Jim Salk gives Emotiva as an amp recommendation

Jhayman

Awesome Thanks for the info now If I could only find something like that in Toronto, Canada..
I'm afraid they would not ship cross border and If they did I would be stuck with a much heartier bill than $100 for shipping..

DarqueKnight wrote: »

This Pass Labs dealer offers 10 day trials:

"Satisfaction Guaranteed - All products from Reno Hi-Fi come with a ten-day, in-home demo so you can be absolutely sure you are happy with your investment in sound."

http://renohifi.com/

A Krell dealer list can be found here: http://www.krellonline.com/buy.html

I have never encountered a high end dealer that did not allow some form of in home trial for amps. They typically keep demos around for this purpose. It is inconceivable that a dealer would expect you to keep an expensive amp that did not suit your needs.


I look forward to your Krell and Pass Labs reviews!

Jhayman

Thanks F1nut I could not remember exactly how much it was but MIT does not even offer it cross border anyways..
If they did I'm sure my cost of $100 would be more accurate.

F1nut wrote: »

Depending on distance and whether FedEx (cheaper) or UPS was used to ship, about $40 to $50 to demo $3300.00 worth of S3.3 cables.

Note: that demo is now closed. A new one is on the horizon.

F1nut

That was actually my decision due to cross border fees not being fair to the person(s) having to pay the cost. If there is enough interest this next time, maybe we can send them around up north for a bit as long as the first person receiving and the last person shipping are willing to foot the extra fees.

WLDock

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I don't think any of the Polk Forum Gurus have a problem with Jim's recommendations. The problem was with some people trying to misrepresent that Jim Salk was implying that Emotiva was in the same performance class as Van Alstine and BAT. Emotiva engages in the same misrepresentation when they say things like this:

"Emotiva’s Reference Series components are a cost-no-object assault on setting the standard for audiophile components - it’s just that Emotiva’s costs are still much less than the competition. Compare to the finest equipment in the world, and you’ll be surprised at the results!"

Source: http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/reference-series

On the web page referenced above, Emotiva is claiming that their amplifiers costing between $1500 to $2000 are "cost-no-object" assaults setting standards for audiophile components, when the truth is, $2000 won't even approach the parts cost of some top of the line audiophile amplifiers.

Some people believe this nonsense that they are getting a "world class", "reference level" audiophile component "comparable to the finest equipment in the world", when in actuality they are only getting a very good entry level component.

Emotiva knows damn well that someone shopping for a $1500 to $2000 amp is not going to go to the trouble of comparing it to the likes of BAT, Krell, Pass Labs, etc.

You bring up a great point that I'm sure has been talked about a million times over at forums like diyaudio.com. How much is the parts cost for a high end amp? Take something like a slightly upgraded BAT VK-600SE that can go from mild to wild from the base model to the fully moded unit on the dollar/performance scale. Compare that to the say....the Emotiva XPR-2:

BAT VK-600SE

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=124155


XPR-2


What are the parts cost of these two amps? Even with custom hand made parts(Caps, transformers, etc) for some high end amps, I thought the cost would only be two or three times more than something like the XPR-2. The DIY guys know that one can build something like some of the Pass Labs DIY desogns for $600 in parts. The components in that BAT SE really get the juices going but I wonder if the parts cost more than $1000-$2000? The BAT costs ~$8000-$11,500. The XPR-2 Cost $1699

I though HIGH END amps were marked up 400-500% because of R&D, Build, Operating, Travel to trade shows, Shipping, Dealer mark-up, etc? Even then, some struggle to make a profit.

Nevertheless, there are many paths one can take in this hobby. I was just reading about a guy that spend $2200 in parts, $8000 total to duplicate a set of $18K B&K 802 REF's towers. Much of the rest of the system in Emotiva:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=198192


...just another path

tonyb

Given your example there my friend, compared to the DIY crowd a few things are missing. One of the biggies...labor cost. Then add overhead such as a building, benefits, taxes, etc. Research and development. Then shipping costs to dealers and of course the cost of warranty work. Lets not forget warehouse space too to store inventory and the costs associated with that. It's simply not an apples to apples comparison by just adding up the sum total of parts used.

That said, I'm pretty sure the mark up between your 2 examples as a percentage probably aren't too far apart. Bottom line, anything with better parts and build quality costs more money, then again, don't we all know this anyway ?

nooshinjohn

Everything you said above Tony, is true. Four times build cost is what is needed for a company to turn a profit, and in the age of O-care and other profit eating regulations, that may have become 5 times cost.

tonyb

True John, but that dives into another topic, which I'd love to discuss.....in another thread.

erniejade

the XPR-2, is it me or does the guts kind of look like a sunfire

BlueFox

Why does Emotiva have their heat sinks backwards, which concentrates the heat into the center of the amp?

erniejade

Looking at the emo site more, the speakers also look like some of the sunfire speakers that were out in the past as well?

F1nut

BlueFox wrote: »

Why does Emotiva have their heat sinks backwards, which concentrates the heat into the center of the amp?

Ha, good question!

DarqueKnight

Jhayman wrote: »

Awesome Thanks for the info now If I could only find something like that in Toronto, Canada..
I'm afraid they would not ship cross border and If they did I would be stuck with a much heartier bill than $100 for shipping..

The Krell link I previously provided shows the following dealer in Toronto:

Altronics Stereo 2000 Inc.
2889 Bloor St. West
Toronto, ON M8X 1B3
(416)-233-8906
www.altronicsstereo2000.com
ronaltronics@hotmail.com

Reno HiFi is the largest Pass Labs dealer in North America. I did not see a dealer listed for Toronto on the Pass Labs website. I know that Reno ships to Canada. Contact Reno or Pass Labs directly to see what your options are for an in home trial: us_sales@passlabs.com.

headrott

BlueFox wrote: »

Why does Emotiva have their heat sinks backwards, which concentrates the heat into the center of the amp?

They are trying to show off their 5 year warranty by overheating their amp "innards"? It's good business practice showing that they stand behind their warranty by designing their amp to destroy itself. LOL! (I jest of course).

Never seen an amp designed that way before this one (that I remember).

SCompRacer

BlueFox wrote: »

Why does Emotiva have their heat sinks backwards, which concentrates the heat into the center of the amp?

Only reasons I can think of is for aesthetics. Cleaner look, no pesky heat sink fins to clean or bite into your arms if lifting at sides. Guessing it doesn’t reject enough heat to be an issue reversed and they are using a vented top cover.

Yet the XPA-2 gen 2 has enclosed heat sinks yet they face outward...

heiney9

BlueFox wrote: »

Why does Emotiva have their heat sinks backwards, which concentrates the heat into the center of the amp?

Because the outputs aren't biased high enough to produce much heat. It's strictly for looks......not for function.

WLDock

tonyb wrote: »

Given your example there my friend, compared to the DIY crowd a few things are missing. One of the biggies...labor cost. Then add overhead such as a building, benefits, taxes, etc. Research and development. Then shipping costs to dealers and of course the cost of warranty work. Lets not forget warehouse space too to store inventory and the costs associated with that. It's simply not an apples to apples comparison by just adding up the sum total of parts used.

That said, I'm pretty sure the mark up between your 2 examples as a percentage probably aren't too far apart. Bottom line, anything with better parts and build quality costs more money, then again, don't we all know this anyway ?

tonyb...we are saying the same thing...my use of "etc." was meant to include all variables.

My point is that EMO stating that their costs to performance is cheaper than a company like BAT really does not mean a whole lot. If their amp has a wild guess cost of $600 in parts and the BAT has $2K in parts...that number does not mean much. It's the rest of it that will determine final costs. If they are offering equal performance for a fraction of the cost then that may mean something. But, only one's ear can determine that....and I'm sure many don't think they can get 100% of the performance of something like the BAT. ...but maybe are content with a certain percentage of the performance at a certain price.

The reference to the DIY guy with the B&W set is that some think the EMO gear is up to the task...maybe Mr. Salk does also in the given price segment?

tonyb

Gotcha

Of course Jim mentioned it as being up to the task, why wouldn't it be ? How well it does that task is subjective and open for discussion but certainly it has enough to power a wide range of speakers.

sucks2beme

Most of us have no problem with EMO gear. Cost vs. performance is pretty good.
But a few of their fans get on our nerves. That's what makes these threads so
awful. And it creates really bad over the top responses to it.
I've had the same problem with gear at other websites. Too many people
don't understand why people pay more for stuff. A quick run over to head-fi's
sound science forum pretty much shows you they aren't applying much science.
They just bash any product they deem too expensive.
I've had a chance to try gear over a lot of price ranges over the years
I've stopped the endless upgrades, but I understand what true high end sounds like.
And each step up the ladder is $$$$$. Not every $$$$ item sounds better, either.
And not every value amp is a giant killer.

heiney9

Diy stuff is rarely the same as the real thing, especially in the case of Pass diy. Nelson lays out the basics but the diy'er is left with a lot if leeway. So that's a poor example in your comparison.

Personal opinion/observation. Pass Labs could charge a lot more $$$ and get it and have the same level of production output. For a boutique brand they are very reasonable $$$.

WLDock

heiney9 wrote: »

Because the outputs aren't biased high enough to produce much heat. It's strictly for looks......not for function.

Your joking right? That is the output heatsink...its going to radiate heat. What am I missing? or maybe you were joking...right?

The tops are vented and heat rises.... of course it was done for a smooth sided look. But this is no different than what many do for multi channel amps. Even BAT has the heatsinks inside the case with a vented top on their VK-6200:

WLDock

heiney9 wrote: »

Diy stuff is rarely the same as the real thing, especially in the case of Pass diy. Nelson lays out the basics but the diy'er is left with a lot if leeway. So that's a poor example in your comparison.

Personal opinion/observation. Pass Labs could charge a lot more $$$ and get it and have the same level of production output. For a boutique brand they are very reasonable $$$.

Come on guys.....no need to protect and defend the "high end" at all costs. We are all saying the same thing. EVERYTHING that goes into designing, selling, and supporting an amp will determine the price. But if one adds up the "RAW" parts...I'm sure it will suprise some that the cost is not as much as one would think...especially for some of the boutigue brands. I'm not saying the EMO or the DIY Pass Labs or whatever will sound the same as the BAT....but they are all labled as "Audiophile" components.

No attacks implied.

DarqueKnight

WLDock wrote: »

Even with custom hand made parts (Caps, transformers, etc) for some high end amps,
I thought the cost would only be two or three times more than something like the XPR-2.

In addition to custom caps and transformers, ultra low noise transistors cost a lot. Another very important "part", which lower cost amplifiers skimp on, is the case itself. A heavy, non resonant case built of aluminum or some other non-magnetic material costs a lot of money.

WLDock wrote: »

The DIY guys know that one can build something like some of the Pass Labs DIY desogns for $600 in parts.

We must keep in mind that Pass Labs is not going to release a DIY design that could come anywhere near the performance of one of their commercial designs.

WLDock wrote: »

The components in that BAT SE really get the juices going but I wonder if the parts cost more than $1000-$2000? The BAT costs ~$8000-$11,500. The XPR-2 Cost $1699.

You mentioned that the parts cost for some of Pass Labs' DIY designs is $600. It should not be a stretch to believe that a commercial design, using much higher quality, and higher cost parts and construction quality (better circuit boards, better case materials, etc.) would have a parts cost several multiples of that.

WLDock wrote: »

Nevertheless, there are many paths one can take in this hobby. I was just reading about a guy that spend $2200 in parts, $8000 total to duplicate a set of $18K B&K 802 REF's towers. Much of the rest of the system in Emotiva:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=198192

Thank you for the thread link. That was an awesome project! However, I do not think it is anywhere near accurate to say that he "duplicated" a set of $18K B&K 802D REF's towers. He duplicated the look of the 802D, but not their performance. For one thing, even though he purchased 802D drivers and crossovers from B&W, he used MDF for the cabinets. B&W uses Marlan, a composite material for the teardrop midrange enclosure, and they use cabinet walls made of 20 layers of formed beech hardwood. A short video on the 802Ds manufacturing process is here: http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/800_Series_Diamond

In post #123, the builder states:

"Well, without the drivers and crossovers, i spent about $1200. The drivers and crossovers will drive it up close to about $9000."

The builder's YouTube video states that he spent 450 hours of labor over 6 months: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re7rfVk-bHA.

The builder works at a fabrication facility and had access to CNC machining tools and other tools required to cut, assemble, and finish the cabinets. The builder's $9000 total cost does not figure in the cost of the builder's highly skilled labor, nor does it figure in the production costs of precision machining and other tools. If the builder paid himself a very modest rate of $20/hour for his skilled machine and assembly labor, that would add another $9000 to the real cost of the project. I have no way of knowing what the actual cost of the tools and shop machine time cost, but I think $2000 over a period of 6 months is not excessive, and most probably way under the actual cost. He said he had $400 in painting costs alone.

When we consider the builder's actual costs we arrive at:

Cabinet materials: $1200
Drivers and Xovers: $7800
Labor: $9000
Shop Costs: $2000
Total $20000

The builder's real costs were $2000 more than the retail cost of the actual 802Ds, and, although he ended up with a beautiful set of speakers that looked like the 802Ds, they were not the equivalent of the 802Ds because the cabinets were made of inferior materials.

Also, to my knowledge, there were no measurements taken to compare the performance of the knockoffs to the performance of the real thing. We really don't know how close the builder came to the 802D's performance. Since speaker cabinets, crossovers and drivers are all part of an integrated whole, we could reasonably expect that cabinets of inferior materials would significantly diminish performance. I certainly would not invest that kind of money without some reasonable assurance, backed by measurements, that I came close to the performance of the real thing.

The total parts cost for my SDA SRS 1.2TL modifications was $7,455. There was also 153 hours of assembly time, which, at the modest rate of $20/hour, would amount to an additional $3,060. There were also many hours of research, design, and testing. Designing the crossover circuit boards took 29 hours, then there was an additional 16 hours spent evaluating board manufacturers. Every modification I made improved the audible and measurable performance of the speaker.

DarqueKnight

WLDock wrote: »

Come on guys.....no need to protect and defend the "high end" at all costs.

I have never encountered a true audiophile that defended abusive high end audio pricing practices. Most of us are cheapskates who like getting the most performance for the least amount of $$$ outlay. That is why we become experts at tracking down "deals" in used and dealer demo equipment. That is why some of us become experts at modifying equipment. All of us progressed from entry level equipment to more advanced, high end equipment. One of the rare highlights of our lives is running across a true "giant killer" component that offers performance comparable to components multiples of its price.

Don't confuse us with the ignorant people, the false "audiophiles", who go to a high end dealer, plop down their AMEX card and say "gimme the best you've got", then get online bragging about their "expensive" high end audio system.

SCompRacer

From a Pass First Watt review at 6moons. I added bold text.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firs****t12/1.html

May 19, 2010: "I'm in the process of spending six digits on a small run of special Jfet power amplifiers, my own version of the 'SI' Vfets you may recall from the Yamaha and Sony efforts of the 70s and related to the Digital Do Main product showcased recently on your site. Remarkable parts. Their curves look like triodes, with an output conductance on the order of 4 to 8Ω.

Jhayman

Thanks for the info I would Love to get in on the program if there is enough interest and have no issue with extra cost if I'm last or first..

F1nut wrote: »

That was actually my decision due to cross border fees not being fair to the person(s) having to pay the cost. If there is enough interest this next time, maybe we can send them around up north for a bit as long as the first person receiving and the last person shipping are willing to foot the extra fees.

heiney9

SCompRacer wrote: »

From a Pass First Watt review at 6moons. I added bold text.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firs****t12/1.html

Yep, I posted that article when it first came out. A bit of an inside look at idea to full blown production. It ain't cheap for any designer to push the envelope.

Jhayman

Thanks Darqueknight, I did notice the Krell link in Toronto as for Reno I will have to check to see if they ship for demo but I doubt it..
Also a huge city like Toronto, why are there so few high end shops, it would be nice to have the option of more than one or two stores to choose from no competition there, lol

DarqueKnight wrote: »

The Krell link I previously provided shows the following dealer in Toronto:

Altronics Stereo 2000 Inc.
2889 Bloor St. West
Toronto, ON M8X 1B3
(416)-233-8906
www.altronicsstereo2000.com
ronaltronics@hotmail.com

Reno HiFi is the largest Pass Labs dealer in North America. I did not see a dealer listed for Toronto on the Pass Labs website. I know that Reno ships to Canada. Contact Reno or Pass Labs directly to see what your options are for an in home trial: us_sales@passlabs.com.

DarqueKnight

WLDock wrote: »

But if one adds up the "RAW" parts...I'm sure it will suprise some that the cost is not as much as one would think...especially for some of the boutigue brands.

You assume that everyone, from entry level to boutique brand, is using the same parts quality. I assure you they are not.

The Clarity Caps used in my Pass Labs XP-30 preamp are custom designs made for Pass Labs. I'm sure they could have grabbed off the shelf caps, but those caps would not have met their design performance criteria.

The active devices are matched pairs of now-discontinued ultra low noise Toshiba JFETs and MOSFETs; however, Pass Labs says it has purchased enough of these parts to support production of the new gain stage for the next 10 years.

Even when common commodity electronic parts are used, the hand measuring and matching procedures of some high end companies drives up the actual costs. For example, let's say a certain power transistor costs $5 and 50 are bought. After measuring and matching, only 10 of the 50 meet design specs. That means the real cost of those 10 transistors is $25 rather than $5. It is the same as when I buy a $20 box of 10 saxophone reeds and only two meet my needs. I can't send the other 8 back. My real cost is $10 per reed rather than $2.

WLDock wrote: »

I'm not saying the EMO or the DIY Pass Labs or whatever will sound the same as the BAT....but they are all labled as "Audiophile" components.

I hope we can agree that labels are cheap and are not always descriptive of quality. There are "high end" companies that sell overpriced, over promised, over-labeled goods. They are soon found out and are roundly ridiculed. Most of them go out of business. Bose's spectacular marketing prowess has kept them in business, but you never see a knowledgeable and experienced audiophile raving about Bose gear, let alone owning it.

SCompRacer

An interesting long running part II thread at diyaudio about the infamous John Curl Blowtorch preamp. I don't think there was a part or process that was not srutinized in the entire design. Curl participates in this.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/146693-john-curls-blowtorch-preamplifier-part-ii.html

Point is some folks pursue the best designs ignoring a price point despite hearing who needs it. I can't afford it but respect the process. Some of that does trickle down to the things we can afford.

brgman

OYE!
Next we are going to hear how white van speakers are just as good as Polk's.
"They said they are audiophile speakers when the guy in the van sold them to me."