Education in this country

steveinaz

Complexity is an illusion that the lazy-minded and unmotivated use as an excuse to justify why they defeat themselves before they've ever begun.

bikezappa

Data can be confusing and can lie to you if you are not careful.

In the 1950s during the outbreak of Polio there was accurate data that showed a clear relationship to ice cream consumption and new polio caes. Some people thought ice cream caused Polio. The fact the polio spread during the warmer climate was the relationship. You could also find a relationship to cooking outdoors and polio if you looked.

To form accurate conclusions about cause and effect with data you need more than one set of data. Cross reference the data.

Now let's call each other some more names.

kevhed72

bikezappa wrote: »

Now let's call each other some more names.

I think this sums it up at this point.
The forum needs a new sub-section named "All things political people will never agree on"

steveinaz

I come from a big family, I love a good argument.

bikezappa

steveinaz wrote: »

I come from a big family, I love a good argument.

I love a good debate.

Maybe with some data also.

nooshinjohn

steveinaz wrote: »

Complexity is an illusion that the lazy-minded and unmotivated use as an excuse to justify why they defeat themselves before they've ever begun.

Defining an issue as complex is also a tool used to convince others that they are not smart enough to comprehend it and need some new BIG-GOV solution to solve it. Thankfully many of us sheeple are starting to awaken and see things the way they really are...

Pycroft

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Defining an issue as complex is also a tool used to convince others that they are not smart enough to comprehend it and need some new BIG-GOV solution to solve it. Thankfully many of us sheeple are starting to awaken and see things the way they really are...

I don't believe this for a second. I believe that education is a huge complexity, and if it was so easy to fix someone...ANYONE would be able to answer my initial question that nobody responds to - how would you make teachers accountable? What are the standards?

It's not that we can't fix it. The problems in education are a reflection of the problems in our country as a whole. Lazy, get everything the want children, non-supportive parents that are too busy to be a part of their children's education, children having children and not being ready to be a parent. Fix society, and you fix education (Good luck).

James

inspiredsports

kevhed72 wrote: »

I think this sums it up at this point.
The forum needs a new sub-section named "All things political people will never agree on"

AudioKarma started "politicalchat.org", check it out if you want to really go crazy . . .

bigaudiofanatic

I work with a guy named Dong choo "no joke" his son is 5 years old and is already reading at a 6th grade level, also he is already writing in cursive. Why? Because Dong spends each and every reading or gets read to by his son. I think if we spent more time with our children and helped them when they are young they would have more dedication in their learning.

inspiredsports

Pycroft wrote: »

I don't believe this for a second. I believe that education is a huge complexity, and if it was so easy to fix someone...ANYONE would be able to answer my initial question that nobody responds to - how would you make teachers accountable? What are the standards?

It's not that we can't fix it. The problems in education are a reflection of the problems in our country as a whole. Lazy, get everything the want children, non-supportive parents that are too busy to be a part of their children's education, children having children and not being ready to be a parent. Fix society, and you fix education (Good luck).

James

First, It's a local issue. I'm not really concerned with what they are doing in New York, Chicago, LA or Bethlehem, PA and don't want my schools here in northeast Ohio to be bound involved in it.

I don't know what you do for a living or if you are good at it, but someone in your organization does. If they determine you are under-performing, they either coach you or fire you, and that is the right answer.

In the classroom, forget teaching, look at the cases where teachers have molested students, but then are simply sent to "safe rooms" for years and years, receiving full pay and writing books or surfing the Internet all day.

As long as they are untouchable because of union negotiated loopholes, the criteria you are demanding doesn't even come into play because no matter what the criteria, the teachers don't need to meet it to continue to collect raises and paychecks.

Believe me, I know some great teachers, and they make the exact same amount of money as the most horrible in the district. I want to give the great teachers a raise and the poor teachers the boot (or low pay), and I want the decision as to whether they are good teachers or not made at the local level.

Why do you have a problem with this? Do you have a vested interest in some friends or relatives who are bad teachers and will get the boot?

cstmar01

BlueFox wrote: »

Yes, and it never ceases to amaze me how the stupid people know everything about politics, economics, science, etc., and always have a simple Tom Clancy answer for the most complex of issues. :eek:

And they are the ones who always seem to have children, and a LOT OF THEM!!!! Who then continue on the legacy of their forefathers at just being stupid!


Reminds me of a movie that was made...hmmmm

inspiredsports

cstmar01 wrote: »

And they are the ones who always seem to have children, and a LOT OF THEM!!!! Who then continue on the legacy of their forefathers at just being stupid!

Are you talking about the protester folks jumping into the statehouse through the windows up there in Madison?

Pycroft

I am a teacher, which makes me vested in this whole conversation.

"In the classroom, forget teaching, look at the cases where teachers have molested students, but then are simply sent to "safe rooms" for years and years, receiving full pay and writing books or surfing the Internet all day."

I have never heard of any teacher who has done anything like this to a student and kept their jobs, period. I have nothing further to say on that.

"Believe me, I know some great teachers, and they make the exact same amount of money as the most horrible in the district. I want to give the great teachers a raise and the poor teachers the boot (or low pay), and I want the decision as to whether they are good teachers or not made at the local level."

"Why do you have a problem with this? Do you have a vested interest in some friends or relatives who are bad teachers and will get the boot".

First off, if you read any of my posts when were actually talking education, and not politics, I have NO problem with it. I would love to see people rewarded for a good job, but I think it's silly to treat educators like factory workers. Education is not a business. Here are a few things:

-Many are saying that teachers should be paid based on how well their students achieve on state standardized tests. Then, what about the teachers that do not teach subjects that are tested - Science, History, Music, Art, Foreign Language. How are they evaluated? On what level? Some suggested Peer evaluation. Some suggested the principal's evaluate. Well, I don't know of any principal that is certified to teach EVERY subject level, and if you have peer's evaluate, who's to say the 'Peer' that's evaluating you is any good? It's all subjective.

- If all teacher's were evaluated on test scores - who's to say the tests are testing what they should be testing? Are there any considerations given for socio economics? Disabilities? What considerations are given? Again, subjective.

- Again, it is my firm belief that teachers are not to blame for the failures of education (See previous posts). Are there bad teachers? Sure. Are there issues with education as a whole? Sure. I'll tell you, education has changed little structurally in the last 50 years, and all the changes have attempted to be positive (Technology, methodology, philosophy, etc.). How is education worse now than it was when 'We were children'? It's society (See my last post, I'm not reposting it all).

I'm sorry, but you saying, "I've seen good teachers, and I've seen bad teachers". Who are you to determine? Who is anyone without guidelines? If "Not molesting children" is a criteria, fine....what else? How are you to judge if a teacher is doing a good job? I've posted this same thing, maybe 4 times throughout the 6+ pages, and have not gotten one legitimate idea, other than peer review, which is also subjective. Again, if we treat teachers like factory workers, and treat education like a business, it's over.

James

steveinaz

Pycroft wrote: »

I believe that education is a huge complexity, and if it was so easy to fix someone...ANYONE would be able to answer my initial question that nobody responds to - how would you make teachers accountable? What are the standards?

See my numerous posts back a few pages, I've offered a number of possible soultions.

1. Discipline (without this restored, the best teachers on the planet won't matter)
2. Quarterly ratings on teacher performance (high annual rating would get a cash performance award)
3. Re-vamp the cirriculum. Get back to the basics, shelf the "junk" classes
4. FOCUS HARD on the struggling students
5. The PRINCIPAL is the BOSS
6. ALL parents would sign agreements to the standards set forth in the school, those who don't agree with the standards won't be allowed to enroll their children. PERIOD.
7. Sub-standard teachers (with potential) would be placed on a "work performance plan" for 1 year; after that, if they don't meet the standards, they would be pink slipped.

on, and on....read my earlier posts.

Hard, firm, but fair...kids respond to it, and so do adults. When integrity and pride are brought back into a "system" people respond in very positive ways. No one wants to be a loser; well 99% don't, so we get rid of the 1% who just don't seem happy with anything. Consistency, discipline, high standards, and standing together can fix nearly anything. I did it for 15 years in the Army, my final assignment found me in charge of 43 people in a direct support Satellite/Microwave/Radio/Computer tech shop. I had regular meetings, and made it very clear what my expectations were of the personnel; when they slipped, I reminded them with a formal counseling. It works. I rewarded good performance and strongly as I discipline bad performance, and I treated my people with respect and integrity--but the rules were the rules.

bikezappa

James that was a well thought out post in IMHO.

No simple anwers are there?

jcandy

Pycroft wrote: »

-Many are saying that teachers should be paid based on how well their students achieve on state standardized tests. Then, what about the teachers that do not teach subjects that are tested - Science, History, Music, Art, Foreign Language. How are they evaluated? On what level? Some suggested Peer evaluation.

Your post reflects my perspective, which does not have the benefit of your experience. I would also warn against attempts to optimize education primarily via "performance based" metrics. Off the top of my head, I would list general creativity, skills for dealing with complex problems (problems that take a week or month to solve), and interpersonal skills (the ability to work effectively in a team), as aspects of education that are not well-addressed by standardized tests. I have seen examples of Asian graduate students with superb test-taking ability who never developed into effective scientists because they lacked these less tangible skills. Further, it must be the most dreary of all possible worlds to be a student in a system where "test prep." is the overarching goal of your education.

steveinaz

I don't agree on paying teachers based (soley) on student performance--that is not a fair system to the teacher. There are other ways to weed out bad performance. I think using tests as a measure of performance is just as bad. A proactive senior staff should be closely monitoring how classes are performing, and indentify a fix when a problem, or poor trend is found. You've got be willing to get down in the trenches and help---ACTIVELY. Anyone worth their salt knows when poor performance is due to a poor teacher, or lack of discipline, poor material outline, or bad approach/method of teaching.

inspiredsports

Pycroft wrote: »

I am a teacher, which makes me vested in this whole conversation.

"In the classroom, forget teaching, look at the cases where teachers have molested students, but then are simply sent to "safe rooms" for years and years, receiving full pay and writing books or surfing the Internet all day."

I have never heard of any teacher who has done anything like this to a student and kept their jobs, period. I have nothing further to say on that.

"Believe me, I know some great teachers, and they make the exact same amount of money as the most horrible in the district. I want to give the great teachers a raise and the poor teachers the boot (or low pay), and I want the decision as to whether they are good teachers or not made at the local level."

"Why do you have a problem with this? Do you have a vested interest in some friends or relatives who are bad teachers and will get the boot".

First off, if you read any of my posts when were actually talking education, and not politics, I have NO problem with it. I would love to see people rewarded for a good job, but I think it's silly to treat educators like factory workers. Education is not a business. Here are a few things:

-Many are saying that teachers should be paid based on how well their students achieve on state standardized tests. Then, what about the teachers that do not teach subjects that are tested - Science, History, Music, Art, Foreign Language. How are they evaluated? On what level? Some suggested Peer evaluation. Some suggested the principal's evaluate. Well, I don't know of any principal that is certified to teach EVERY subject level, and if you have peer's evaluate, who's to say the 'Peer' that's evaluating you is any good? It's all subjective.

- If all teacher's were evaluated on test scores - who's to say the tests are testing what they should be testing? Are there any considerations given for socio economics? Disabilities? What considerations are given? Again, subjective.

- Again, it is my firm belief that teachers are not to blame for the failures of education (See previous posts). Are there bad teachers? Sure. Are there issues with education as a whole? Sure. I'll tell you, education has changed little structurally in the last 50 years, and all the changes have attempted to be positive (Technology, methodology, philosophy, etc.). How is education worse now than it was when 'We were children'? It's society (See my last post, I'm not reposting it all).

I'm sorry, but you saying, "I've seen good teachers, and I've seen bad teachers". Who are you to determine? Who is anyone without guidelines? If "Not molesting children" is a criteria, fine....what else? How are you to judge if a teacher is doing a good job? I've posted this same thing, maybe 4 times throughout the 6+ pages, and have not gotten one legitimate idea, other than peer review, which is also subjective. Again, if we treat teachers like factory workers, and treat education like a business, it's over.

James

James,

First, don't forget that my wife has been a public school teacher since 1980, and if it weren't for the "minimum wage mentality of the union, she would be earning double what she brings home because she is truly that good. And the corollary is some of her co-teachers would be gone or making half of what they make because they are that bad.

Your misguided "education is not a business" philosophy is precisely why the system is so broken.

We have one specific high-school math teacher here who openly says to the students in his in classes, "I can do whatever I want, pass or fail you as I please, teach or read the newspaper, whatever, and your parent's can't get rid of me." All 4 of my children have had this assclown, and I'd like to shove his clown nose up his clown **** as I handed him his last paycheck an an application for McDonald's.

Second, don't forget that if I moved to Bethlehem, I would be your BOSS, not your loyal subject, but your corrupt union system supersedes this "right" order of things.

Third, I paid for my college degree just as you did. Yours shouldn't give you immunity to being fired.

Get this very clear in you head. Every one of us who works in the "Real World" works under someone who may or may not be "trained in the nuances of every sub-function it takes to run a business, and we can be fired. Why do you think you are immune? Do you feel we (the public) "owe" it to you ???

As far as molestation that you will "say no more about", this is why many are outraged . . . http://www.theblaze.com/stories/disgraced-teacher-enjoys-well-paid-13th-year-in-rubber-room-after-sexually-molesting-6th-grade-student . . . Just because you are unaware does not mean it didn't happen, and it reflects pathetically on how unions operate to the direct detriment of taxpayers.

You need to work a couple of years in the private sector and get a grip on reality.

The way legislators are (finally) moving is going to facilitate a rude awakening for teachers who think as you do.

Greg

Demiurge

Seniority system cuts fresh MPS teachers amid budget crunch. 'Outstanding First Year Teacher' Laid Off

Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit.

Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, "Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers."

markmarc

The Douglas County Public School just south of the Denver metro area (golfers: think the International at Castle Pines) has had a merit/performance pay system for several years now. Here is a portion of the introduction:

The plan maintained the educational credits and degrees portion of the single salary schedule, linked pay for years of experience to teacher evaluations, and added several new elements, including an outstanding teacher award, knowledge and skill-based pay, group- based performance pay, and responsibility pay. While these new elements redirected only a small proportion of teacher pay, they appear to have made a significant contribution to focusing and enhancing the human resource management system in the district. The plan was developed through collaboration with the union and the district and was informed by research and experience in compensation in the private sector.

The review study was done by the CONSORTIUM FOR POLICY RESEARCH IN EDUCATION and can be read in its entirety.

Demiurge

inspiredsports wrote: »

The way legislators are (finally) moving is going to facilitate a rude awakening for teachers who think as you do.

Greg

What's fantastic is the number of teachers here who will not be forced to pay union dues anymore or join the union. The awakening will be fantastic for them, the students, the parents, and the community as a whole.

:biggrin:

inspiredsports

markmarc wrote: »

The Douglas County Public School just south of the Denver metro area (golfers: think the International at Castle Pines) has had a merit/performance pay system for several years now. Here is a portion of the introduction:

The plan maintained the educational credits and degrees portion of the single salary schedule, linked pay for years of experience to teacher evaluations, and added several new elements, including an outstanding teacher award, knowledge and skill-based pay, group- based performance pay, and responsibility pay. While these new elements redirected only a small proportion of teacher pay, they appear to have made a significant contribution to focusing and enhancing the human resource management system in the district. The plan was developed through collaboration with the union and the district and was informed by research and experience in compensation in the private sector.

The review study was done by the CONSORTIUM FOR POLICY RESEARCH IN EDUCATION and can be read in its entirety.

That's a good start, but it says the merit incentives were "added" on top of the existing pay schedule. The base needs to be cut so if teachers don't perform, they don't make whatever the existing base was.

inspiredsports

Demiurge wrote: »

What's fantastic is the number of teachers here who will not be forced to pay union dues anymore or join the union. The awakening will be fantastic for them, the students, the parents, and the community as a whole.

:biggrin:

EXACTLY! Good teachers have no reason to be afraid because they are currently being held from reaching their true potential by the current socialistic union approach.

God, if I only had a dollar for every idea to the benefit of the students my wife suggested that wasn't implemented because it would create "more work" for the teachers. The union answer, "just simmer down and stick to the current curriculum".

It's always a "keep your head down and just get through 180 days and it will soon be summer" approach.

mrbigbluelight

I would still respectfully request the reason why your wife joined the Union.

Pycroft

inspiredsports wrote: »

EXACTLY! Good teachers have no reason to be afraid because they are currently being held from reaching their true potential by the current socialistic union approach.

God, if I only had a dollar for every idea to the benefit of the students my wife suggested that wasn't implemented because it would create "more work" for the teachers. The union answer, "just simmer down and stick to the current curriculum".

It's always a "keep your head down and just get through 180 days and it will soon be summer" approach.

Just remember - this is a Capitalist society. If you are going to treat education like a business, and businesses eek every penny they can to make a buck, don't you think teachers, even good ones, would have something to fear? As it is, with towns voting, knowing that positions will be cut, most budgets are being voted down. It's all about the buck to American's, and most vote with their own pocketbooks in mind. That's why union's were in place to begin with. Do they do it the right way all the time - I don't know, I have no idea and don't really pay attention much - but I do know the history of them somewhat.

Pycroft

steveinaz wrote: »

See my numerous posts back a few pages, I've offered a number of possible soultions.

1. Discipline (without this restored, the best teachers on the planet won't matter)
2. Quarterly ratings on teacher performance (high annual rating would get a cash performance award)
3. Re-vamp the cirriculum. Get back to the basics, shelf the "junk" classes
4. FOCUS HARD on the struggling students
5. The PRINCIPAL is the BOSS
6. ALL parents would sign agreements to the standards set forth in the school, those who don't agree with the standards won't be allowed to enroll their children. PERIOD.
7. Sub-standard teachers (with potential) would be placed on a "work performance plan" for 1 year; after that, if they don't meet the standards, they would be pink slipped.

1. Yes, and discipline starts and ends at home.
2. HOW DO YOU RATE A TEACHER? MY BIG QUESTION!!! Who rates? What are you looking for? There are so many issues, that just stating this does nothing.
3. What are junk classes? Who decides? Is science a junk class? It's not tested? Is History? It's not tested? Art? Music? Foreign Language?
4. This happens already. Students are classified from a young age. Individual plans are created for the student to help them better succeed, etc. I think the plan that's in place is good. The problem, I believe, is the government, through NCLB has created an unreasonable expectation for students with learning disabilities.
5. Okay...what does this mean exactly?
6. This is private school. In a public school, you cannot remove students from school because of parents. That's the reality of it.
7. See #3. What you may want to address is teacher induction - focusing on better assisting new teachers (First 3 years of teaching) because there are many things that they are not prepared for once entering the classroom. This, I believe, doens't fall on the teacher.

Pycroft

inspiredsports wrote: »

James,

First, don't forget that my wife has been a public school teacher since 1980, and if it weren't for the "minimum wage mentality of the union, she would be earning double what she brings home because she is truly that good. And the corollary is some of her co-teachers would be gone or making half of what they make because they are that bad.

What makes her a good teacher? Again, my whole question from the start (and by the way, I never said ANYTHIGN about a union, so you getting so aggressive and throwing me in some generalization is ridiculous) has been, how do we decide who is a good teacher, and who makes the determination. Read the posts man.

Your misguided "education is not a business" philosophy is precisely why the system is so broken.

This is where we will have to disagree.
We have one specific high-school math teacher here who openly says to the students in his in classes, "I can do whatever I want, pass or fail you as I please, teach or read the newspaper, whatever, and your parent's can't get rid of me." All 4 of my children have had this assclown, and I'd like to shove his clown nose up his clown **** as I handed him his last paycheck an an application for McDonald's.



Second, don't forget that if I moved to Bethlehem, I would be your BOSS, not your loyal subject, but your corrupt union system supersedes this "right" order of things.

Third, I paid for my college degree just as you did. Yours shouldn't give you immunity to being fired.

Get this very clear in you head. Every one of us who works in the "Real World" works under someone who may or may not be "trained in the nuances of every sub-function it takes to run a business, and we can be fired. Why do you think you are immune? Do you feel we (the public) "owe" it to you ???

As far as molestation that you will "say no more about", this is why many are outraged . . . http://www.theblaze.com/stories/disgraced-teacher-enjoys-well-paid-13th-year-in-rubber-room-after-sexually-molesting-6th-grade-student . . . Just because you are unaware does not mean it didn't happen, and it reflects pathetically on how unions operate to the direct detriment of taxpayers.

You need to work a couple of years in the private sector and get a grip on reality.

The way legislators are (finally) moving is going to facilitate a rude awakening for teachers who think as you do.

Greg

Greg -

I've been here for almost 2 years, and have never ONCE gotten involved in any of the Polk Forum BS that happens when people go back and forth. Education is a topic that I am immensely passionate about. I will just say that your words above have offended me, and you throwing me into some generalization about your hatred of unions. I do not feel like the public "owes" me anything, and I do not feel like I should be "immune" to anything. Lastly, you do not know how I think. I never once stated in any of my postings an opinion about unions. To be honest, we probably agree more than disagree on most of it. I think it may do you good to go back and re-read my postings in this subject without some bias, and then readdress me.

For probably the 12th time - I have, for the entire time been question how anyone will decide what makes a godo teacher, and who will decide, and under what criteria. That's it. I have not jumped into any of the union BS, because frankly, I'm not into BS.

If you care to know what I actually think, instead of assuming you do, here it is:

I am a music teacher. All this talk of finding the good and bad teachers is scaring me. Music, and other arts and humanities is important to me, and I believe music education is vital to students. If we only study math and science, we may be a country of engineers and doctors, with no humanity. There are tons of studies about the importance of music education to students, as well as it's value to learning in general (I won't elaborate since nobody probably cares much). In NJ, so many are talking about 'Good' and 'Bad' and getting rid of the 'Bad'. When money is an issue, and things have to be 'gotten rid of' it's never Math, Science, Lanuage Arts, etc. It's Music, Art, and Foreign Language. When people talk about basing it on testing, my subject is not on any standardized test. Music Education has national and state standards, but nothing expected on a state test (Similar to Science, History, etc.). Again, I believe, as many teachers do, that when the public sector looks at schools and think they can make them more 'Proficient' and 'Effective', I believe they are often looking at the matter from a non-educational prospective. It may seem easy to say, "Get rid of all bad teachers" but I again, would be curious how you decide, and what criteria you may use. I know that i am a good educator, and good music teacher. I know that I am valuable to the school culture, the staff, and the students. I serve a purpose and go above and beyond what anyone in the private sector may expect from a "Music Teacher". Yet, every year I see that my job is in jeopardy, and not because I am bad at my job.

Again, i am offended by the comments, but won't continue on. If you'd like to speak about the political BS that's has jumped into the last 8 pages of this thread, I will not partake, as I haven't yet. Don't lump me in with a generalization and assume you know what I am thinking.

James

Flip8812

Thanks to the teachers!
W/O them we probably wouldnt be reading this. :0)

I know I wouldnt be able to put up with the students 5 days a week.

Thank you (for those that do)

inspiredsports

Pycroft wrote: »

Greg -

I've been here for almost 2 years, and have never ONCE gotten involved in any of the Polk Forum BS that happens when people go back and forth. Education is a topic that I am immensely passionate about. I will just say that your words above have offended me, and you throwing me into some generalization about your hatred of unions. I do not feel like the public "owes" me anything, and I do not feel like I should be "immune" to anything. Lastly, you do not know how I think. I never once stated in any of my postings an opinion about unions. To be honest, we probably agree more than disagree on most of it. I think it may do you good to go back and re-read my postings in this subject without some bias, and then readdress me.

For probably the 12th time - I have, for the entire time been question how anyone will decide what makes a godo teacher, and who will decide, and under what criteria. That's it. I have not jumped into any of the union BS, because frankly, I'm not into BS.

If you care to know what I actually think, instead of assuming you do, here it is:

I am a music teacher. All this talk of finding the good and bad teachers is scaring me. Music, and other arts and humanities is important to me, and I believe music education is vital to students. If we only study math and science, we may be a country of engineers and doctors, with no humanity. There are tons of studies about the importance of music education to students, as well as it's value to learning in general (I won't elaborate since nobody probably cares much). In NJ, so many are talking about 'Good' and 'Bad' and getting rid of the 'Bad'. When money is an issue, and things have to be 'gotten rid of' it's never Math, Science, Lanuage Arts, etc. It's Music, Art, and Foreign Language. When people talk about basing it on testing, my subject is not on any standardized test. Music Education has national and state standards, but nothing expected on a state test (Similar to Science, History, etc.). Again, I believe, as many teachers do, that when the public sector looks at schools and think they can make them more 'Proficient' and 'Effective', I believe they are often looking at the matter from a non-educational prospective. It may seem easy to say, "Get rid of all bad teachers" but I again, would be curious how you decide, and what criteria you may use. I know that i am a good educator, and good music teacher. I know that I am valuable to the school culture, the staff, and the students. I serve a purpose and go above and beyond what anyone in the private sector may expect from a "Music Teacher". Yet, every year I see that my job is in jeopardy, and not because I am bad at my job.

Again, i am offended by the comments, but won't continue on. If you'd like to speak about the political BS that's has jumped into the last 8 pages of this thread, I will not partake, as I haven't yet. Don't lump me in with a generalization and assume you know what I am thinking.

James

You wrote, "When money is an issue, and things have to be 'gotten rid of' it's never Math, Science, Lanuage Arts, etc. It's Music, Art, and Foreign Language"

How would you rate the relative importance of these subjects? Because the reality is that we can no longer afford to pay for everything every one in the U.S. deems important. Especially with the compensation/benefits/retirement packages involved.

3 out of 4 of my children were in both concert and marching band from 5th grade through graduation, and 2 went on to march in college. I've paid in full (no rentals ever) to own an expensive piano, 6 guitars, seven or eight very good flutes, a medium and an exceptional quality piccolo, etc. My collection or stereo equipment and music collection is extensive. I value music.

But . . . now I see where you are coming from.

My wife is an intervention specialist with extremely advanced expertise in Reading and Mathmatics who tutors students at risk of failing, but there is no such thing as a Music Intervention specialist.

In a world of finite resources, Music, Art, and Foreign Language programs will (and should) be cut first. We will never compete in the world market in music and art, even though they have significant value.

Math and Science, and the ability to read and understand Math and Science must be the priorities. Unfortunately, no matter how good you are, you need to understand that you are expendable.

There were some good buggywhip craftsmen around when that world changed. I agree that you may serve a purpose, but the simple fact is your purpose may, at some point in time, no longer make economic sense.

Back to criteria. The folks who pay the bills, the customers (the taxpayers) get to decide. There is no other right answer, and that is what the whole collective bargaining war is about.

And I guess I have to say it again, the teachers I know in 3 school districts are not working to become better educators. They worked hard to obtain tenure, and then they decided to coast for the next 20 or 25 years because there is simply no incentive to work harder. Lesson plans were re-invented year after year until tenure, and then the last set used as a template until retirement unless something forced a change. And again, any attempts to interject anything that might be better for the students, but seems like more work for the teachers is squashed and rejected by the union reps.

stubby

Hey Greg, if we are to drop/eliminate many of these unnecessary subjects, what would be your recommended curriculum for an average student, say a sophomore in high school with no real hope of scholarships and an innate hatred of math?

Please don't say get ready for the military.