Education in this country

steveinaz

- Pay your teachers well, based on performance not seniority.
- Ditch the f'n props. If you can't teach effectively with a chalkboard, chalk, your core knowledge, and a classroom; you're one of them that needs to be replaced.
- Discipline. Period. Needs to be re-established and ENFORCED. No cell phones. No ipods. No electronic device that isn't directly connected with your education. Not saying they can't have one--just that it will be shut off during classroom hours. We didn't need one, and niether do you.
- Get back to the basics. To master ANYTHING in this world, you first have to have the fundamentals down. A student should not be allowed to move on to non-critical classes until the basics are MASTERED.
- Privatize schools, and use a voucher program to implement.
- Parents BACK the schools, schools BACK the parents. Your children aren't entitled to a say in the matter--sorry.

These are my opinions.

dorourke07

In my opinion your right on two items. Pay and disipline. Education used to be what separated the US from the rest of the world......

tonyb

Good start Steve, but you can get way too deep into problems with our system. Watched " Waiting for Superman " the other day,and it gave a good look into the problems our education system is up against. Starts out slow,but stay with it. I believe good teachers should be paid well, just like anyone else in the private sector that excells at their job, but you also need to have the ability to get rid of the losers in the teaching profession too.

bobman1235

The problem with performance-based pay is how you judge performance. It ends up being all based on some standardized test, and then the teachers just teach to pass the standardized test rather than teaching for long-term knowledge.


And as far as "props," like it or not it's a more and more technological world out there, and kids younger and younger need to know how to use those technologies effectively, which means integrating them into the classroom.


I agree with the spirit of your post, just pointing out some difficulties in the specifics.

steveinaz

another I'd like to add:

- Until a child masters the basics, computers should play an extremely limited role. All writing/math should be done long-hand, all research at the library---you know.."books" those paper things with alot of pages that require you to actually experience correctly spelled words, and correct sentence structure.

Once a child shows a good grasp of the basics, then introduce them to computers for paper writing, research, etc. We are far too dependant on these damn things.

thuffman03

All good ideas but it will never happen.

steveinaz

Sure it will, out of sheer necessity. Soon, we'll have no other choice.

steveinaz

The second comment of the OP, was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; my point is, we spend way too much on "aides" and extras. They are an attempt to replace good, quality teaching skills--nothing more. I know, I taught/trained troops for 15 years, it's all about knowing your material intimately, and having a passion for passing on knowledge.

Those who need props either lack the skill and/or desire to communicate an idea in an effective manner; and it displays already a deficiency, and an indicator that teaching isn't that persons "calling."

Here lies the core problem. Over the years teaching has become a "source of income", rather than a source of inspiration. Not everyone is cut-out to be a teacher; it takes something special. Too many of our teachers lack the secret ingredient---that's not meant as an insult (hell, I know I'm not cut-out to teach) it's just that teaching is not for everyone.

If you love to teach, I mean truly live, breathe, and eat it...you can teach anything, with nothing more than a willing audience.

treitz3

What prompted this thread? Just curious as to what the trigger button was.

punk-roc

Issues in Wisconsin?

cokewithvanilla

I think the biggest problem with education is what is taught. I know that I have been learning the same things each semester in college. It's like each progressing class teaches 70% old 30% new. We also spend way too much time on BS. I will graduate in the summer, and this semester is my FIRST semester in my major... that is sad. We should have at least 2 years in our major... at least. Why the hell do we have all these gen eds that lead nowhere? Why did I have to take "music appreciation"?

All this stuff just slows us down. While other countries graduate students quicker, and with more subjects in their major, we graduate slower with only having a few semesters of our major (at least in business).

As for discipline, I'd say ...no. I don't pay to be disciplined. If I want to walk out of class, fine... if I have more important things to do like text or be on my laptop, fine. So far, I can sleep through my classes and maintain a good gpa. Besides, we need people who flip burgers, who package meat, who drive forklifts .... we need people who have no want to be in school.... we should not force everyone to learn.

punk-roc

Universities are not professional/tech schools.. Universities are supposed to create an educated, well-rounded person.. and gen-ed requirements and liberal art classes help accomplish this.

Jason

tonyb

bobman1235 wrote: »

The problem with performance-based pay is how you judge performance. It ends up being all based on some standardized test, and then the teachers just teach to pass the standardized test rather than teaching for long-term knowledge.

No really, if you left it up to the principle to decide. Do you have to take a test to get a raise ? Your boss says your doing a good job, how? By the results he/she see's. By feed back from your clients,customers. Why couldn't teacher pay be based in the same manner ?

Demiurge

punk-roc wrote: »

Issues in Wisconsin?

Perhaps, but in reality the issue in our state has nothing to do with education and everything to do with gelding public union bosses who don't understand that 100% taxpayer funded health care and pensions are not, in any way, a right. While people have been losing their jobs in the private sector due to the economy, people in the public sector have been getting wage and benefit increases.

They're being asked to pay a small portion of their pension and benefits. Public employees are also going to be allowed to opt out of joining a union, and in turn not have their money stolen from them and funneled to political parties they don't agree with.

Bunch of damn crybabies.

I recall someone saying: "Er...uh...um...er...errr...uh...We won!"

bobman1235

tonyb wrote: »

No really, if you left it up to the principle to decide. Do you have to take a test to get a raise ? Your boss says your doing a good job, how? By the results he/she see's. By feed back from your clients,customers. Why couldn't teacher pay be based in the same manner ?

Again, I'm just pointing out how this ends up working in the real world. Teacher "performance" is based on standardized test grades in most places, and this has created a whole class of teachers who teach toward a test, rather than teaching so their students grasp the material best. Those standardized tests are the "results." How else is a boss / principal (remember, the principal is your PAL!) going to judge how well a teacher is teaching?

I'm not suggesting what WOULD happen, I'm telling you what HAS happened.

cokewithvanilla

punk-roc wrote: »

Universities are not professional/tech schools.. Universities are supposed to create an educated, well-rounded person.. and gen-ed requirements and liberal art classes help accomplish this.

Jason

That's the argument. But I argue that if you drop someone in a major, mine is logistics/marketing... then you teach them all the undergrad stuff AND everything in the masters program, then require things like international business and have classes devoted to mastering excel, SAP, etc. that would be more productive than music appreciation. It would also be pretty rounded... maybe not as round as taking bowling....

I hope you realize that classes like that, gen eds, are generally blow off classes. Students don't go, don't pay attention, don't generally care. The first two years of college generally = party. And these students still make it to their 3rd year. I don't think these things have made me "well rounded". I went through the motions, I didn't learn, I simply sat there, then tested. Memorization is the same for every subject, I didn't learn anything. I didn't "learn how to think in many different ways" as they would have you believe.

I know I am under prepared for my first job. There are things employers expect that is not in the curriculum... I think that should take priority over bowling, tennis, and music appreciation.

tonyb

Correct Dave, what unions started out as,and what they are today are worlds apart.
Having had the opportunity to be closer to the inner circles of Unions, I can honestly say what you hear is not B.S. They could give two craps about you, the taxpayer,schools,teachers, it's about money and power, the age old story. You take away the money, you take away the power, hence the fighting. All you have to do is look at states without collective bargaining for public employees and you'll see they are in much better financial situations than states with it.

shawn474

I agree with a lot of your points, but I always learned better in interactive lectures or classrooms with props, rather than just being lectured to. IMO, it doesn't make you a bad teacher to use props; it shows a diversity in styles that maybe suits others as well.

inspiredsports

steveinaz wrote: »

- Pay your teachers well, based on performance not seniority.
- Ditch the f'n props. If you can't teach effectively with a chalkboard, chalk, your core knowledge, and a classroom; you're one of them that needs to be replaced.
- Discipline. Period. Needs to be re-established and ENFORCED. No cell phones. No ipods. No electronic device that isn't directly connected with your education. Not saying they can't have one--just that it will be shut off during classroom hours. We didn't need one, and niether do you.
- Get back to the basics. To master ANYTHING in this world, you first have to have the fundamentals down. A student should not be allowed to move on to non-critical classes until the basics are MASTERED.
- Privatize schools, and use a voucher program to implement.
- Parents BACK the schools, schools BACK the parents. Your children aren't entitled to a say in the matter--sorry.

These are my opinions.

Good stuff.

It's good to see someone posting about this because that is the first step:Getting Involved at the local level.

Parents and guardians need to take control of their children's educations because the so called "experts" do not have the children's best interests covered in any way, shape or form.

My wife has taught since 1981 and is continually baffled by the way the current system rewards, even protects, the worst teachers imaginable with the same compensation as the best. It's nonsensical, especially when you consider what's at stake.

Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Indiana are at very important junctures right now when it comes to the future of education in the US, and that is why we are seeing such rabid scratching, clawing, gouging and gnashing of teeth.

inspiredsports

bobman1235 wrote: »

The problem with performance-based pay is how you judge performance. It ends up being all based on some standardized test, and then the teachers just teach to pass the standardized test rather than teaching for long-term knowledge.

And as far as "props," like it or not it's a more and more technological world out there, and kids younger and younger need to know how to use those technologies effectively, which means integrating them into the classroom.

I agree with the spirit of your post, just pointing out some difficulties in the specifics.

Wow! This is precisely, exactly, unequivocally, perfectly, identically and uniformly what they are being told to do NOW!

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

Again, I'm just pointing out how this ends up working in the real world. Teacher "performance" is based on standardized test grades in most places, and this has created a whole class of teachers who teach toward a test, rather than teaching so their students grasp the material best. Those standardized tests are the "results." How else is a boss / principal (remember, the principal is your PAL!) going to judge how well a teacher is teaching?

I'm not suggesting what WOULD happen, I'm telling you what HAS happened.

This is what schools boards used to do until all of their tools were taken away from rewarding good teachers and trying to get rid of the frothing dick bags. They have no power and the public unions have it all.

The standardized tests were just another way for people to lie to themselves about being 'fair' and to justify not using their brains to make judgments -- good and bad.

We throw more money at education than ever and the results are worse than ever. Nobody will convince me we just have naturally dumber children.

tonyb

bobman1235 wrote: »

Again, I'm just pointing out how this ends up working in the real world. Teacher "performance" is based on standardized test grades in most places, and this has created a whole class of teachers who teach toward a test, rather than teaching so their students grasp the material best. Those standardized tests are the "results." How else is a boss / principal (remember, the principal is your PAL!) going to judge how well a teacher is teaching?

I'm not suggesting what WOULD happen, I'm telling you what HAS happened.

I get your point my man, so change it then. Oh...wait, we can't. Unions don't like someone else having the power to fire,hire,dole out raises, based on whatever criteria.
I do see your point, works the same in the corporate world too. Bonuses are paid to meet certain objectives, employees of coarse want the money, but in achieving those goals, what have you neglected ? You reduce head count to meet financial goals, but customer service suffers....see where I'm going ? Is it better for the company as a whole, or just to make it look good on paper for the executive branch of a corporation....and get their massive bonuses. Pay for performance can be a double edged sword if not done right.

ryanjoachim

Being an employee at a 6-8th grade school, I get a unique view of how education is going these days.

- Ditch the f'n props. If you can't teach effectively with a chalkboard, chalk, your core knowledge, and a classroom; you're one of them that needs to be replaced.

This may apply in the k-5th grades, but not in the later years. Kids these days are plugged in, 24-7. In order to engage them and keep them focused, you have to try to teach in a manner that they understand and are comfortable with. Smartboards, projectors, "cps" systems...they are all different means towards the same goal - keep kids interested in learning.

- Discipline. Period. Needs to be re-established and ENFORCED. No cell phones. No ipods. No electronic device that isn't directly connected with your education. Not saying they can't have one--just that it will be shut off during classroom hours. We didn't need one, and niether do you.

I agree whole-heartedly. Even back when I was in school (late 90's), discipline was hardly there.
Teachers are babysitters. I don't say that to demean them or anything like that, I say it to try to make a point. Staff members are with these kids more per day than their own parents, but they're not allowed to do or say anything that might possibly be considered "being too hard". "Discipline" means being sent to the office, being talked to, and maybe being taken out of class for a day for in-school suspension/detention.
Take the kids out of a class they don't want to be in? You call that a punishment?

Teachers overall aren't paid nearly enough for the work they do and what they have to put up with (imo). They get paid as much as a daycare provider, while having to babysit up to 150 different kids per day. They put in hours of their own time after school, on weekends, on holidays, during the summer; creating lesson plans, attending summer classes to keep current on their curriculum, meeting with parents and other staff to create plans for student with behavioral issues, etc.

inspiredsports

punk-roc wrote: »

Universities are not professional/tech schools.. Universities are supposed to create an educated, well-rounded person.. and gen-ed requirements and liberal art classes help accomplish this.

Jason

What offsets the liberal bent of your "liberal arts classes"?

I have three daughters currently in college and read all of the literature assigned beyond the basic textbooks. It's hard to believe where some of these profs are coming from.

But that's a different thread, this one is about how to fix public primary education (which by the way, has much the same bent as your liberal arts classes in college).

Demiurge

tonyb wrote: »

Correct Dave, what unions started out as,and what they are today are worlds apart.
Having had the opportunity to be closer to the inner circles of Unions, I can honestly say what you hear is not B.S. They could give two craps about you, the taxpayer,schools,teachers, it's about money and power, the age old story. You take away the money, you take away the power, hence the fighting. All you have to do is look at states without collective bargaining for public employees and you'll see they are in much better financial situations than states with it.

Even though I disagree with private sector unions for getting away with what business owners would be hauled into court for, they at least compete. In the public sector unions there isn't any competition.

We never should have allowed unionizing state and federal workers. Sensible state and federal workers I talk to agree. They know they have it way too good when compared to their private sector counterparts. I applaud those who do a good job for the public and also realize things need to change. Some of them haven't been corrupted or gotten out of touch for spending too much time on the gravy train.

Bust the unions and allow competition and education will markedly improve. When you can actually be fired for being a horrible teacher, you'll work harder or get what you deserve. If you're a great teacher, you'll work harder for better pay and staying power. Novel concepts!

cokewithvanilla

oh, another thing I disagree with about education is lack of use of technology. For example, in logistics we have a class devoted to cost analysis methods.... they teach us this BY HAND using a pen and paper. In half a semester, we've learned about 7 methods... however, ALL of these methods are done using technology in the real world. No one calculates the shortest truck route using a pen and paper... I was able to download 148kb freeware that did the problem for me in 6 seconds, instead of taking 15 minutes to do it on paper.

If we utilized the software used in the field, we would be able to learn faster, learn more methods, tackle bigger problems, ect. Simply, we'd be more prepared for the real world.

inspiredsports

steveinaz wrote: »

another I'd like to add:

- Until a child masters the basics, computers should play an extremely limited role. All writing/math should be done long-hand, all research at the library---you know.."books" those paper things with alot of pages that require you to actually experience correctly spelled words, and correct sentence structure.

Once a child shows a good grasp of the basics, then introduce them to computers for paper writing, research, etc. We are far too dependent on these damn things.

Interesting you bring this up. Many teachers place their students on computer assisted "teaching" programs (babysitting programs) while they text hubby or finish parts of their online advanced degree programs at the taxpayers DOUBLE expense.

inspiredsports

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

oh, another thing I disagree with about education is lack of use of technology. For example, in logistics we have a class devoted to cost analysis methods.... they teach us this BY HAND using a pen and paper. In half a semester, we've learned about 7 methods... however, ALL of these methods are done using technology in the real world. No one calculates the shortest truck route using a pen and paper... I was able to download 148kb freeware that did the problem for me in 6 seconds, instead of taking 15 minutes to do it on paper.

If we utilized the software used in the field, we would be able to learn faster, learn more methods, tackle bigger problems, ect. Simply, we'd be more prepared for the real world.

I like your teachers style. After an EMP strike, you and your classmates may be running things as the only class in the world who really learned the mechanics of how something really works.

tonyb

Demiurge wrote: »

This is what schools boards used to do until all of their tools were taken away from rewarding good teachers and trying to get rid of the frothing dick bags. They have no power and the public unions have it all.

The standardized tests were just another way for people to lie to themselves about being 'fair' and to justify not using their brains to make judgments -- good and bad.

We throw more money at education than ever and the results are worse than ever. Nobody will convince me we just have naturally dumber children.

Charter schools have done wonders in poor area's of inner city schools. Cheaper than public schools too.
The standardized tests was a way to hold some accountability, but in the end, the child suffers, not the teacher. We need a new approach to the education system. The unions will fight to keep it the same old song and dance though.

cokewithvanilla

inspiredsports wrote: »

I like your teachers style. After an EMP strike, you and your classmates may be running things as the only class in the world who really learned the mechanics of how something really works.

Problem is, we will be running things at a third grade level. all the analysis we are learning is so basic that I've been able to guess how to do most the stuff without using their formulas. How is this simplistic stuff going to carry me into the real world where someone is getting paid $10/hour to run much more complex calculations on their computer?

edit: we need to face the fact that this world runs on computers. If we had an emp, those calculations would be the least of my worries... we wouldn't get paid without computers, we wouldn't be shipping anything, our people couldn't find any items in the warehouse to ship, ect, ect.

inspiredsports

tonyb wrote: »

Correct Dave, what unions started out as,and what they are today are worlds apart.
Having had the opportunity to be closer to the inner circles of Unions, I can honestly say what you hear is not B.S. They could give two craps about you, the taxpayer,schools,teachers, it's about money and power, the age old story. You take away the money, you take away the power, hence the fighting. All you have to do is look at states without collective bargaining for public employees and you'll see they are in much better financial situations than states with it.

Good lord you should read some of the stuff the Teachers Union "powers that be" write in their various newsletters that are for union member eyes only. I swear to God the kids come in somewhere around 6th or 7th. The rhetoric is even more telling after a few drinks when you are at the Christmas parties, etc.