Education in this country

markmarc

Having followed many many districts across the country handle budget deficits (as well as the parochial schools I've worked at) for three decades, the one thing I have learned is that the bigger the district the more likely the cuts begin at the classroom rather than farthest away. For example non-school administrative costs should be no greater than 3%, yet many run at 11%+. The role of the school board must be to assist the superintendent by fairly questioning his/her's policies/ decisions, and plans. Also, to negotiate contracts with the teacher's union that promote the highest level of professionalism, places learning first, and protects the financial viability of the district. All under the umbrella that student achievement moves upward.

Regarding Music in Schools
One of the sad things about cutting Music programs is the complete lack of knowledge in the general population of the importance music plays in educating the mind of a child. One of the first things an infant responds to is music and rhythm. Toddlers learn to clap, move, walk, talk in longer streams from the rhythm of music. Math and music are intertwined on many levels as both involve counting in various ways. Advanced alzheimer sufferers when all other forms of connection with the world around them are gone they still can respond to music from their youth. This fact proves the importance music is to human brain development. An anecdotal example: At one of my previous schools we moved math time for a grade that had struggled with the subject for years for after music twice a week. All new lessons happened after music class. The results were better than expected. Our students went for over a year behind to just above grade level in one year. The 3,870,000 Google hits reflects such a connection, within that are numerous scientific studies confirm such a connection.

Before such positive and direct benefits of education are cut, shouldn't after-school sports go on the chopping block? I say this as a two year letterman and high school sports fan. The insurance costs alone for high school football are outrageous. Why not change to a European system of club teams? I use that example so we may all consider everything. No sacred cows.

jcandy

inspiredsports wrote: »

In a world of finite resources, Music, Art, and Foreign Language programs will (and should) be cut first. We will never compete in the world market in music and art, even though they have significant value.

Math is critical, isn't it?

What is the derivative of sin(sin(x))?

drselect

jcandy wrote: »

What is the derivative of sin(sin(x))?

cos(sin(x))cos(x)

Let the chain rule be your friend or was it google?

obieone

Reality isn't for everyone:rolleyes:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5kxc6kzH-uI&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jcandy

drselect wrote: »

cos(sin(x))cos(x)
Let the chain rule be your friend or was it google?

For extra credit, how about the derivative of |x|?

Tour2ma

stubby wrote: »

Hey Greg, if we are to drop/eliminate many of these unnecessary subjects, what would be your recommended curriculum for an average student, say a sophomore in high school with no real hope of scholarships and an innate hatred of math?

Home Ec?

As for music and the arts:
1. I never realized there was a worldwide competition... but if there is...
2. How could any patriotic American ever settle for us being anything less than #1?

obieone wrote: »

Reality isn't for everyone:rolleyes:

Gotta love it when a reality claim is followed by an animated video...

mrbigbluelight

inspiredsports wrote: »

James,
First, don't forget that my wife has been a public school teacher since 1980, and if it weren't for the "minimum wage mentality of the union, she would be earning double what she brings home because she is truly that good. And the corollary is some of her co-teachers would be gone or making half of what they make because they are that bad.

Again, with respect, why did she join the union ?
A person can either be part of the solution, or part of the problem.

inspiredsports wrote:

Your misguided "education is not a business" philosophy is precisely why the system is so broken.

Education should be turning out prophets, not profits.
Fiscally responsible, yes.
Ethical, yes.
But when THE Ohio State Universtiy President, Gordon Gee, responds to a reporters question regarding a possible dismissal of football coach Jim Tessel for infractions/lying with "I just hope he doesn't dismiss ME !", then .... things are broken.
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCutRJvTK6c&feature=related )
Acknowledged that Jim Tressel brings in all sorts of alum money; football is a big money-maker as evidenced by the fact that coach Jim Tressel makes 3 times what OSU President Gordon Gee does.
So education being a business means that coach Tressel calls the shots as he brings in more money. I see.
Good business model, but bad education model, IMO.

inspiredsports wrote:

We have one specific high-school math teacher here who openly says to the students in his in classes, "I can do whatever I want, pass or fail you as I please, teach or read the newspaper, whatever, and your parent's can't get rid of me." All 4 of my children have had this assclown, and I'd like to shove his clown nose up his clown **** as I handed him his last paycheck an an application for McDonald's.

Assuming that your 4 children weren't quadruplets, but spread out over a period of minimally 4 years, then why wasn't this teacher fired ?
This kind of situation can be corrected in closed (vs open) school board meetings, where facts and materials can be presented, questions asked, and answers demanded.
Was this avenue for problem resolution explored ? If so, what was the response of the school board ?
If this avenue for problem resolution was not explored, why not ?
Possible non-action in this case appears to have subjected children to an "a$$%^&e clown" teacher, year after year.

inspiredsports wrote:

As far as molestation that you will "say no more about", this is why many are outraged . . . http://www.theblaze.com/stories/disgraced-teacher-enjoys-well-paid-13th-year-in-rubber-room-after-sexually-molesting-6th-grade-student . . . Just because you are unaware does not mean it didn't happen, and it reflects pathetically on how unions operate to the direct detriment of taxpayers.

I thought we weren't supposed to discuss religion here. Because ..... oh, sorry .... thought you were talking about #insert-religious-representatives-in-the-news-here#.

Point being, molestation occurs in every walk of life.

inspiredsports wrote:

The way legislators are (finally) moving is going to facilitate a rude awakening for teachers who think as you do.

Would agree that a rude awakening will occur over the next several years.

mrbigbluelight

Would like to thank Markmarc again for presenting his opinions for discussion.

Trying to stay on track. :redface:

steveinaz

Pycroft wrote:

1. Yes, and discipline starts and ends at home.
2. HOW DO YOU RATE A TEACHER? MY BIG QUESTION!!! Who rates? What are you looking for? There are so many issues, that just stating this does nothing.
3. What are junk classes? Who decides? Is science a junk class? It's not tested? Is History? It's not tested? Art? Music? Foreign Language?
4. This happens already. Students are classified from a young age. Individual plans are created for the student to help them better succeed, etc. I think the plan that's in place is good. The problem, I believe, is the government, through NCLB has created an unreasonable expectation for students with learning disabilities.
5. Okay...what does this mean exactly?
6. This is private school. In a public school, you cannot remove students from school because of parents. That's the reality of it.
7. See #3. What you may want to address is teacher induction - focusing on better assisting new teachers (First 3 years of teaching) because there are many things that they are not prepared for once entering the classroom. This, I believe, doens't fall on the teacher.

1. Then why isn't happening at home?
2. The senior school staff would determine the rating criteria, if you want me to take on that role, you'll need to pay me $40/hr. while I develope a plan---and trust me, I COULD.
3. Again, senior staff would decide. Anyone with a modicum of common sense could pin-point the non-starters. If it isn't a basic skill to succeed, ie, under water basket weaving; it should be dropped. My 10yr old grandaughter has to do a Powerpoint presentation next week....WTF does a 10yr need to know about powerpoint? That should be jr high cirriculum.
4. So why isn't it working? "Plans" are great, provided they actually work.
5. THE PRINCIPAL IS THE BOSS. Where's the misunderstanding in that statement?
6. Ah, so you get my point.
7. Do you know an under performing teacher when you see one? Sure you do---and so do I.

While you are quizzing me, what would you do? You are getting wrapped around the axle with issues that are not that hard to address.

steveinaz

Let's discuss #1 in depth.

Know why there's no discipline in the home anymore? Liberals. Disicpline your child, and CPS or the cops may very well end up at your front door. Why is that? Because Government is IN our lives, the way liberals like it. There's no need to "explain" to a 9 year old that calling Mom a **** is not nice; it's time for a butt to get whipped. Of course children brought up with proper dicipline from the start rarely do these things. They have been taught the pecking order by STRONG leadership from their parents. You don't need to be a bully, or abusive---you simply impose YOUR will; it takes balls/ovaries to do it, but if you're not up to the task, don't have children.

Children are ill-mannered and don't know their place these days. It's the new "hands off" approach of the liberals that now have the government telling us how to raise our children. I couldn't give a s@#t less, when warranted, my children got those butts warmed up. Today, they are gracious, well mannered adults that show immense respect in elders. As it should be.

treitz3

steveinaz wrote: »

There's no need to "explain" to a 9 year old that calling Mom a **** is not nice; it's time for a butt to get whipped.

Amen!

steveinaz

I spoke with my daughter-in-law this weeked (A very good teacher) about my points---she agreed 100% on almost ALL points. BTW, her children know what a spanking is, and I'm proud of her for having the guts to do the hard thing. As a result, those children are a joy to be around---I really enjoy them. They have respect, they are quite funny, and they are incredibly intelligent/independant.

Discipline IS NOT the enemy of enthusiasm.

dorourke07

steveinaz wrote: »

Let's discuss #1 in depth.

Know why there's no discipline in the home anymore? Liberals.

Children are ill-mannered and don't know their place these days.

I couldn't give a s@#t less, when warranted, my children got those butts warmed up.

Wow, what a wide casting net of hypocrisy. Yes, you please tell me how to raise my kids instead of Liberals, since they don't know how. They are all wrong and all kids are horrible.

As my wife and I are very involved in our kid's life and in making him a great person, he has great manners and we have not found it necessary to beat him. I am glad your kids survived their beatings.

tonyb

stubby wrote: »

Hey Greg, if we are to drop/eliminate many of these unnecessary subjects, what would be your recommended curriculum for an average student, say a sophomore in high school with no real hope of scholarships and an innate hatred of math?

Please don't say get ready for the military.

What maybe the right curriculum for the kid may not be offered at your average public school. Trade school would be an option too. Plenty of professions out there where being a math wiz isn't necessary.

Some of you guys brought up dicipline, while important as it is, still beyond the control of the public sector. What I see as even more important, is the control over what these kids are exposed to, both on their own and from the public schools themselves. When you have schools holding up dudes like Van Jones, who calls for students to rise up and revolt, not respect your elders, and that they are gods, then it no longer is about education but rather being an activist.
Parents have to control what their kids see and hear, and question the things that are out of line in the public schools. No matter the problems we bring up on education, it comes down to money. School boards are reluctant to change, act on parents concerns, because they get your money anyway even if you pull your kid and put him/her in a private school. Change the flow of money, then you can make some changes we have talked about in this thread.
Good discussions have taken place on the pro's and con's of teachers pay, how to determine,and by who and what standards. While I can agree on it being a difficult task, maybe a trial and error type of pilot program can be incorporated in various cities to see what works and what doesn't.
The collective bargaining thing is still an issue for some. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it though. If you say that teachers can't be graded on performance, that they should be payed x amount, what are you collective bargaining for ? A pay raise every year ? Job security ? Better benefits ? Based on what ? Whats the bargaining chip you use to determine why you are deserving of more money or benefits ? Could you survive if you had to keep paying more and more for your employees with no accountability, no way to determine job performance ? Regardless of what the economy does ? It has to be done one way or another, the people who pay the bills demand it.

markmarc

Steve:
About 60% of my school day involves teaching computers to K-8 parochial students. (I have a masters in integrating technology into the curriculum) When I was hired on 5 years ago it was under the mandate that technology be integrated across the curriculum rather than being a standalone subject with no connection to the core curriculum. This shift has allowed for the curriculum to take its rightful place in front of and leading technology use in the classroom. Before this shift in the past 7 years, money was being thrown haphazardly at technology and schools were trying to shoehorn the curriculum to fit the electronic toys.

I follow, as well as the Archdiocese of Portland, and more and more districts across the country the NETS (National Education Technology Standards). These standards are broad/generic, thus allowing for individual districts to assert local curriculum control placing technology in its proper place.

You aren't going to like what I have to say, but keep in mind this is what parents want, believe is right, and use studies to back up. In addition, the countries at the top of the rankings do much the same thing, depending on local desires. In May, as an extension of a unit about family my first graders create their very first PowerPoint, called All About Me. This is in addition to a book version they do in their classroom. Everything is first done on paper, then transferred. In second grade as an extension of their learning about penguins each student creates a PPT about a specific penguin type after first doing book, then Internet research.

Starting fourth grade the students shift away from typing drills and the occasional research to every computer class being completely integrated with the major topic going on in their classroom. The more integrated the learning is, the greater the understanding and permanency of knowledge.

fatchowmein

markmarc wrote: »

Steve:
About 60% of my school day involves teaching computers to K-8 parochial students. (I have a masters in integrating technology into the curriculum) When I was hired on 5 years ago it was under the mandate that technology be integrated across the curriculum rather than being a standalone subject with no connection to the core curriculum. This shift has allowed for the curriculum to take its rightful place in front of and leading technology use in the classroom. Before this shift in the past 7 years, money was being thrown haphazardly at technology and schools were trying to shoehorn the curriculum to fit the electronic toys.

Mark,
This is also true of my wife who teaches history at a large public high school. TAKS is top priority but integrating technology also happens to be a mandate at her school.

z3r0m4g3

I went to school in CT, the school system was one of the best at the time and still ranks in the top ten in the nation year after year. I went to the Marine Corps. to help deal with Iraqis, got out and started attending college in South Carolina. Im one semester away from a Bachelors Degree in Industrial Engineering.

Plenty of people blame the teachers, others blame the students, and some go even farther to blame local and national governing bodies, and for as long as I can remember I always blame the INDIVIDUAL. I fought for this country and I love what this country stands for but I hate to say it people but Americans are lazy. They try their best to get the most out of nothing with the least amount of effort. This statement goes for both the students and the teachers. When I first stepped into a college classroom I wanted to do nothing but drink, party and not study, I even quit for three years. Finally I buckled down and I PUT FORTH MAXIMUM EFFORT, even if the Professionals didn't. With this I brought my GPA up to a 3.65, and made the Presidents list 3 semesters straight, I BROUGHT MY GPA UP, I STUDIED, not the Professors.

Curriculum is important, learning basic fundamentals is very important, forcing yourself to study, and do research is the most important. I can give any Joe Schmo a hammer and tell him to go to work but if I completely ignore the processes in how to use the hammer and properly show Joe how to use this "tool", Joe will never have the ability to properly use it. Then Joe needs to go home and run these processes through his head over and over again until he knows that he can operate this "tool" on his own.

As far as only doing one year of your majors, I dont know how you can go to a University of higher learning, and say that you only did one year of your major and that being well rounded should be pushed to the way side for core classes. I took a psychology, and a sociology class, and Im an engineering student, just so I can deal with persons of other cultures, SOCIOLOGY, and possibly read their body language after I tell them of a new prototype, PSYCHOLOGY. I didnt take music appreciation because it wouldnt help my major, I DIDNT TAKE THE CLASS, and yes you get to choose.

Lastly, making a teacher take a test doesn't mean anything, Einstein sucked at test taking and is the greatest Scientific mind to ever walk the face of this Earth. Just because a teacher takes a test and aces it doesnt mean their methods of teaching are efective to those trying to learn the given subject, and vice versa. Ultimately we could end up with a bunch of brilliant test taking teachers who couldn't teach themselves how to " properly spread butter on a piece of bread". And as I said before if a student ends up with a teacher like this it is up to the student to step up and put forth their maximum effort so that they can use the tools given to them by these overpaid teachers so they can properly use these tools when they are needed. I love how thisparagraph just wrapped all my thoughts up into one solid point. Jason

tonyb

Nothing like staying on topic eh Juju ?

tonyb

Thanks for the post Jason. While I agree that the individual has to make the choice to learn, that may only apply to a certain age group and up.
Making a teacher take a test,doesn't prove anything, agreed, except when they have to explain why they want more money. What do you base it on ? Just asking, a few idea's have been thrown around. Personally, I would like to see good teachers reach well into 6 figures, but also would like to see the lazy crappy ones weeded out too. How do you discern between the two ? On what scale ? By who ?
This probably wouldn't be an issue if the economy was chugging along at a good clip, but it's not. States are trying to find ways to cut costs without raising taxes, or just do more with less. I think a good opportunity exists to revamp education into a system that works more for the students than the adults. Appreciate your input btw.

Pycroft

To Steve and Tony -

Maybe, through Tony's last post, I understand the confusion. My point is that it would be nearly impossible to point out bad teachers - given the man hours and responsibilities of administrators, they would have to hire extra people to observe classes 10 times a year for each of the curricular backgrounds, etc. It would not be hard to pinpoint lazy people who don't care.

When I keep saying find the bad teachers, and nobody can, they usually respond by whining about some molesting, sleeping at the desk, hostile to children teacher. That's is going without saying. Yes, anyone can pinpoint these people - I worked across from one for 6 years. I'm focusing more on the criteria for removing teachers that are qualified to teach their core content. Remember, I'm coming from the perspective of a teacher that teaches music - one of the subjects that is cut first. I would hate to see the above, bad teacher (Or really, bad person) retain their job, when my job was cut.

Regarding money, in NJ, where I work, I see them cutting teaching jobs arbitrarily to save money and everyone whining about teachers. I think it's ridiculous because many have pointed out ways to save TONS of money. Consolidating districts is the biggest. We have townships that have 100 students in elementary schools, each with a superintendant, principal, vice-principal, and the neighboring town has the same. I worked in a school district that was 7-12, and there were 2 feeder elementary schools, each K-5. That means in two towns, there were 3 superintendants. They are the highest paid employees, and while I don't fall to the level of saying they are overpaid, and do nothing, etc. etc. (Unless you work in a school with a good one, perhaps you haven't seen what they do), I do not believe you need 3 of them within two towns. Some have called for just 1 county superintendant, rather than 15-20 individual school superintendants. If each one makes 150k, and you cut 15 of them, you can imagine the savings right there. That would make things very difficult for someone like me - a music teacher, but would be better and more efficient than cutting 10 teaching positions.

James

jinjuku

tonyb wrote: »

Nothing like staying on topic eh Juju ?

It was a partial joke and a poke at beating your kids. I see education has failed to produce someone with a sense of humor and the ability to read between the lines.

I see the crackshot mods here are on the edit button.

steveinaz

There's a vast difference between beating and disciplining. No good parent likes to physically discipline their kid, but sometimes it has to be done. Truly caring about your children sometimes means doing things you do not like---if it really is about making them a better person (manners, respect, behavoir); problem is, some "parents" are more concerned with their own feelings, than they are about teaching a child an important life lesson. This is a by-product of they, themselves, not being disciplined when warranted.

My daughter-in-law was telling me about a kindergarden class she is subbing for, for a couple of weeks. She can't believe how many times she hears "but why do I have to do that?" "but I don't want to do this"...etc. Constant questioning of basic things that the teacher is telling them to do. This come from "parents" allowing their children to question everything, instead of simply doing what they are told to do. It's an error in discipline. Some things are ok to question, but when you tell a child to do a specific task, it shouldn't need to be followed up with a 10 minute discussion--such as "clean up your room." When you allow questioning of everything, you are in essence "giving them a vote." BS, they don't get a vote; they're not paying the bills, providing food, shelter, clothing, etc. They aren't (or shouldn't be) part of the leadership decisions in the home.

Some kids don't need any physical discipline--they just get it. My daughter might have seen 2 butt whippings---she responded well to verbal butt chewings---my son, totally different. Hard headed, constantly in trouble, constantly doing things that don't require conversation. His butt got lit up quite a few times. They are both actually my step-children, though my son was only 18 months, and his sister 3 when I came into their lives. Today, they rarely speak to their mother--they come to me anytime they have a problem or dilemma (now 27 & 30) for guidance. They trust me because I dsiciplined fairly.

Like my father used to say: "You never got a butt whipping you didn't deserve, and you missed out on quite a few you did deserve."

steveinaz

When you answer to your childs every whim and desire, allow them to question everything, and don't teach basic respect and manners, YOU are setting them up for failure. If you don't have rules and structure, and a hiearchy (sp?) in the home, it breeds insecurity, and denies them the ability to learn basic coping skills. How can a child learn to cope, when they never have to cope with anything? Children desire leadership, and knowing that someone is in charge--they may not like it on the surface, but they NEED IT. It provides them with the security of knowing that they are protected; and that they don't have to provide all the answers, at the grand ol age of 4. This leadership also teaches them respect for adults, and encourages them to listen, rather than challenge all the time.

The real world is tough, and nobody is going to care about their needs when they reach adult age. Things that we endure (within reason) as children help prepare us for when things aren't always perfect in our adult life. It teaches them a number of important tools such as tolerance, reasoning, critical decision making, accepting responsibility for their actions, and occassionally being humbled and admitting error. All of these are critical, and many kids these days lack these skills. Ever wonder why depression is so rampant in this society in the last 20 years? Inability to COPE. EVERYONE suffers depression at some time, but many of us have learned how to dig from within to get over it. We've learned to not be so self-absorbed that all we can do is think about "poor me."

Parenting is the hardest thing you'll ever do, but also likely the most satisfying. The problem in this country is that everyone wants to take the easy path; depressed--pop a pill, overweight--pop a pill, can't stay awake---pop a pill. Instant gratification. We no longer have to "work" thru anything, and as a result we've chosen to be lazy parents; opting to be their pal, rather than their parent--ya know, 'cause it makes us feel good. Being a parent is far harder than being a pal; and far more rewarding for EVERYONE concerned.

steveinaz

dorourke07 wrote: »

Wow, what a wide casting net of hypocrisy. Yes, you please tell me how to raise my kids instead of Liberals, since they don't know how. They are all wrong and all kids are horrible.

As my wife and I are very involved in our kid's life and in making him a great person, he has great manners and we have not found it necessary to beat him. I am glad your kids survived their beatings.

You are both fortunate, and obviously don't fall into the "shoe fits, wear it" category. Yes, my children survived, and just like my parents, they love and respect me very much; but that wasn't my goal. Making them decent human beings was my goal--if they love me for that, when then all the better.

If you do the right things, and are genuine in your intent, your children will always come away loving you for it. Kids are incredibly good at judging character, and they understand that we are not perfect.

steveinaz

I'm done discussing this topic. Either you get it, or you don't. If you don't get it, good luck with that.

txcoastal1

I respect to times I got an a$$ woopin'....wasn't often but was a reminder of conseqences....we called it the fear of God

DarqueKnight

jinjuku wrote: »

I see the crackshot mods here are on the edit button.

If the mods here were as heavy handed on the BAN BUTTON as the crackshot mods on some other audio forums, there wouldn't be much need for such editing.

dorourke07

steveinaz wrote: »

If you do the right things, and are genuine in your intent, your children will always come away loving you for it. Kids are incredibly good at judging character, and they understand that we are not perfect.

I am in complete agreement. We all want the best and to do the best for our kids. Enough said.

mrbigbluelight

jinjuku wrote: »

I see the crackshot mods here are on the edit button.

Yes, they are here on the "Edit" button and that's actually appreciated.
Keeps some of us honest. :rolleyes:

tonyb

Pycroft wrote: »

To Steve and Tony -

My point is that it would be nearly impossible to point out bad teachers - given the man hours and responsibilities of administrators, they would have to hire extra people to observe classes 10 times a year for each of the curricular backgrounds, etc. It would not be hard to pinpoint lazy people who don't care.

Regarding money, in NJ, where I work, I see them cutting teaching jobs arbitrarily to save money and everyone whining about teachers. I think it's ridiculous because many have pointed out ways to save TONS of money. Consolidating districts is the biggest. We have townships that have 100 students in elementary schools, each with a superintendant, principal, vice-principal, and the neighboring town has the same. I worked in a school district that was 7-12, and there were 2 feeder elementary schools, each K-5. That means in two towns, there were 3 superintendants. They are the highest paid employees, and while I don't fall to the level of saying they are overpaid, and do nothing, etc. etc. (Unless you work in a school with a good one, perhaps you haven't seen what they do), I do not believe you need 3 of them within two towns. Some have called for just 1 county superintendant, rather than 15-20 individual school superintendants. If each one makes 150k, and you cut 15 of them, you can imagine the savings right there. That would make things very difficult for someone like me - a music teacher, but would be better and more efficient than cutting 10 teaching positions.

James

I'm a little confused by this James. You claim it nearly impossible to point out bad teachers, then claim it would not be hard to pinpoint lazy people who don't care. Which one is it ?
We have the same problems here in my state with districts,administrators, superintendants. Seeing that your from NJ, from what I gather, the unions will not let them do the things you suggest. By consolidateing, people will be out of a job, thats not acceptable to some, in your state and mine. By "some", I mean the teacher unions. I do agree with your thinking, the cost of a couple big wiggs can save alot of teacher jobs or at least go to compensate the ones deserving of 6 figures.
On a side note, your states teacher unions and Chris Christy have been butting heads alot, hows things working out for you in your state ?