Jim Salk gives Emotiva as an amp recommendation
Comments
-
pearsall001 wrote: »That pretty much covers it. But I'll try this one more time for all the folks that like to add their own versions. Here is the quote " When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Van Alstines's designs, and the BAT VK600" end of quote.
Since I left out the word "inexpensive" which I honestly thought was no biggee because the way it's written it pretty much lumps them into the same category. Now if Jim had said that he recommends the inexpensive Emotiva XPA-2 along with more expensive amps, like some of the Frank Van Alstine models and the BAT VK600 then that would offer more clarification. I just though it was nice that a well respected audio guru felt that the Emo was up to the task to compliment his new speaker, nothing more, nothing less. But damn around here once someone mentions anything positive about an Emo product all hell breaks loose.
Emotiva XPA 2, 300 watts per channel, $899
Van Alstine FET Valve 600R, 300 watts per channel, $3,499
BAT VK600, 300 watts per channel, $6,399
Since TAS is an audiophile publication, I think it is safe to assume that the general readership would know, even without checking prices, that Salk did not mean to suggest that the Emotiva was comparable to any of the Van Alstine or BAT amplifiers. There was no clarification needed. Definitely, when we compare the prices of comparably powered Emotiva, Van Alstine and BAT power amplifiers, we see that they are aimed at very different market segments. The Van Alstine costs nearly 4x the price of the Emotiva. The BAT costs nearly 2X the price of the Van Alstine and over 7X the cost of the Emotiva.
When the prices of the three amps are considered, the following comment does not make sense to me:pearsall001 wrote:Interesting that Jim includes the Emo as one of his choices in the same company of the other fine amps. He must know something.
What exactly, must Jim know?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Emotiva XPA 2, 300 watts per channel, $899
What exactly, must Jim know?
After a pair of Salk speakers, most customers have enough budget left for the Emotiva amp?
I think Mr. Salk is making a sales pitch instead of recommending Emotiva. You can afford his speakers if you use Emotiva.
Or he might just be making a blanketed sales pitch to cover the customers from all trades of life.
He might have encountered some people who believes speakers are so important that they will spend 30K on it and $400 for the amp.
It seems Mr. Salk got them covered too by mentioning Emotiva.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
After a pair of Salk speakers, most customers have enough budget left for the Emotiva amp?
I think Mr. Salk is making a sales pitch instead of recommending Emotiva. You can afford his speakers if you use Emotiva.
Or he might just be making a blanketed sales pitch to cover the customers from all trades of life.
He might have encountered some people who believes speakers are so important that they will spend 30K on it and $400 for the amp.
It seems Mr. Salk got them covered too by mentioning Emotiva.
I like all those explanations.:cool:Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
After a pair of Salk speakers, most customers have enough budget left for the Emotiva amp?
I think Mr. Salk is making a sales pitch instead of recommending Emotiva. You can afford his speakers if you use Emotiva.
Or he might just be making a blanketed sales pitch to cover the customers from all trades of life.
He might have encountered some people who believes speakers are so important that they will spend 30K on it and $400 for the amp.
It seems Mr. Salk got them covered too by mentioning Emotiva.
The speakers in the review cost $2995.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
darqueknight wrote: »emotiva xpa 2, 300 watts per channel, $899
van alstine fet valve 600r, 300 watts per channel, $3,499
bat vk600, 300 watts per channel, $6,399
since tas is an audiophile publication, i think it is safe to assume that the general readership would know, even without checking prices, that salk did not mean to suggest that the emotiva was comparable to any of the van alstine or bat amplifiers. There was no clarification needed. Definitely, when we compare the prices of comparably powered emotiva, van alstine and bat power amplifiers, we see that they are aimed at very different market segments. The van alstine costs nearly 4x the price of the emotiva. The bat costs nearly 2x the price of the van alstine and over 7x the cost of the emotiva.
When the prices of the three amps are considered, the following comment does not make sense to me:
What exactly, must jim know?
^^^^^^^^this!!^^^^^^^^
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Emotiva XPA 2, 300 watts per cha
nnel, $899
Van Alstine FET Valve 600R, 300 watts per channel, $3,499
BAT VK600, 300 watts per channel, $6,399
Since TAS is an audiophile publication, I think it is safe to assume that the general readership would know, even without checking prices, that Salk did not mean to suggest that the Emotiva was comparable to any of the Van Alstine or BAT amplifiers. There was no clarification needed. Definitely, when we compare the prices of comparably powered Emotiva, Van Alstine and BAT power amplifiers, we see that they are aimed at very different market segments. The Van Alstine costs nearly 4x the price of the Emotiva. The BAT costs nearly 2X the price of the Van Alstine and over 7X the cost of the Emotiva.
When the prices of the three amps are considered, the following comment does not make sense to me:
What exactly, must Jim know?
Never take anything for granted or assume anything."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
nooshinjohn wrote: »This is another red herring statement... nobody here CARES if something positive is said here about Emo. What we care about are all the Emoette fanbois jumping in and declaring victory over the much more experienced members of the forum. Seriously... some of you guys operate with the same mindset as the MB in Egypt. If I were to say that "Emotiva builds what appears to be solid gear" nobody here would jump on that.
If, however, I were to say that "Emotiva builds solid gear FOR THE PRICE, but that I don't care to own it because I like my gear better"... then perhaps I recommend something other than Emo to somebody... well that is brand-bashing in the eyes of Emoettes the world over, and if my address were public knowledge, I would need to join a witness protection program.
The gear is not the problem... I hope that clarifies things for you.
Nice try at a cover up."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Interesting that we seem to have circled around to agreeing that Salk was providing different amp options based on cost...
Since you know the first response in this thread was this..... :biggrin:EndersShadow wrote: »Could be, also could be he was providing amps at different price points so as to give folks options to meet their budget needs. That and if its for the speaker manufacture to test with, lots of folks have Emotiva gear, or gear in that price point, so seeing how their speakers sounded on High end amps and entry level would be something they want to test IMHO. Not arguing one way or the other."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I'd have no issue recommending Emotiva depending on the buyer and his/her guidelines.
If the guidlines involve sound quality and not just how it physically looks in ad slicks, then I'd keep right on looking. Nothing worthwhile in Emoland IMHO. Once you've heard their system in comparison, then you're done.
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Emotiva XPA 2, 300 watts per channel, $899
Van Alstine FET Valve 600R, 300 watts per channel, $3,499
BAT VK600, 300 watts per channel, $6,399
Since TAS is an audiophile publication, I think it is safe to assume that the general readership would know, even without checking prices, that Salk did not mean to suggest that the Emotiva was comparable to any of the Van Alstine or BAT amplifiers. There was no clarification needed. Definitely, when we compare the prices of comparably powered Emotiva, Van Alstine and BAT power amplifiers, we see that they are aimed at very different market segments. The Van Alstine costs nearly 4x the price of the Emotiva. The BAT costs nearly 2X the price of the Van Alstine and over 7X the cost of the Emotiva.
When the prices of the three amps are considered, the following comment does not make sense to me:
What exactly, must Jim know?
Call him up and ask? -
EndersShadow wrote: »Interesting that we seem to have circled around to agreeing that Salk was providing different amp options based on cost...
Since you know the first response in this thread was this..... :biggrin:
Ya think he would mention any amp/s that make his speakers sound like drek? -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Ya think he would mention any amp/s that make his speakers sound like drek?
Confused why you quoted me and posted that.
My post makes no mention of "good" or "bad" when discussing amps.
I believe that amps have a unique sonic signature which is what I was referring to. Also most higher end amps tend to have a better sound signature IMHO.
But again I was simply posting he listed 3 options for folks on a budget more than likely off the top of his head. Doesn't mean he has or hasn't heard emotiva amps, he simply threw out their name as a entry level option."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
EndersShadow wrote: »Confused why you quoted me and posted that.
My post makes no mention of "good" or "bad" when discussing amps.
I believe that amps have a unique sonic signature which is what I was referring to. Also most higher end amps tend to have a better sound signature IMHO.
But again I was simply posting he listed 3 options for folks on a budget more than likely off the top of his head. Doesn't mean he has or hasn't heard emotiva amps, he simply threw out their name as a entry level option.
Ok. How about the possibility that he has heard all the amps he recommended. There is also the possibility he has heard others of varying costs and didn't mention them for one reason or another. Again Mr. Salk didn't mention budget. He mentioned amps. He didn't make any observations about their sound signature. Just ones that get the job done.
What you didn't get about my reply to you is your are assuming that he is basing recommendations on cost. We do not know that. That bias needs be removed from the conversation. We don't know what was in his mind when he made the recommendation. I hope that clears up the 'why' when I replied to you. -
pearsall001 wrote: »Nice try at a cover up.
No cover up needed on that. The forum is littered with closed threads that demonstrate exactly what I pointed out. Emo threads go off the rails not because someone disparaged the brand, but because an Emoette goes bonkers at the mere suggestion that there is better gear out there. It also explains why nobody ever gets banned for brand-bashing....because it does not happen.
JFK was killed by space aliens however, over his plans to place a man on the moon... Now THAT is a cover-up!:cheesygrin::cheesygrin:The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Ok. How about the possibility that he has heard all the amps he recommended. There is also the possibility he has heard others of varying costs and didn't mention them for one reason or another. Again Mr. Salk didn't mention budget. He mentioned amps. He didn't make any observations about their sound signature. Just ones that get the job done.
What you didn't get about my reply to you is your are assuming that he is basing recommendations on cost. We do not know that. That bias needs be removed from the conversation. We don't know what was in his mind when he made the recommendation. I hope that clears up the 'why' when I replied to you.
Monk, "getting the job done" is the bare minimum requirements for what an amp does. That is, it amplifies a signal. You are still either completely disregarding or completely not seeing that an amp can also amplify a signal to produce higher or lower quality audio. A higher quality amp will produce a better soundstage, have higher transparency, higher detail, better imaging, and finally something that is more subjective; that being having a warmer, neutral, or bright sound signature. You are still trying to imply that when Jim Salk mentioned all the amps he did, he meant that they were all equal to each other in terms of the qualities above, which again leads us back to my previous statement:Phil, I obviously can't speak for Jim Salk, but ommitting the full quote is grossly misleading. If there are any of our forum members that can't hear a difference between an XPA-2 and a BAT VK-600 then you will need to improve the rest of your gear, or improve your listening skills. They are NOWHERE near the same level. That's just the way it is. Period.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Monk, "getting the job done" is the bare minimum requirements for what an amp does. That is, it amplifies a signal. You are still either completely disregarding or completely not seeing that an amp can also amplify a signal to produce higher or lower quality audio. A higher quality amp will produce a better soundstage, have higher transparency, higher detail, better imaging, and finally something that is more subjective; that being having a warmer, neutral, or bright sound signature. You are still trying to imply that when Jim Salk mentioned all the amps he did, he meant that they were all equal to each other in terms of the qualities above, which again leads us back to my previous statement:
I'm not saying anything of the sort. What I did say was ask Mr. Salk. I also maintain that he listed a series of amps that get the job done. No more no less. I also said that I think the emphasis on 'inexpensive' was the writer of the piece in question.
So I find myself asking why a Parasound Halo21 at $2200 didn't get mentioned, or a Rotel RB-1582 ~$1500 (may be it doesn't do 4 ohm) or Anthem, or Monarchy, or... I'm sure all these amps 'will get the job done'. It's also 'subjective'. -
Monk will only be happy if the man himself comments, much like he needed a Polk engineer to confirm the LSi9 is indeed a bookie.
Much like you still don't realize there is a class of speakers referred to as stand mount. Be careful who's ignorance you are attempting to point out. BSC anyone?
I still welcome commentary from any source of the product in question. Whether Salk or some Polk Engineers. I'm certainly not above sitting down, shutting up, and listening to them. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »So I find myself asking why a Parasound Halo21 at $2200 didn't get mentioned, or a Rotel RB-1582 ~$1500 (may be it doesn't do 4 ohm) or Anthem, or Monarchy, or... I'm sure all these amps 'will get the job done'. It's also 'subjective'.
You didn't really expect the man to go down the laundry list of amps did you ? You guys are really making a mountain out of a mole hill on this.
Phil, you know I love ya bro, but you indeed stirred that pot.
In all things in life, their exists different levels of quality and build, and yes....sound, to accommodate anyone's wallet or ears. Whats so frickin' hard to understand about that ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Much like you still don't realize there is a class of speakers referred to as stand mount. Be careful who's ignorance you are attempting to point out. BSC anyone?
I still welcome commentary from any source of the product in question. Whether Salk or some Polk Engineers. I'm certainly not above sitting down, shutting up, and listening to them.
I already pointed out that Polk calls the LSi 9's and LSiM 703's bookshelf speakers in ALL of their product information. So, now you can sit down and shut up.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Habanero Monk wrote: »I'm not saying anything of the sort. What I did say was ask Mr. Salk. I also maintain that he listed a series of amps that get the job done. No more no less. I also said that I think the emphasis on 'inexpensive' was the writer of the piece in question.
So I find myself asking why a Parasound Halo21 at $2200 didn't get mentioned, or a Rotel RB-1582 ~$1500 (may be it doesn't do 4 ohm) or Anthem, or Monarchy, or... I'm sure all these amps 'will get the job done'. It's also 'subjective'.
Ah, so you do agree that when he mentioned the XPA-2, Jim Salk was listing it as a minimim level of "getting the job done" compared to the BAT VK-600 which excels at "getting the job done". Great! Let's close the thread. Also, there is no emphasis on 'inexpensive' implied. It is a fact that the XPA-2 is less expensive than the BAT VK-600. Just as it's a fact that the Emotiva XPA-2 has a narrower and less deep soundstage compared to the BAT VK-600.
Also, as I already stated, the subjective and preferential qualities are the tonal qualities of these amps. That is, having a warm tone, neutral tone, or bright tone.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
You didn't really expect the man to go down the laundry list of amps did you ? You guys are really making a mountain out of a mole hill on this.
Phil, you know I love ya bro, but you indeed stirred that pot.
In all things in life, their exists different levels of quality and build, and yes....sound, to accommodate anyone's wallet or ears. Whats so frickin' hard to understand about that ?
Ah Tony don't make me laugh...I had no intention of stirring the pot as you say, but things did escalate. So if I'm to take the blame I'll say that I unintentionally started out with a small wooden spoon...now by the time these whack-a-doodles get finished we're up to a Yamaha 200HP boat motor doing the stirring. To bad Emo doesn't make boat motors...that would have been so poetic. :twisted: :razz:"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »Ah Tony don't make me laugh...I had no intention of stirring the pot as you say, but things did escalate. So if I'm to take the blame I'll say that I unintentionally started out with a small wooden spoon...now by the time these whack-a-doodles get finished we're up to a Yamaha 200HP boat motor doing the stirring. To bad Emo doesn't make boat motors...that would have been so poetic. :twisted: :razz:
Did you say something with Emo and Boat....If they don't make boat motors, I take it they could make for an excellllllllllllent anchor. Close enough to me...
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I'm sure theyalready have their eyes on at least one boat manufacturer. They'll take over the world by land, sea, and air unless we act now!
Looks like they are well underway on that...
http://emomarine.com/The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Well were up to 6 pages now and the rebel rousers are still "Polking" fun at Emo..
I have a suspicion that they are scared of Emo taking over the World..ATC SCM40's,VTL TL 2.5 Preamp,PSB Stratus Goldi's,McCormack DNA 500,McCormack MAP-1 Preamp,Pro-Ject Xtension 10 TT,Ortofon Cadenza Red/Nordost RedDawn LS Speaker cables, Bryston BDP-2, Bryston BDA-2,PS Audio AC-3 power cables -
I already pointed out that Polk calls the LSi 9's and LSiM 703's bookshelf speakers in ALL of their product information. So, now you can sit down and shut up.
I know Polk calls them bookshelfs. A vote of hands on how many people have them stand mounted. And what is the amount of BSC in the cross over. Maybe Face can answer that.
Yes I am drawing a line of delineation based on that. Because generally speaking a bookshelf/nearwall/onwall will have a different cross over tweaked. And if we want to start digging holes on that: I'll setup a PETT (where there are a bunch of designers) account and we can go over the vagaries of design over there. Let me know. -
You didn't really expect the man to go down the laundry list of amps did you ? You guys are really making a mountain out of a mole hill on this.
Swing and a miss. I think they are amps that he has heard and liked on his product and with other brands he most likely hasn't evaluated them or less than likely heard some of these other amps and didn't like what they did on his products. Synergy. -
Ah, so you do agree that when he mentioned the XPA-2, Jim Salk was listing it as a minimim level of "getting the job done" compared to the BAT VK-600 which excels at "getting the job done". Great! Let's close the thread. Also, there is no emphasis on 'inexpensive' implied. It is a fact that the XPA-2 is less expensive than the BAT VK-600. Just as it's a fact that the Emotiva XPA-2 has a narrower and less deep soundstage compared to the BAT VK-600.
Also, as I already stated, the subjective and preferential qualities are the tonal qualities of these amps. That is, having a warm tone, neutral tone, or bright tone.
No we don't agree. That is asking of me to guess someone else's opinion of one vs the other. I know he recommended the amps, I don't know in what or if any particular order. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Swing and a miss. I think they are amps that he has heard and liked on his product and with other brands he most likely hasn't evaluated them or less than likely heard some of these other amps and didn't like what they did on his products. Synergy.
Yep... nothing quite like trying to put words and thoughts into the mouth and mind of a man you have never met. Your credibility is top notch with me.:rolleyes:The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
