The world is laughing at US

F1nut

That was a typo that I noticed as soon as it was posted but the forum doesn't allow me to edit the error.

Sure it does, hover over the top right corner and like magic the edit option appears.

But you knew that.

maximillian

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Once again you're grasping for anything you can think of to keep from admitting you've fallen for this anti-common core BS. Either that or you support dishonesty as long as it suits your agenda. You might want to try weaning yourself off the Fox News. It's been known to fry your brain.

...Instead taking the easy way out and totally deserting the public school system like some have chosen do...

It's quite telling when you rely on methods of gratuitous stereotyping, obtuse generalities, and personal attacks to prove your point.

Gatecrasher wrote: »

Well it wasn't working obviously. Where have you been? That's why the test scores were horrible in math for American kids and the rest of the world was kicking our butts.

Who says? Granted we're not #1, but the decline isn't a recent phenomena. Sorry, I am looking for trends of math score comparing the US to other countries. But many alarmist articles out there say that the match decline has occurred within the past decade.

{ Added this:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/education-july-dec13-pisaresults_12-02/
and also read the EPI's article linked from this one. It states that numbers alone cannot be used to implement policy changes due to the complexity of the data. Unfortunately, many, many articles out there simply focus on the numbers.
}

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Historical_Average_SAT_Scores_(Vector).svg

First, the variation isn't THAT large ~6% over the past 50 years. Second, if you read the articles where this comes from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

There's some attempt to explain the variations, and it seems that changing demographics is one of the leading causes.

Common core roots started in the 80's abroad (mainly Asia) and in America in the 90's. The upward trend in recent years is before the implementation of common core methods. So there seems to be other factors involved.

America could be #1 in education (pre college level) if there was a push for excellence and a passion for education in the general public's eye. The government can try but won't have a magic fix. The people have to care.

markmarc

Tony, I applaud you taking the time to put frothier ideas. As I tell my students, "Don't whine, solve!"
Some of what you say I completely agree. Now, I do have some disagreements with some of your ideas based on three decades in education, along with experience in seeing versions of you ideas in action. But you are right, a thoughtful, reasoned discussion is healthy.

tonyb wrote: »

If I had to start from scratch.....talking grades 1-12, I might start with,

Each state getting x amount from the federal government which is adjusted for population. Each state must meet a min. requirement in education of the basics in Math, English, History. No strings attached, no agendas added in, no PC B.S.

A single test administered in all states? If so, that forces a single set of standards for each year. That could be perceived as CCish, you may have already created strings by minimum standards, something you have railed against.

tonyb wrote: »

Each state then distributes that money to the districts, again by population.

Each district decides how to appropriate that money, spend it where needed. Each district has a panel of parents who have to OK curriculums, reading materials, etc, brought forth by teachers or administrators. The same board of parents will also OK pay scales for each position with a range for each position.....and also fire whoever needs it too. Districts should be set up according to populations and not too lop sided so as one district gets tons of cash while another gets squat.

I whole-heartily agree with block grants to states based upon population, and then passed out by the state education agency. Where we part ways is the parents being in charge of curriculum. The average parent does not have the educational background or pedagogy to determine importance, relevance, etc., as CNH has so alluded to. Veteran teachers are classroom experts. Here's a fact, the most successful parent-run charter schools are locally run in conjunction with with the local school district board. Why? Because they rely on the expertise to guide and frame them in the specific charter school curriculum.

Pay scales based on position has been discussed for decades. We all acknowledge that science and math teachers would do best salary-wise in the public sector. But pilot programs have not fared so well.

Firing a teacher shouldn't be easy (putting aside criminal acts), too many emotions swamp logic and common sense. The process needs to be fair and balanced. People forget that kids are immature, logic has not developed, therefore, they do not act rationally. Maturity is a slow to develop outcome.

tonyb wrote: »

The Principles of each school will recommend raises for those who deserve it from classroom results and parent recommendations. Individual Principles know who the good or bad teachers are, they are closer to the battlefield that someone sitting on a state or federal board.

How do you base classroom results? Just a test? My most successful classes in 21 years were not the highest test achievers, but instead were the most creative kids. The parent recommendation is a double-edged sword. We lost a terrific teacher this past summer as she moved back home. By the end of each year few parents loved her. But by the end of 8th grade they overwhelmingly realized that her high standards benefitted the kids. I doubt she would survive your plan.

I agree, that in most cases all staff know who the best of the best teachers are in the building. But sadly, bias and pressure does cause poor decisions in retaining and firing. We had a rookie teacher who looked great on paper, parents and kids loved her, but we all knew that the kids were falling further and further behind even though her partner teacher next door was a true master. The principal should have let her go as she walled off any support from the master. But the principal liked her and since the parents were happy she got a second year. It was only after seeing the difference in the two remixed classes in the next grade did it become obvious what was going on. She was dismissed after year two.

tonyb wrote: »

I would get rid of most administrators that eat up a lot of the budget. Kids would have to pass a test at each grade level to move on. Those tests will be determined by Principles/administration/teachers/parents. Each student gets 2 tries to pass, with a week or 2 in between for tutoring in case the first attempt goes south. After that, you fail and redo the whole year. Teachers and school authorities should have more sway in determining tests, as parents may feel a need to make them too easy.

I believe that non-school admin should be capped at 3% of the district budget. Beyond that, it becomes a bureaucratic nightmare.

Tests are a very poor way to show year-long learning and progress. They are used because it is quick and easy. Instead, portfolios of classwork from each subject should be used. These show true learning specific to that school's curriculum.

tonyb wrote: »

No school should be held to Unions if they don't want it. That also means those that do certainly can, but it shouldn't be a forced issue.

Workers have a right to organize and to be heard. Smart negotiators on both sides plus an arbitrator can make for fair and balanced contract, both short and long term.

tonyb wrote: »

Classes would also be restricted to 25, any more and the teacher is simply not going to be able to give attention to all. 25 is even pushing it, maybe that is best left to the Principles of each school as they know first hand each Teachers capabilities....or they should anyway.

To me 26 is perfect, as odd numbers can play havoc when doing partner or group activities.

tonyb wrote: »

Each district would be allowed to do fundraisers as they see fit, within reason of course. Unlike Kansas who raises school funds by selling p o r n and taxing that. Yeah, you heard that right.

Sad, very sad. But it must be mentioned that Kansas wouldn't be in such a bad predicament if the idiot Gov. Brownback wasn't in office. He has truly mangled the state budget. People can read and judge for themselves.

tonyb wrote: »

Each district would be responsible for meeting or staying under budget. Each district can petition for more taxpayer funds by vote at the appropriate times.

For the overwhelming majority of districts that is the case every year.

That's a start anyway in my mind. [/quote]

Thanks TonyB

tonyb

Gatecrasher wrote: »

I have respect for teachers though because I have lived with a bunch of them and know how hard they really do work and how much they really do care about the kids. A lot more than the people who are trying tear down the public school system and common core do.

Didn't realize you cornered the market on caring about kids. Kudos to you, please send me a check for next years tuition will ya.

If we didn't care, we wouldn't criticize Public schools, Home schools, Private schools, Common core or Apple core. Most of us here tend to want to make it better instead of being complacent with whats given to us.

The people who started CC came from Illinois and were responsible for some of the worst Public school systems. That got some promoted to run the school systems on a national level. Which by any stretch you have to ask how does failure grant you promotions ? How does lack of achievement allow you to be able to spread those ideas nation wide ? Does your company reward failure ? Do you as a parent reward failure ? Then why should it be acceptable in schools ?

Yes, schools are like a partnership between the system and parents. So lets bring in more parents who don't care.....that's a great idea. That won't compound the problem any will it. While we are at it, lets tear apart the family unit so the student has even less support. It only makes sense then that you have to take those pesky parents out of the equation and simply hand your kids over to the state. Where have I heard that one before ?

First you have to decide the goals of k-12 education. We can't even agree on the goals let alone how to get there. So lets leave that up to the state/feds to decide ?
Yeah, they do so well in everything they touch.

tonyb

This thread should coincide with the "trying to cut down on drinking " thread......as a reason not to.

deronb1

Nothing to see here folks, move along. Mind the dead horse to your left.

[Deleted User]

I know it might be difficult, but keep to the original thread's subject and leave the political comments out of it or it will be closed.

maximillian

Would a common core teacher please add the following for me:

263.48
1922.11
675.23

These are checks and you are standing in line at the bank. Please do so quickly enough before I push you out of line.

motorhead43026

All I have to say, those that believe common core is a new world order conspiracy is "BOO"

mrbiron

Trick question Max, I use my bank of america app to deposit my checks at the kitchen table!

*Side humor

StevieB

Common core, helped launch the technology generation and put men on the moon. Oh yeah, never mind.

maximillian

mrbiron wrote: »

Trick question Max, I use my bank of america app to deposit my checks at the kitchen table!

*Side humor

LOL. I knew someone would say something like that, or "I use the Calc app on my phone", or "I used the ATM", or "the teller did it for me".

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

Would a common core teacher please add the following for me:

263.48
1922.11
675.23

These are checks and you are standing in line at the bank. Please do so quickly enough before I push you out of line.

Dude, you have no idea how hard it is for me to watch people not be able to do that and fumbling around for a phone to use the calc. app.

I love technology to a point, but sometimes it makes us stupid by doing everything for us.

steveinaz

Skip,
I support teachers 100%. I know they are not at fault, what is at fault is lack of structure, discipline, and someone "in-charge" in our public schools. Also, parents who don't participate and don't support the teachers. This is primarily WHY graduation rates are suffering.

Gatecrasher,
I "know" that 8+5=13 because if I have 8 apples over there, and five apples over here, and I combine them and re-count, I have 13 apples. That was "common core" 1966 style.

Graduation rates are not low because we don't have common core; grad rates are low because we no longer have structure, discipline, and order in our schools. Common core is simply a distraction because nobody has the balls to restore discipline in our schools, and because some feel "discipline' is "mean."

Moose68Bash

Gatecrasher wrote: »

That was a typo that I noticed as soon as it was posted but the forum doesn't allow me to edit the error.

But you knew that.

Once again you're grasping for anything you can think of to keep from admitting you've fallen for this anti-common core BS.

Actually, the Forum allows edits of posts for one hour after the initial posting. So, I could not infer that it was a typo from your premise.

Also, your statement that I'm "grasping for anything ( I ) can think of to keep from admitting [I've] fallen for this anti-common core BS" is what a good friend of mine would call an "unwarranted suppository."

Where did I say that I was "anti-common core?"

Oh, and while you're at it, where does your "once again" come from?

PS: Please note that I edited two typos in my comment about eight minutes after it was first posted.

aprazer402

steveinaz wrote: »

Skip,
I support teachers 100%. I know they are not at fault, what is at fault is lack of structure, discipline, and someone "in-charge" in our public schools. Also, parents who don't participate and don't support the teachers. This is primarily WHY graduation rates are suffering.

Gatecrasher,
I "know" that 8+5=13 because if I have 8 apples over there, and five apples over here, and I combine them and re-count, I have 13 apples. That was "common core" 1966 style.

Graduation rates are not low because we don't have common core; grad rates are low because we no longer have structure, discipline, and order in our schools. Common core is simply a distraction because nobody has the balls to restore discipline in our schools, and because some feel "discipline' is "mean."

Discipline in school? I did not fear the school (the nuns were strict) nearly as much as my parents if I ever dared to misbehave in school or at home for that matter.

tonyb

steveinaz wrote: »

Skip,
I support teachers 100%. I know they are not at fault, what is at fault is lack of structure, discipline, and someone "in-charge" in our public schools. Also, parents who don't participate and don't support the teachers. This is primarily WHY graduation rates are suffering.

Gatecrasher,
I "know" that 8+5=13 because if I have 8 apples over there, and five apples over here, and I combine them and re-count, I have 13 apples. That was "common core" 1966 style.

Graduation rates are not low because we don't have common core; grad rates are low because we no longer have structure, discipline, and order in our schools. Common core is simply a distraction because nobody has the balls to restore discipline in our schools, and because some feel "discipline' is "mean."

True Steve, but teachers have to teach was is told them to teach. At the elementary levels they have little wiggle room. People in general do support teachers, the good ones anyway. Unfortunately the curriculum that's being taught puts teachers on the front line to bear parents anger and frustrations. They get it from both sides, which makes their jobs extremely stressful.

Structure, discipline, and order in our schools.....yeah maybe, but that also is needed at home too which is absent. Again, culture plays into this more than we care to admit.

We have lowered the bar in our elementary education because we are afraid to fail kids. Might hurt their psyche, so we pass them. What good are standards if a lot are not held to them or the standards get adjusted so more can graduate ?

My neighbors kid, entered high school without being able to read. How did he make it that far without reading ? He finally was tutored and graduated HS reading on a 3rd grade level. How is that possible ? Yeah, he had parents that sat him in front of a playstation as a babysitter his whole life and didn't give a rats a$$ one way or the other. They felt it was the schools responsibility to teach him these things, that's what they are paying them for and if he fails it's because the schools suck or the teachers do.

That's the mentality of a lot of people, just write a check and wash your hands of it. Thing that gets me is, these are people who were not raised that way themselves, so where does this mentality come from ?

Gatecrasher

Moose68Bash wrote: »

Actually, the Forum allows edits of posts for one hour after the initial posting. So, I could not infer that it was a typo from your premise.

PS: Please note that I edited two typos in my comment about eight minutes after it was first posted.

How do you edit a post? Other forums have an icon to click on at the bottom but I don't see anything on this one.

Never mind - I see it up top now.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Moose68Bash

You're welcome.

maximillian

+1 F1Nut. Not only political, but he keeps pulling religion into it too.

OK, here's a good, albeit lengthy article on the opposition of common core. It is neither religious or politically motivated. The article is a dictation of a speech so unfortunately it doesn't link to the source of the facts. However, the speaker is not controversial so I wouldn't just excuse the data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/01/18/everything-you-need-to-know-about-common-core-ravitch/

If you prefer a 2 minute summary, then watch this article. I won't embed the video to save space, but it can be found here:

youtu.be/M0nB1Bvlofg

deronb1

Really! Thought this was done.

Moose68Bash

I trust nobody will miss the sarcasm in my post above!

Gatecrasher

This thread was "political" from the 1st post. To say it wasn't is totally dishonest (either that or you would have to be so out of touch with reality you can't tell the difference).

I don't start threads like this - ever. But I do respond to the BS. If people don't like the response, they shouldn't start these politically-motivated threads.

One interesting fact from the Bill Gates interview was about Kentucky. Traditionally one of the worst states for education and the first to embrace Common Core in 2006. Prior to Common Core less than 33% of high school seniors were considered ready for college. Now it is over 66% in just a few years.

Those are the facts.

Moose68Bash

KennethSwauger wrote: »

I know it might be difficult, but keep to the original thread's subject and leave the political comments out of it or it will be closed.

@KennethSwauger,

Ken, what are you waiting for?

F1nut

No gatebasher, you are wrong, very wrong on the reason I started this thread. You saw the link was from Fox News and jumped to a conclusion, which says a lot about your reality. The fact is that story was covered by multiple news sources, if you had bothered to look.

I started this thread because I care about this country and the education of its people, period.

One last thing, don't you ever say or imply again that I am dishonest, EVER!!!

You own me an apology.

nooshinjohn

Don't think that will be coming any time soon Jesse. When guys like him are wrong, they will just spew more crap. It's what they do, and thanks to a lack of critical thinking skills being encouraged in the education system, most will just stay stupid rather than open their eyes.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

US deficit and math? No, math has nothing to do with that. It has to do with people being out of touch with reality and only caring about their own immediate future. They don't feel the deficit, therefore it is not a worry for them.

.

That's basically X's point Skip, those running the show live in another universe.
Your right though too, we have to address the cultural aspect also. However like I said before, those in charge lack the ability to identify a problem. They come up with solutions first, then create a problem to match. We as a society can't even define what a man or woman is anymore, but we know common core is the answer for our education system ? Really ?

cnh

Can't disagree, Tony! And to Ken, I do think that we swerved too far from Jesse's original post (I blame myself as well there, although with regard to the CC math question I found myself on the side of the "perplexed"). Slowly, a number of individuals, including Skip, tried to clarify what was being taught. Context helped to make things look a little less ridiculous. But and here, I paraphrase Skip, I am not privy to the nuts and bolts of themes, ideas, goals of CC in math. So, like Skip in his example above, I'm willing to hear a discussion concerning these from those who know more about the specifics. My experiences with Chinese students in China and the same in the U.S. demonstrates that with regard to STEM, those educated there at the better municipal schools are very very good. The problem? (And perhaps Skip could step in here?) Lies in individual thinking, creativity and innovation. I gave a number of lectures when I was in China on such themes and I desperately tried to relate them to the Chinese experience (since my students were Grad Students in the hard sciences I spent some time discussing the lives of T.D. Lee and Samuel C.C. Ting-both Nobel Laureates in Physics-I also showed some footage of Ting's acceptance speech, in which he talks about creativity, non-conformity, and the individual-the speech was also the first to be delivered in Chinese). Both, were, educated at major Universities in the U.S. Lee a student of Fermi at Chicago, Ting at U of Michigan (where his parents also studied before they left to return to China and then fled to Taiwan). Ting, was actually home schooled for a period by his parents due to the disruptions of WWII. Of all the talks I gave in China, this one, in particular, resonated like no other. And I was really stepping out of my comfort zone here. But it was my humble contribution as an American.

So what is the point? It's very difficult to teach, creativity, and the ability to think outside the box. I've met dozens of grad students who are "always" asking, what should my thesis research BE? Really? You decided to pursue an advanced degree and you can't come up with an original idea that drives you, that becomes your raison d'etre? But the "gifted" ones rarely have this problem, and often have more than ONE idea/project in mind.

And this is the ONE area where we still lead the Chinese, for now? One that is far more important than "specific content" or "content" alone. It's never been about a simple "mastery" of some standardized content, but what you can "do" with it.

What we need is a Jamesian "Varieties of Educational Experience". Rather than a one size fits all.

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

.

What we need is a Jamesian "Varieties of Educational Experience". Rather than a one size fits all.

Bingo pal. That idea however is more obtainable in the upper learning institutions, but the lower level public school systems could benefit as well, if we so desired. Too many special interests muck it all up though, much like the special interests do in everything else they touch.

My mind wanders as to what the public school system CAN be, if we let it.

Gatecrasher

That doesn't make a lot of sense. That was the way education was before Common Core was embraced by 42 of the 50 states. Lack of consistency in education was why the world was kicking our butts in education - not because of Common Core.

A kid could move from a state like Kentucky that had lower standards to a state with higher standards and they would basically have to be put back a grade or two because of the lack of standardization. The main purpose of high school is to prepare kids for college and a career. Not to make things as easy as possible for them. Why do you think so many high school graduates can't read or write at a 12th grade level? Why do you think the rest of the world's kids are better in math? Some schools were failing their mission.

Once you graduate High School, everyone is on the same playing field. The SATs and entrance exams for college don't have easier versions of the tests for kids who came from a state with backwards education standards. Kids from the underachieving states (primarily in the south) were at a disadvantage.

The main goal of Common Core is to raise the bar on American education and is a proven success. The numbers don't lie. Common Core is based on scientific research and proven teaching techniques. The opposition to Common Core is based on myths and misinformation.

In 2006 the support for Common Core was almost universal. Then after January 20, 2009 a certain minority of the population was all of a sudden against it (and just about everything else).

Funny how that works isn't it? That's why the world is laughing at us.