

When writing an IEP, the justification of accomodations is in relation to "typical peers". What does that mean? It means that there are standards in which students are expected to demonstrate competancy.

Students who have difficulty meeting the standards go through 0a three tier process called RTI. If the response to intervention is unsuccessful, that student gets referred for an evaluation. If its determined that the child has an academic or emotional disability, then another meeting is scheduled with parents and a slew of other persons and an IEP begins it shape.

Its a lengthy, time consuming and expensive process. Most students respond favorably to the interventions and no IEP is needed. When done right, the whole process is highly effective. Problem is that many schools and districts dont do it properly or at all.

Toolfan66

I am just going to add that I am enjoying this topic, and have to say I am learning a lot from it, I hope this stays on topic, and doesn't get closed down as this has been one of the best threads here in a very long time...

I struggled in school for the most part, mostly due to growing up in a bad part of town, and being one of two or three white kids in the neighborhood didn't help much, a lot of fighting and no focus on school..

Also, I hate do say anything bad about my upbringing, but my real dad passed away when I was 2 and my mom became an alcoholic and basically had what I had to call a stepdad that was just as bad and very abusive, verbally and physically to me and my mom, so my growing up was a tough one to say the least..

I didn't really start to take school seriously until high school, I still graduated a year late, but I graduated sober, was doing really good had my mind focused on drafting wanting to start DIT Denver Institute of Technology, I was ready, I was becoming what my stepdad said I never would be.. Know what I got after graduating? For one neither one came to my graduation, two I was thrown out of the house...

My life spiraled out of control for a few years, living here or there, back to drugs even worse drugs then I had done before (for the record I haven't done drugs since Oct 11 1991..)

Why do I bring this up? Because when you become a parent you do everything to help that kid succeed, I would have never thought about doing anything like that to my kids..

My son is smart as a whip, and did very well in school, sometimes he was more bored because it didn't challenge him enough..

It was his choice to move to NY after high school after he turned 18, he just turned 25 and has done very well for himself..

My point is it starts at HOME....

Thanks for the good read guys....

Toolfan66

Let me just add, I may not have become what I was hoping to be after high school but I did succeed in breaking what could've been a horrible cycle, and taking care of my kids the best can and will continue to do so ...

teekay0007

Toolfan66 wrote: »

Let me just add, I may not have become what I was hoping to be after high school but I did succeed in breaking what could've been a horrible cycle, and taking care of my kids the best can and will continue to do so ...

Now, if everybody did this, this world would be one heck of a better place to live!

That's some pretty deep stuff there, Larry. Congratulations on your breaking out of what many probably said was a predetermined course in life for you. Quite remarkable, indeed.

cnh

That's a very touching story, Larry. You really overcame a lot and became a good man in the process! Wish we had more like you around.

Nightfall

Toolfan66 wrote: »

had what I had to call a stepdad that was just as bad and very abusive, verbally and physically to me and my mom, so my growing up was a tough one to say the least..

My life spiraled out of control for a few years, living here or there, back to drugs even worse drugs then I had done before

We have a lot in common, Larry. Last time I drove from CO to WI to visit my dad the first words he said were "Am I supposed to be happy to see you?" Last I heard he was in AA. My mother was smart to get away. I've been sober for 6 years or so. Quitting was the hardest thing I have ever done. More tough than the Army, for sure.

I'm glad to hear your happy ending. Most aren't.

Congrats to your son, sounds like a great person.

+1000 to you, much respect.

aprazer402

Larry, Thank you for sharing, it's a very difficult thing to do. I admire that you overcame those challenges and have done very well since. You are so right, it really does start at HOME. Best wishes to you and your family. Thanks again.

maximillian

tonyb wrote: »

How can you make the parents the ultimate responsibility while at the same time taking away choice, or a voice in the curriculum ?

I am responsible for my children's well being. I answer to God for it. I cannot blame someone else. Public school is not the only option out there. My wife and I home school. We choose the curriculum and we choose the teaching method. No state meddling. The state only asks for a report card at the end of the year (although the specific requirements varies from state to state).

In central MA there is a convention of home schoolers:

http://www.masshope.org/index.php?sub=Convention

There's LOTS of curriculums to choose from, and you can even mix and match. Parents can choose traditional style teaching, Montessori education, Common core methods, and many in between options.

And before you say that this isn't an option for everyone because both parents have to work, I will say that I am by no means rich. Everyone I know who home schools is not rich. I know one family where both parents work too. It can be done by most families willing to put in the effort. The biggest challenge is commitment. But if you're serious about your kid's education then this isn't a problem.

Another alternative is private schooling. Again, don't need to be that rich to do this. There's many schools out there that are a few thousand dollars per year per kid, depending on location and the school type. We did it for a few years before home schooling. It was better than public school, but my wife was spending 2-4 hours a night on homework. At that point home schooling is not that much more of a time commitment.

But you're right, if you are committed to public school then you don't really have a choice except to become an activist.

tonyb

Home schooling is not an option when the majority of folks both work. Private school is not an option either because it's too expensive. This is where the strength of our economy comes into play and the availability of good jobs along with our immigration problem. I'll say it again....everything runs hand in hand. Remember....50% of the working general public makes less than 30k a year, so a couple grand even for private school is going to be out. 33% of those making 75k a year live paycheck to paycheck.

It doesn't matter if parents aren't all that educated, they should still have a voice in the process and all things related to the childs education. They are not the states children, not the federal governments children.

I'm all for learning standards, but to reach a goal you need to be able to adjust. Different kids need different things....teachers need some leeway in how they teach. Different schools need some leeway in adjusting their curriculum. A one size fits all education system will not deliver the intended results and probably make it worse.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

Tony, some of the schools I've been at have parents with an average education of 4th grade. That's the average....

Well then Skip, your area's needs are different from the more affluent districts then.....right ? How can you possibly teach the same to both ?

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

It's not that it's new Skip, it's asinine. If parents hold the ultimate responsibility, then they should have the ultimate say-so, yes ?? They pay for that education, Yes ?

Since many parents aren't very bright, having them make education choices is a disaster. I suspect that is why you have standards. I don't have any kids, but still pay, and don't mind it.

Even not too sharp parents know the differences between right and wrong Fox. Now, lazy parents want to just write a check and let the schools have total control......then complain when their kid is 18 and an idiot. Guess you can never stop that.

Larry is right though, it all begins at home.....but it certainly doesn't end there either. Education has many facets to it, you can't fix it by changing the entire system and then washing your hands of it all without addressing all that it encompasses.

.....and one more thing to ponder.

Didn't we just go through all the B.S. with "No child left behind" ? Same thing....standardized testing. What happened to that program ? Complete failure....fraud.

So some bureaucratic idiot from Illinois decides to do a lot of the same crap under a different name. How astounding it is our ability to spend more money, our money, on things we already had. You won't see me waving any flags for this stupidity.

markmarc

It's been fascinating to read the various viewpoints.

I've had several students go on to be home schooled for HS, and a few others leave earlier for the same reason. The key I've observed with successful home schooled kids is that the parent in charge is organized, has a strong personality, and understands that learning can take place in a wide variety of situations. One former student loved cooking and learned fractions by making dishes, etc. in sizes different than what the recipe called for originally.

I'm also impressed by the recognition that income and poverty play in educational development. Study after study proves that poverty has a huge effect on learning and test scores. In no way am I saying that we need to write everybody a check. Tonyb put it best when he said we need to create an economy of jobs that pay wages that create a strong society. And yes, we need to overhaul the tax code so that it is fair for all instead of creating winners and losers. But it is interesting that If our public schools only had to count the same percentage of poverty student's test score as those countries in the top ten of educationa ratings, the USA would easily fit into the top ten.

When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's school districts had plenty of $$, and bond issues passed easily. Class sizes were reasonable 25-28. Troubled kids dropped out and went to work in the local factory, mine, etc. others took shop classes and learned a quality vocation.

But since the war on education began look at what has happened. The economy has changed, no longer can kids drop out and work in factories. Those jobs are gone. Tax cuts and the anti-tax movement are part of budget squeeze (state mandated and negotiated retirement costs, and insurance of all types are the others) have forced class sizes to rise into the mid to upper 30's, along with the destruction of shop classes (even though 1/3 of all graduates today will have a vocational career). Where there used to be way more teachers than jobs, now there is a shortage and it's getting worse. Who wants to go into a profession that gets vilified at every turn while doing far more social work than 30 years ago?

Blaming teacher unions (as a parochial teacher I have no union), is a false assumption. Since the late 1980's when unions and districts began using the Akron Plan to identify, mentor, and either improve or let go of struggling teachers, unions have identified and rid themselves of ineffective teachers at a higher rate than the districts. Teachers do not as some demagogues claim use the exact same plans year after year. With all the additional oversight required since 2000, I can tell you that myself and others change upwards of 75% every year, that's even before CCS. The finest teacher I ever worked with lost her job directly because she didn't have a union to back her. Even though a vast majority of parents supported her the principal had caved to three parents (students were true underachievers) that she was too tough, due to daily calls and emails that ate up the administrators time. The end result over two years our middle school math and science scores fell from #1 to out of the top ten. We are finally seeing some movement back up.

I finish with what I pointed out in my first post, families that value and prize education make the biggest difference.

tonyb

Good points....as you said too, school isn't for everyone and those factory jobs are gone. So what do they do then ? They stand outside Wal-Mart and McDonalds picketing for higher wages because they can't raise a family on minimum wage.

There is a huge difference Marc, between families that value and prize quality education, and those who think they are entitled to it. Which demographic is growing in leaps and bounds ?

Circles back to some of my original posts. Quality education will be reserved for the more affluent, the masses get the crap. Same thing is happening to our healthcare system. We are told to accept this new level of learning for the masses, accept lower forms of healthcare.

Both are junk, and whats missing in both is competition. That's not allowed though in either. Would you be happy accepting 2 brands of audio gear to buy ? How about accepting only 2 brands of cars to drive ? Buy food at only 2 national chain grocery stores ?

Of course you wouldn't.....so why do we accept it when it comes to our kids education ?

tonyb

In my day, Unions had a reason for their existence. Those that dropped out of school went to work in one, learned a trade, made a decent buck and lived a good lifestyle. Today they've outlived their usefulness and are nothing more than political arms and money grubbers supporting their own existence.

Mike Rowe does wonders getting kids focused on learning a trade if school doesn't suit them. One of Common Cores goals was to get younger kids prepped for college.

Yeah, college that most can't afford or take out loans that will most likely never be paid back. Once out of college and being in debt up to their eyeballs, they find the good paying jobs are far and few between.

So lets re-cap shall we.....

We need to re-invent the wheel in our education process because the old one was failing the students....supposedly. The same old one that gave us America's greatest generations, split the Atom, sent people to the moon, gave us computers and tech companies.....yeah, that system is no good anymore.

Then we need to prepare them for college....that most can't afford.....for jobs that aren't there.

.....and we need to fashion the whole thing with a previous failed attempt in No child left behind.

WONDERFUL !!!! How proud we all must be.

daddyjt

This film is a must-watch on this subject. It's infuriating, heartbreaking, and inspiring.

westmassguy

This has turned out to be a great thread. One thing that has not been brought up, to my knowledge, is the Constitution. That pesky little document our framers created to LIMIT the powers of the central government. If it's not in the Constitution, it falls to the States. Education is nowhere to be found in that document. There should be no "Common Core", No "No Child Left Behind", or Department of Education for that matter.
The Federal Government gets around these limits by waving a carrot. We'll give you X number of dollars towards your Public Educational Systems, but, and there's always a but, you must follow these guidelines, programs or methods. It's pervasive and insidious.

deronb1

Tony, Unions are more important than ever in education, especially in inner city school districts. Because of the paradigm shift in thinking, teachers are exposed to false claims from students and their families, violence while on the job and abusive practices from administration, who are under tremendous financial and performance pressures.

Unions provide protection that is reasonable for most. Are there some crappy and lazy teachers who keep their jobs because of this? Yes, but its few and far between. Removing Unions would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.