The world is laughing at US

[Deleted User]

I like Canada. They gave us RUSH and bare fisted fighting!!

nbrowser wrote: »

You Americans....so funny!

With Love from Canada where 1+1=2

[Deleted User]

BTW uno + uno = dos

tonyb

deronb1 wrote: »

Tony, Unions are more important than ever in education, especially in inner city school districts. Because of the paradigm shift in thinking, teachers are exposed to false claims from students and their families, violence while on the job and abusive practices from administration, who are under tremendous financial and performance pressures.

Unions provide protection that is reasonable for most. Are there some crappy and lazy teachers who keep their jobs because of this? Yes, but its few and far between. Removing Unions would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Pressures that many non-union workers also hold ? Not buying it. We already have labor laws for protection.

Pay is another matter but also Union related. Nobody I know in the last 8 years is getting automatic 3-5% raises every year and pension benefits that equal congress.....which is another subject. They should all be on 401k's and at the very least mirror what the norm is for a given geographical area.


Daddy,
The statement at the bottom of the cover you posted is very true. Which is why there is this push to indoctrinate the youth to change the future of the country. This is not a new concept as Russia/China/and middle eastern countries use the same concepts.

In other words, the way the country is now or in the past must somehow be unacceptable for the future to want to change the whole education process. That which is unacceptable for the future is America in general. Liberty, privacy, property rights.....just won't work for a future America.

I said before we have a problem with dealing with identifying problems and solving them....minus the political B.S. We also have a problem with taking people at their word.

For instance.....Iran, who consistently say death to us, Isis who wants to kill all who don't believe in Islam. We don't believe them, even though we see it every day on the news. If you research the organizations behind Common Core, the people who promote it, what they think and say, it's pretty scary. Yet we fail to believe them. What happens when your walking down the street and someone points a gun in your face and says "give me your wallet" ? You going to believe his intentions, or risk he's bluffing ?

To me Common Core is an attempt to equal the playing field with the rest of the world. Bring us down to their levels, not them up to ours. Why does everyone want to come here ? No other place on the planet offers the array of liberty, opportunity that we do. Once we are done.....where you going to go ? Is the one place in the world that offers so much not worth protecting ? Ask yourself that.

I see no reason to become like the rest of the world, we've done pretty darn good on our own. They should be mirroring us, giving their people liberty, safety, human rights, good educations, robust economies. People wouldn't want to leave their home countries then .

I know that's easier said than done, but is what others should be striving for, not knocking us down.

tonyb

Skip,
We agree on most of this. If parents could educate well enough, we wouldn't need teachers. That's why home schooling is hit or miss. Of course we need teachers to educate, but they also need the leeway to accomplish that task and teach a curriculum that parents have a say in. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

I've already said my displeasure with No child left behind, it's standardized testing which lead to fraudulent tests scores so the money keeps rolling in and people keep their jobs.

How is Common core different ? Yes my issue is with Common core, who set the standards, and the reasons for it's implementation. None of which makes any sense btw.

You create a new education system without the input from teachers or parents ? That's like policy making in Washington.....and we all know how well that works.

tonyb

My point is....in order to solve a problem, you have to first identify it....no ? Much the same you do in a business. Whats the goal, how do we achieve it ? Throw away the "We can't do that". Think outside the box, what works, what doesn't, bottom line is results on a path to achieve a goal.

We have no will to identify the problems nor the will to fix them. Why is there no will ? Because there is no competition to foster something better.....it's not allowed. They like having your children captive, your wallet captive, it allows them to mold young minds into a certain way of thinking instead of exposing them to a variety of concepts and learning experiences.

That's how you educate, by giving the child the best possible chance at success. Having partnerships with parents and teachers, voices that are not just heard but also implemented as well when appropriate. Giving parents options in education systems, not just public schools and making those options affordable.

Schools at the elementary level should be just teaching the basics, minus the agenda driven crap. In NJ, they invited a Palestinian activist to come and talk to 3rd graders. Kids in the 3rd grade have no concept or understanding of the complexities involved in the Palestinian/Israel conflict. Nor should they, 3rd graders need not worry about such things.

tonyb

westmassguy wrote: »

This has turned out to be a great thread. One thing that has not been brought up, to my knowledge, is the Constitution. That pesky little document our framers created to LIMIT the powers of the central government. If it's not in the Constitution, it falls to the States. Education is nowhere to be found in that document. There should be no "Common Core", No "No Child Left Behind", or Department of Education for that matter.
The Federal Government gets around these limits by waving a carrot. We'll give you X number of dollars towards your Public Educational Systems, but, and there's always a but, you must follow these guidelines, programs or methods. It's pervasive and insidious.

I was going to bring that up but it will turn political fairly quickly. Good observation though, and one more need to get in tune with.

deronb1

For the record. Many districts have been in a pay freeze for years. The retirement plan is good and mirrors that of the military, without the medical benefits.

Teachers are jumping ship left and right due to pay freezes, contribution increases and changes in standards and curriculum. Theres a shortage now and its only going to get worse. Its not a crime to come together and protect the rights of workers. Labor laws dont cover the gamet of situations that befall teachers. If you are not protected by a union, then you are an at-will worker. Free to come and go as you please, but also subjuct to termination for frivolous and monetary reasons.

tonyb

deronb1 wrote: »

For the record. Many districts have been in a pay freeze for years. The retirement plan is good and mirrors that of the military, without the medical benefits.

Teachers are jumping ship left and right due to pay freezes, contribution increases and changes in standards and curriculum. Theres a shortage now and its only going to get worse. Its not a crime to come together and protect the rights of workers. Labor laws dont cover the gamet of situations that befall teachers. If you are not protected by a union, then you are an at-will worker. Free to come and go as you please, but also subjuct to termination for frivolous and monetary reasons.

Oh...you mean like the rest of the nation ? Teachers by me still get raises, and pensions that equal their salary. Most other jobs have pensions that equal salaries ? No they don't....why ? Because it's a Ponzi scheme and unsustainable. Is your pension plan fully funded ? No ? Then taxes will need to go way up or someone is going to get the shaft.....right ?

With stagnant wages, the masses can no longer support public pensions, teachers/government employees. If you stopped right now, the unfunded liabilities will bury us all alone.

frivolous and monetary reasons ? What do you think everyone else has to deal with ? God knows nobody here ever lost a job because the boss didn't like them or their company couldn't afford them.

Seems to me you seek protection FROM life, FOR life, while the costs of that get passed on to the end user who is experiencing stagnant wages and rising costs of living for the last 20 or so years.

btw....I am a Union guy too.

deronb1

In Ohio right now, a teacher has to work 35 yrs to get 75% of the average of the top 5 earning years of their career. Its good yes, but not equal. Most dont do 35 anyway and Ohio at least is looking into getting rid of retire-rehire benefit. That imo was wrong from the start.

txcoastal1

Common Core, No Child Left Behind all relative for creating an equal playing field. We have removed competition and discipline. There will always be the strong and the weak, that's just nature. Problem is we are dumbing down the strong.
You have to build up the strong to help carry the week in society not try to make them equal.

steveinaz

2016, the return of COMMON SENSE.

tonyb

deronb1 wrote: »

In Ohio right now, a teacher has to work 35 yrs to get 75% of the average of the top 5 earning years of their career. Its good yes, but not equal. Most dont do 35 anyway and Ohio at least is looking into getting rid of retire-rehire benefit. That imo was wrong from the start.

Well, then that's a start anyway. Here in Illinois it's quite different. In the public sector, you can jump unions, collect numerous different pensions, all on the public dime. One guy here worked for a different union for One day....one, and gets a pension for the rest of his life from that union.

When it comes to money, especially public money, corruption follows like flies on a cows tail in the middle of summer in Texas. It's a highway robbery of public funds to build patronage and enrich friends.

You want to do that in the private sector, knock your socks off, who cares, but in the public sector that has to end.

tonyb

steveinaz wrote: »

2016, the return of COMMON SENSE.

I keep hoping Steve, but every cycle I get thoroughly disappointed. I can put up with a lot of idiocy, I'm from Illinois after all, I have no choice. If the next guy can do 2 things in his first 4 years, I'll be glad to put up with the other junk.

What 2 things ?

Fix the immigration problem for good, anchor baby problem, and finally build a formidable wall and enforce it.

Build our military back up and take care of our vets finally with the respect they deserve. Stop using the military as a social experiment also.

That's the only 2 things I wish for the next guy/gal to do in their first 4 years. That would make huge headway in restoring our faith in this country.

markmarc

Tony, myself and the overwhelming majority of public school teachers would love to see the local union and NEA reduce campaign funding by75% at least. That money is doing very little good in comparison to the various Koch-backed groups. I believe the money should be split between funding free training seminars and hands-on learning in the classroom. For the political side run commercials showing good and innovative methods that work.

As for educational competition, there is plenty of truth, parochial and other religious-based schools have shown that to be true, as well as non-religious private schools for decades. What they all have in common is that they are NON-profit, and they must follow state standards.

Districts across the country have moved, either on their own or by state law to open enrollment whereby parents can pick the school that best fits their child's needs. That has done tremendous good IMHO of raising performance without crippling finances of public schools.

The newest alternative school group, charters have split into two groups, local non-profit run in conjunction with school boards. The other, for-profit run by business interests with the bottom line being profit. The results are mixed, the non-profit locally run are in far better shape. The students achieve at a higher level. The for profits are struggling to say the least. Some is due to keeping the bottom good from hiring the least qualified. Others (Ohio especially) are mired in political corruption. The results with few exceptions are lower performance, high turnover (both staff and students), and budgetary woes. Profit has zero place in a school.

WLDock

DSkip wrote: »

This has gotten way off topic.

This started off with some great discussion but I got lost the last page and a half.

Anyway, I'm in the same boat as many here. Both my kids are struggling with math and sometimes I have a hard time helping them. Many times I'm not sure what methods they are being taught and books are not used in many cases. What the heck?
I'm not used to not having a book to go to but I guess online resources like the Khan Academy are the new norm.

maximillian

tonyb wrote: »

Home schooling is not an option when the majority of folks both work. Private school is not an option either because it's too expensive. This is where the strength of our economy comes into play and the availability of good jobs along with our immigration problem. I'll say it again....everything runs hand in hand. Remember....50% of the working general public makes less than 30k a year, so a couple grand even for private school is going to be out. 33% of those making 75k a year live paycheck to paycheck.

If 50% of the general public pulls their kids and uses homeschool or private school then the educators will notice. If 10% of the current families do this then they will still notice.

You don't have to be rich to live a lifestyle where one parent stays home. My wife has been a stay at home mom ever since I made $45k a year. That's when we had our first child. Granted, it's over the 30k number you mention above, but it was just below middle class back in the day. And again, I know parents that home schools their single school age child and they are both nurses. Granted their child is older so the child can work on assignments alone and need a little less coaching.

How many people start out making 75k a year? Not many. So instead of getting a bigger house, nicer car, more vacations, etc., families could send their kids to private school. The first school we sent them to (in central NY) was $4K first child, $3K second child per year. Agree this isn't cheap, but it is not out of reach of most families making over $60k/yr.

Both are do-able. It's a matter of priorities. That's really the issue. If 50% of the middle class families out there got out and protested/voted against common core then it would end today. But you can't get even that many people to vote in a general election. People either don't know or don't care.

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Both are do-able. It's a matter of priorities. That's really the issue. If 50% of the middle class families out there got out and protested/voted against common core then it would end today. But you can't get even that many people to vote in a general election. People either don't know or don't care.

True, mainly because both parents have to go to work to make ends meet rather than standing in a protest line. The ones you see....are usually paid to do so and given a script to spout.

30-40 years ago, your assumptions were correct. Parents did do what they had to and had their priorities in check.....not today. Which circles back to my point on culture also playing into this.

Profits having zero place in schools ? Eh...yes and no. You certainly have to stay within a budget, we don't have unlimited funding. Appropriation of those funds is another story.

Is it not desirable to have as many choices as possible....in anything we do ? Is it not desirable to have competition to bring about innovation and keep prices/costs in check ? Is it not desirable to have a voice in the process, a voice in what exactly your kids are being taught, or not taught ? Is it not desirable to have the focus on the childs learning above all else ?

If so, the current system fails on all fronts, and that's progress ?

steveinaz

Common Core is SO typical of what goes on in government all the time. I know, I'm a 33yr Dept of defense fed employee. They are always busy fixing what isn't broke, and totally ignoring the (important) stuff that is broke. It's all about building little "empires" in Fed service, that make dime-a-dozen GS-15's feel more important than they are. They create these "problems" so they can then swoop in and fix them; in an attempt to appear to be irreplaceable. Ask ANY federal worker if I'm off-point in that observation. I have tried to get the warehouse and associated property account in compliance with regulation for 13 years, and I get nothing but resistance from upper management. After 15yrs of active-duty Army, it's often hard for me to hold my tongue, and it has gotten me in deep a few times with incompetent so-called "supervisors" that I can run circles around, blindfolded when it comes to logistical management, and project development/implemenation.

Maybe, just maybe we should be focusing on increasing graduation rates FIRST, THEN look at changing (improving) the standards/methods. But there I go again, using COMMON SENSE, an act punishable in this backwards nation we have right now.

How much more failure do people need to witness before they come out of their denial? Does a safe need to fall on your head? Do our children/grandchildrens future need to be totally screwed because people can't simply admit when their wrong?

Gatecrasher

I think you guys have been watching too much Faux New and listening to too much Rush Limpbaugh.
lol

cnh

I don't really see where this thread is going at this point!

Let's step back. The Chinese have EXTREME standardization of education from the center down and they're kicking our AXXes in math and science! So that argument is out the window. There is no substance to the idea that a nation can't regulate curriculum at least in NON-POLITICAL subjects!

Second, there is a WEALTH of educational theory and experimentation in our own history! Most of which is either not known to the majority here or not addressed by those deciding matters. (Even those of us at the university level "experiment" with the how and why of teaching in the classroom).

Third, at least in the hard sciences and math, it is pretty EASY to agree what standards should be, we only get our political panties in a bunch when things like American History, Gov't, Literature, etc. are passed through a "collective" Federal sieve.

Fourth, the U.S. still has the BEST colleges and universities in the WORLD regardless of how much anti-intellectual sentiment and outrage is vented at them. Most of that venting is vacuous. And a lot of the politicians doing the venting, themselves, have Ivy League degrees? Really? So you use the system to catapult you into a career in politics and then bad mouth it, when it's served YOUR purpose? Well, at least you know what hypocrisy means! And you DO NOT hide that degree(s)?

Fifth, of course family, parents, home life, economic opportunity and STABILITY are all factors in a society that has socio-economic STRATIFICATION! Individual, exceptional, examples do not ERASE the overall statistics, they are the exception not the rule.

Sixth, as mentioned above. If you live in an affluent area your schools are probably pretty good! If you don't, good LUCK!

Home schooling! How many parents have the requisite skills to cover a general curriculum? Not many! But many "think" they do? (I have one of the best educations money can buy and I'd be hard pressed to teach every subject to my children). And as Tony says, WHO HAS THE TIME! We DO have DAY jobs!

Personally, I pity our teachers. So many hurdles and hardships, so little support and understanding for them. So much hate and prejudice against their benefits, unions, etc. Really? The majority of these individuals are horribly undervalued and underpaid and yet we expect them to perform as well or better than our CEOs, Hedge fund boys and girls, Entrepreneurs...who make their pay seem like chump change, silly dollars!

This nation does NOT know who to value! We value $$$$ but have no respect for those who serve and educate the people! And so a nation declines because its values are "superficial"! Let's admit it! We don't value the people who "matter" but give ourselves up to various paper (green paper, that is) gods and idols.

steveinaz

Gatecrasher wrote: »

I think you guys have been watching too much Faux New and listening to too much Rush Limpbaugh.
lol

Are you insinuating that I don't have the intelligence/experience to form opinions and ideas on my own?

PSOVLSK

DSkip wrote: »

It does frustrate me that a kindergarten teacher makes the same salary as me.

You couldn't pay me enough to teach Kindergarten all day. I've often said Kindergarten teachers should make MORE than other elementary teachers

George Grand

The whole world is laughing at US? I return the favor every time I think about the plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and electrical systems you run into when you're not in the good ole...

We got it made here.

BlueFox

Ever wonder why some people think, and act, as if they know everything? No matter the subject, some people can solve any issue; whether political, economic, or scientific.

This explains it. Synopsis: The not so bright think they know everything. The bright realize they do not know everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4Y5ia2CEt5c

PSOVLSK

BlueFox wrote: »

Ever wonder why some people think, and act, as if they know everything? No matter the subject, some people can solve any issue; whether political, economic, or scientific.

This explains it. Synopsis: The not so bright think they know everything. The bright realize they do not know everything.

I wasn't able to watch the video, but it reminds of the people who say, "It was like that for me and I turned out okay." To some of those people I want to say, "Eh, no, you didn't." LOL

Skip, I knew what you meant, just messing with ya. I actually meant to have a smiley face, but I got a wink instead.

smglbrth

It still all comes down to adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. No matter how one tends to come up with the hundreds of different ways of doing it, this is what it boils down to. Why complicate the obvious and simplify the momentous?

What really gets my goat is history, or the lack of it in the U.S. Remember in the news years ago about "what is the Statue of Liberty made out of?". The book said bronze, duh, it's copper! I don't claim to be a smart man by any means but even I knew that when I heard the question...

BlueFox

PSOVLSK wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

Ever wonder why some people think, and act, as if they know everything? No matter the subject, some people can solve any issue; whether political, economic, or scientific.

This explains it. Synopsis: The not so bright think they know everything. The bright realize they do not know everything.

I wasn't able to watch the video, but it reminds of the people who say, "It was like that for me and I turned out okay." To some of those people I want to say, "Eh, no, you didn't." LOL

Yes. I thought it was appropriate for a thread about education, critical thinking, etc. We all fall into the know everything category once in a while. The key is being able to recognize we just might be wrong.

BlueFox

PSOVLSK wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

Ever wonder why some people think, and act, as if they know everything? No matter the subject, some people can solve any issue; whether political, economic, or scientific.

This explains it. Synopsis: The not so bright think they know everything. The bright realize they do not know everything.

I wasn't able to watch the video, but it reminds of the people who say, "It was like that for me and I turned out okay." To some of those people I want to say, "Eh, no, you didn't." LOL

Apparently, my cut and paste skills aren't as good as I thought they were.

Let's try this link.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5ia2CEt5c&feature=player_embedded

StevieB

westmassguy wrote: »

This has turned out to be a great thread. One thing that has not been brought up, to my knowledge, is the Constitution. That pesky little document our framers created to LIMIT the powers of the central government. If it's not in the Constitution, it falls to the States. Education is nowhere to be found in that document. There should be no "Common Core", No "No Child Left Behind", or Department of Education for that matter.
The Federal Government gets around these limits by waving a carrot. We'll give you X number of dollars towards your Public Educational Systems, but, and there's always a but, you must follow these guidelines, programs or methods. It's pervasive and insidious.

Agree 100%. Got my kid out of govt school after 2nd grade and sorry but the feds have absolutely no business setting education standards. If you have any doubts...usdebtclock.org/

deronb1

Skip, you gotta pace yourself bro. You'll burn out, trust me.