Jim Salk gives Emotiva as an amp recommendation
Comments
-
nooshinjohn wrote: »I trust you realize that, given the topic of this thread and my preference for other brands, that my post was meant to be taken as a joke, right?
Thanks for the clarification. -
The article is in the September 2013 issue of the absolute sound, and the page in reference is 104, last paragraph, bottom left. Anyway, the original post mischaracterized what it says. This is the what was said.
"What you ultimately think of this speaker will be a strong function of the partnering power amp, the safest bet being an amp with a high dampening factor. When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Alstine's designs, and the BAT VK600. To that list I can safety add the expensive Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks, and the affordable PrimaLuna Dialogue integrated amp operated in triode mode with a pair of KT120."Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Given that the review found the speakers to be somewhat subdued in the high frequencies, and based on my own experience with Emotiva amps, the recommendation on the XPA-2 seems like it's a good one for an inexpensive amp. I think it's safe to say that Jim Salk knows something, but not that he was saying the XPA-2 was the equal of any of the other amps he mentioned.
-
Habanero Monk wrote: »
You may be right, you may not be about what people drive their speakers with. I don't agree with your 'wrong wrong'. I'm willing to bet there are some Revel Salon/Salon2 or KEF's in the 20-30K range being driven with an XPA-2. And there is nothing stopping a well received XLS1500 from driving it either.
Of course, I can't know every 30K or higher priced speakers owners on the planet. I don't own 30K speakers but I know friends and people who own 30K or more speakers never uses any electronics less than the cost of the speakers in their chain.
I understand there is a group of weirdo (a rarity) exists who thinks using subpar electronics at bargain price for their highly priced speakers is OK.
I know one other thing - Crown Amps are OK to use for the subwoofers but I know how they sounds driving a pair of nice speakers. If you consider you falls in that group, I guess the grass is greener on your side so more power to you.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I am fairly sure that if I could afford $30k speakers I would not be driving them with a $400 amp. Emotiva or a pro amp would not be my rack.--Gary--
Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out. -
The speakers in the review are Fried Audio Towers and have an MSRP of $2,995 a pair. An Emotiva amp wouldn't be out of place for many buyers of speakers in that price range, and they are 4 ohm nominal so a separate amp is almost a requirement. Absolute Sound reviewers do tend to have very expensive gear for their speaker reviews though, and they do still tend to do all their reviews with classical music and sometimes jazz as their main points of reference.
-
Of course, I can't know every 30K or higher priced speakers owners on the planet. I don't own 30K speakers but I know friends and people who own 30K or more speakers never uses any electronics less than the cost of the speakers in their chain.
I understand there is a group of weirdo (a rarity) exists who thinks using subpar electronics at bargain price for their highly priced speakers is OK.
I know one other thing - Crown Amps are OK to use for the subwoofers but I know how they sounds driving a pair of nice speakers. If you consider you falls in that group, I guess the grass is greener on your side so more power to you.
I know that 'by the numbers' you could certainly drive some Salon 2 speakers with a $400 amp. Would a $400 Carver, Adcom, Parasound be out of the question? Now whether in a SBT scenario that would prove the weak link is another matter. One is objective, the other subjective.
I have no illusions about my current setup. I have a few speaker upgrade cycles before my Yamaha amp would need upgraded. -
Hopefully Carotiva's new amps combine the best of both brands to produce something that actually sounds good and has a good soundstage.
Ha.....you emo hater.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
pearsall001 wrote: »There's a nice article in the latest TAS magazine about how the Freid speaker company went to Jim Salk for the R&D of a speaker they wanted developed. It turned out to be a very successful project. When asked what amps he recommended Jim gave the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Van Alstine's designs and the BAT VK600 as great choices. The author of the article also included the Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks & the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium int. amp operated in triode mode w/ a pair of KR120. Interesting that Jim includes the Emo as one of his choices in the same company of the other fine amps. He must know something.The article is in the September 2013 issue of the absolute sound, and the page in reference is 104, last paragraph, bottom left. Anyway, the original post mischaracterized what it says. This is the what was said.
"What you ultimately think of this speaker will be a strong function of the partnering power amp, the safest bet being an amp with a high dampening factor. When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Alstine's designs, and the BAT VK600. To that list I can safety add the expensive Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks, and the affordable PrimaLuna Dialogue integrated amp operated in triode mode with a pair of KT120."
Nice omission. :rolleyes:Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Thanks for the clarification.
No problem there Monk.... Just to clarify, I truly and honestly could care less what amp you or anybody else chooses to drive their speakers, and I don't care whatsoever what speakers you choose to listen to either. This is a hobby, not an assembly line, and there are millions of ways to find what's right for you. I will say this however... for me personally, there are a very small percentage of Emo owners that truly need to find a sense of humor in this hobby and lighten up. There is so much to learn and explore in this hobby. Being a one-trick pony and being blindly devoted to a single brand, to the point of being ready to battle anyone over the mere suggestion that something could possibly be better is not at all fun, enjoyable or what this hobby should be all about.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
pearsall001 wrote: »Especially in the Class D arena. Plenty of new & exciting things there. As far as Class A, A/B go it's the same old same old as 40yrs ago. Nothing new but man oh man can one get fleeced with some of their prices. But they sure are purdy.
Basic stereo amplifier design is mature technology, but parts and construction quality is significantly better than what was available 40, 30, 20, and even 10 years ago. Better parts quality, better construction techniques and materials, along with good electrical design, facilitates better rendering of spatial properties and detail than what was available many years ago.
Many of this forum's members have refreshed their 20+ year old SDAs with better quality crossover components, better internal wiring, and extensive vibration abatement treatments which resulted in fantastic improvements in sound quality.nooshinjohn wrote: »Being a one-trick pony and being blindly devoted to a single brand, to the point of being ready to battle anyone over the mere suggestion that something could possibly be better is not at all fun, enjoyable or what this hobby should be all about.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Amps are far more commodity parts than speaker assemblies. We will have to agree to disagree on this one Mike.
There are very competent amps that for $400 can drive a $30K set of speakers just fine. It doesn't work the other way around as ROI is concerned.
I've got a pretty fair amount of seat time with amps ranging from vintage to budget, advanced, to the high end. You'd be surprised how much more resolution/detail/clarity/musicality you get from amps as you go up the chain. At their price I'm impressed with what Emotiva gives the listener. But put it up against a Parasound Halo, SimAudio, etc. at even $3k running a pair of Magnepan 1.7's or Polk LSiM 705's and the differences are readily apparent.
****Jim Salk and his wife are two of the nicest, unassuming people you'll talk to. In the past he has toured the audio shows with Van Alstine amps.***Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
I've got a pretty fair amount of seat time with amps ranging from vintage to budget, advanced, to the high end. You'd be surprised how much more resolution/detail/clarity/musicality you get from amps as you go up the chain. At their price I'm impressed with what Emotiva gives the listener. But put it up against a Parasound Halo, SimAudio, etc. at even $3k running a pair of Magnepan 1.7's or Polk LSiM 705's and the differences are readily apparent.
Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
I'd take a million dollar amp too... And trade it for a house.Main Surround -
Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub
Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Basic stereo amplifier design is mature technology, but parts and construction quality is significantly better than what was available 40, 30, 20, and even 10 years ago. Better parts quality, better construction techniques and materials, along with good electrical design, facilitates better rendering of spatial properties and detail than what was available many years ago.
Many of this forum's members have refreshed their 20+ year old SDAs with better quality crossover components, better internal wiring, and extensive vibration abatement treatments which resulted in fantastic improvements in sound quality.
Since you are an EE. What are your thoughts on taking 400+ components driven at 10V and gettingthem packaged by TI into a single piece of sand and driven with 1.4V?
What do you think that would do for spatial properties and detail. I wonder how many boutique outfits would like to be able to do that. I would like to see the measured tolerance of that ASIC vs discrete components. Just dropping the driving voltage has to mean something. -
I'd take a million dollar amp too... And trade it for a house.
I saw where a guy took a large, red, paperclip an ended up with a house
-
Habanero Monk wrote: »Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
If I was using a million dollar amp you can be sure my speakers would at least cost $100K or more. Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.
Where you're concerned. Well I had that awhile ago. I wasn't shocked. Just humored. -
One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.
Hope springs eternal.......Main Rig-Realistic AM/FM Record player 8 track boasting 4 WPC
Backup Rig-2 CH-Rogue Audio Zeus w/Factory Special Dark Mods,Joule-Electra 300ME Platinum Preamp,OPPO-105 w/Modwright Tube Mod, Auralic Aries G2.1,Polk 2.3TL,3.1TL's,Dreadnought,RTA-15TL's,1C's All Fully Modded,2xRTA-12c's ,Benchmark DAC3 HGC,Synology NAS,VPI Scout w/Dynavector DV-20XH and Rogue Audio Ares Phono Preamp,Sony PCM-R500 DAT,HHB-850 Pro CDR,Tascam CC-222SLMKII Cassette/CDR,MIT S3.3 Shotgun Cables,Shunyata Hyra-8,Shunyata and Triode Labs Power Cords
I’M OFFENDED!!!! -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Where you're concerned. Well I had that awhile ago. I wasn't shocked. Just humored.
Then you either mis-understood the significance of the moment, it was not the moment at all or you are so closed minded in your thinking that it could walk right up to you and beat you senseless and still it would be lost on you, I hope for the first two and not the latter.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Since you are an EE. What are your thoughts on taking 400+ components driven at 10V and gettingthem packaged by TI into a single piece of sand and driven with 1.4V? What do you think that would do for spatial properties and detail. I wonder how many boutique outfits would like to be able to do that. I would like to see the measured tolerance of that ASIC vs discrete components. Just dropping the driving voltage has to mean something.
Discrete designs give a designer a degree of flexibility and quality control that is unavailable with integrated circuits. Even more important than that, the noise figures of IC's are generally not attractive to designers of high quality amplifiers.
Using lower powered chips typically results in more amplifier stages which typically results in more cumulative noise. This is why the best designs from the "boutique outfits" have a very small number of amplifier stages. For high quality amplification, simpler is better. The fewer components the signal has to pass through, the less damage will be done to it.
Integrated circuits are nice if you are trying to reduce size, weight, and cost. If the intent is to do the least amount of harm to an audio signal, then high quality discrete components with a minimal number of amplification stages is the best way to go.Habanero Monk wrote: »I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
You have to be careful about going solely on cost and other people's opinions. Just because a speaker costs $9K and people rave about it does not mean that its design, construction, and sound quality warrant such investment. It may not give you $9K of listening pleasure. The people who rave about the thing might have entirely different listening preferences than yours.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Where you're concerned. Well I had that awhile ago. I wasn't shocked. Just humored.
A closed mind is a terrible thing. I do feel sorry for you, I really do.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
There's a good number of us here that have substantially much more invested in the gear than the speakers and for good reason.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
pearsall001 wrote: »Especially in the Class D arena. Plenty of new & exciting things there. As far as Class A, A/B go it's the same old same old as 40yrs ago. Nothing new but man oh man can one get fleeced with some of their prices. But they sure are purdy.
You obviously haven't listened to any Class A, A/B amps in the past 40 years to make a silly blanket statement like that. It's fine to have your preference, but let's not make silly statements to bolster your opinion. It can make one look foolish and uninformed.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Phil, I obviously can't speak for Jim Salk, but ommitting the full quote is grossly misleading. If there are any of our forum members that can't hear a difference between an XPA-2 and a BAT VK-600 then you will need to improve the rest of your gear, or improve your listening skills. They are NOWHERE near the same level. That's just the way it is. Period.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Maybe you wouldn't mind one others opinion, FWIW. Since this thread was talking amplifiers, I'll assume that's what your referring to.Habanero Monk wrote: »What are your thoughts on taking 400+ components driven at 10V and gettingthem packaged by TI into a single piece of sand and driven with 1.4V?
The amp signal side shouldn't ever have 400+ components! Only if your over into home theatre stuff and want all kinds of gimmicky effects stuff and then that's done with IC's like your wanting. That's not high quality audio territory, more like tons of buttons to impress the unknowing, unhearing masses.
It sounds like your referring to (1.4v) the supply rail and chips. The signal in will often be more than 1.4v and you don't want to drop it down and re-amp it. Not the direction you go with audio.
Just so you know, the typical amp structure is more like a voltage gain stage and then the output current driving stage. Each of those stages should be a handful of components, not hundreds. Also, you throw in one of the variety of specific to the design input circuits which could be another handful of parts. Neither of the two key stages is typically run on low voltage.
About half the amp should be the power supply. That's where quality originates. Little there is done in the IC world and less yet at the low voltages.
Kill it.Habanero Monk wrote: »What do you think that would do for spatial properties and detail.
None.Habanero Monk wrote: »I wonder how many boutique outfits would like to be able to do that.
All the designers know that discrete is the quality route. Big chips are for the gimmickery stuff. Not for audio ampification.Habanero Monk wrote: »I would like to see the measured tolerance of that ASIC vs discrete components. Just dropping the driving voltage has to mean something.
Big packages of chips are for solving munchies, not high quality audio.
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
It really sucks , I have yet to sit down and experience a Emotiva amp or any of their products. Good bad or what have you , I really need to hear one.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Fwiw, I have owned a XPA-5,a B&K 200.2,and a VK500,in that order! They all sounded different in many ways,with a substantial improvement in detail,soundstage, and overall listening pleasure as I moved up the ladder!
I am in no way either on the Emo wagon,or off the Emo wagon! I thought there amp did very well at its price point! However,the more money I spent,(coincidence or not)the better the sound! Next Wednesday,I'll have upped the ladder to a VK600SE! I'm hoping that sounds even better than the previous 3!"Everything I ever did in my life worthwhile I caught hell for" -
Nice omission. :rolleyes:
LOL! Not trying to deceive but In the same breath I don't consider Frank's amps or the mentioned BAT to be on the inexpensive side. It's just too funny when a well respected name in audio dares to mention that an Emo amp as well as the other (more expensive) options is one of his recommendations that all hell breaks loose."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
