Education in this country

inspiredsports

markmarc wrote: »

This is just way too funny not to post, no matter what your viewpoint is!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-3-2011/crisis-in-the-dairyland---for-richer-and-poorer---teachers-and-wall-street

Except, based upon what he states, he's clueless.

nooshinjohn

jcandy wrote: »

I wouldn't use the expression feeble-minded; under-educated is more appropriate. People in this country are also very vocal and convinced about various facts of the matter in evolution and climate change. What tends to unify denialists in both cases is the lack of education, whereas the people with Ph.Ds tend to see eye-to-eye.

Actually, if the financial crisis was good for anything, it was for its great illustrative power with respect to corporate welfare. 5 years ago, it was very hard to make any progress on the topic. Trillions of dollars in corporate welfare later, its a bit easier.

Did your PHd teach you to be so ignorant of facts? There IS no concensus on global warming. PHd's on both sides and some within the established GW community accept that. If fact, they gave warming a new name called climate change, which is also total bs. The leaked emails between GW/CC adherents proved conclusively that your PHd friends were not above changing facts to fit their perceptions, so PHd's have near absolute zero credibilty with me.

Trillions of dollars spent on corporate welfare was bs as well, but the solution is to remove the gov from our lives, not continue to expand it. I want them out of my community, out of my bedroom and out of my wallet, and I sure as hell don't want them telling my kid that our founders were atheist heathens that had some failed notion that man could take care of his own family without the government telling him what to do.

I reject any notion that the Constitution is some irrelevant document that has no place in the modern world, and if the ROK (Republik of Kalifornia) thinks that it can do better under socialism, then they should seceed from the union. I doubt anyone in the remaining 49 states would care.

jcandy

cnh wrote: »

I think if you add a phrase to ...liability, handouts, big Gov't, and a total lack of personal [and 'corporate' and business] responsibility, that both you and jcandy could find a point of common ground for a discussion?

I found the 4-item list to be pretty accurate

megasat16

Time to change the thread title!

Economy in this country!

steveinaz

Yeah, guilty as charged, we have strayed...

jcandy

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Did your PHd teach you to be so ignorant of facts? There IS no concensus on global warming.

Excellent! I knew this would happen.

Of course there is a scientific consensus. There is an overwhelming consensus. Let me ask you, what is the source of your facts? How many technical presentations have you attended? I've lost count. When I attend technical meetings, the number of climate-change denialists is exactly ZERO. Here is the official statement of the American Physical Society. It summarizes what physicists (not climate researchers per se) in this country think about the issue:

Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate. Greenhouse gases include carbon dioxide as well as methane, nitrous oxide and other gases. They are emitted from fossil fuel combustion and a range of industrial and agricultural processes.

The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring.

If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth?s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.

Because the complexity of the climate makes accurate prediction difficult, the APS urges an enhanced effort to understand the effects of human activity on the Earth?s climate, and to provide the technological options for meeting the climate challenge in the near and longer terms. The APS also urges governments, universities, national laboratories and its membership to support policies and actions that will reduce the emission of greenhouse gases.

BlueFox

jcandy wrote: »

Excellent! I knew this would happen.

It isn't nice to take advantage of the weak.

megasat16

steveinaz wrote: »

Yeah, guilty as charged, we have strayed...

All in Good Fun, Steve!

I understand Education and Economy is intertwined in any country!

Speaking of Education, isn't Ben Bernanke has a Ph.D also?

Geez...now I wonder why our economy is in deep water.


Carry On, Folks!

nooshinjohn

If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth?s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.

Because the complexity of the climate makes accurate prediction difficult, the APS urges an enhanced effort to understand the effects of human activity on the Earth?s climate, and to provide the technological options for meeting the climate challenge in the near and longer terms. The APS also urges governments, universities, national laboratories and its membership to support policies and actions that will reduce the emission of greenhouse gases.

What I read here is that it is to difficult to make predictions about the climate, but we are certain it's all man's fault so we must act, even though we do not know what we are talking about.... They never discuss that the earth has gone through cycles of climate change in the past, and that these periods were a result of solar, volcanic and other activity. The earth in it's past has been FAR WARMER than today... and MUCH COLDER. To assume that mankind is the root of all that is evil on planet earth is a crock. To continue this discussion with someone that is so blinded by the myth that they themselves cannot look for facts beyond the ones presented at one-sided symposiums is a waste of time as well. PHd's are a waste of time when the only way to get one is to drink the same kool-aide as the Professors that pass them out. Wake up and think for yourself.

jcandy

BlueFox wrote: »

It isn't nice to take advantage of the weak.

Well, seriously, I find it extremely disturbing that something as scientifically factual as climate change (or evolution) can be obfuscated to the point where the public denies it. I feel like I need to read 1984 again

jcandy

nooshinjohn wrote: »

What I read here is that it is to difficult to make predictions about the climate, but we are certain it's all man's fault so we must act, even though we do not know what we are talking about.... They never discuss that the earth has gone through cycles of climate change in the past, and that these periods were a result of solar, volcanic and other activity. The earth in it's past has been FAR WARMER than today... and MUCH COLDER. To assume that mankind is the root of all that is evil on planet earth is a crock. To continue this discussion with someone that is so blinded by the myth that they themselves cannot look for facts beyond the ones presented at one-sided symposiums is a waste of time as well. PHd's are a waste of time when the only way to get one is to drink the same kool-aide as the Professors that pass them out. Wake up and think for yourself.

If you're interested in a technical debate I'm ready. Do you want to go there? I'm happy to start a new thread.

nooshinjohn

jcandy wrote: »

If you're interested in a technical debate I'm ready. Do you want to go there? I'm happy to start a new thread.

Great idea... start a new thread so we can Google-war each other with facts.:rolleyes:

The fact behind Climate Science is that we still don't have a clue, and BOTH sides are dealing with hypotheticals and speculation.

BTW... this is not what this thread is supposed to be about, so can we get back to the original intent please?


Peace.

cnh

Let's agree to return to the topic at hand! tonyb, called me on this as well, and I was only too happy to right my digressions. Of course, it goes without saying that many issues are intertwined (such as poverty and eduation) and that's why it's so easy to swerve off course, especially in these times.

I, too, would be happy to see a separate thread on climate change...one of my colleagues has written a number of books about the History of Weather? Also, I realize as one of those with that terminal degree that is being bad-mouthed, that America has a long history of anti-intellectualism. We value 'equality' and believe in it and defend it fiercely...the idea of 'experts' disturbs us when they deal with issues that 'we' think are not the province of 'experts'. But would you have America's University and College students taught by individuals who have NO training or certification in their field of expertise?

Now, back to our coverage of why education is a problem in America; as well as possible 'solutions'?

cnh

jcandy

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The fact behind Climate Science is that we still don't have a clue, and BOTH sides are dealing with hypotheticals and speculation.

You are 100% wrong. There is a firm scientific consensus on the matter.

The most basic property of an atmosphere is to raise the temperature of a planet significantly above the Stefan-Boltzmann blackbody temperature. In the case of the earth, the S-B temperature is 0F and the actual temperature is +50F. As the composition of the atmosphere changes so too do both the (1) average temperature, (2) fluctuations about the mean. How could it not? So, please explain the mechanism by which CO2 is exempt from this process.

O.K. I promise this is my last post on the subject of climate in this thread.

megasat16

Anyone seen this article?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2056610,00.html

steveinaz

America is going to see better days...soon. Tea anyone?

stubby

This is going to sound unpatriotic and perhaps even a bit dumbed-down, but why don't we, the "melting pot" of the world, look at effective education systems around the world and use them as models to form a more perfect system of our own.

Almost too simple. And it will never happen. Too much pride on both sides of the aisle.

nooshinjohn

Want to restore education.... simple enough. Dump ALL of the social engineering crap and get back to the core disciplines. "Sally Has Two Mommies" and the "Cultural Significance of Woodstock", have no place in the education of grade schoolers or College campuses, respectively.

The role of the parent cannot be forgotten either. If your kids are being taught more about how to be a good "citizen" than about how to think, it is time to vote with your feet. The choices are home-schooled, private schools that share your values, or to go to every town school board meeting and make your voice heard at the ballot box. Regardless of your choice, stand for something and let your kids see you do so. Let them understand that as adults, we need to stand on principle for what is right.

Bottom line is to stop putting up with the same old line of BS that they need more of your money to make it better. They need less of it, and they need to scrap any organization, institution, or rules that prevent them from getting the job done.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.


-Thomas Jefferson

brettw22

is this still being allowed? wow.......as if the initial post wasn't enough to get it nixed.....lord knows that this thread wasn't started randomly.....

tonyb

jcandy wrote: »

I wouldn't use the expression feeble-minded; under-educated is more appropriate. People in this country are also very vocal and convinced about various facts of the matter in evolution and climate change. What tends to unify denialists in both cases is the lack of education, whereas the people with Ph.Ds tend to see eye-to-eye.

QUOTE]

Now that has to be some of the biggest B.S. I've heard around here in a long time.
BTW-How the heck did we go from education to global warming ??

Brett- the conversation has been civil and lots of good points presented, until recently that is.
What say we get back on track gents.

DMara

You asked about education in this country?
:biggrin: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116890 :biggrin:

markmarc

Back on track, here goes....

I know a lot of people believe vouchers are a cure-all for education. But, I want to point out that the success that many private schools have could very well be lost if vouchers cover the entire cost of a child's education. Private schools would become a dumping ground much like public schools are today for students of parents who refuse to do their part. As I have said before, private schools succeed because parents are involved as they feel the direct pain of writing the tuition check each month, therefore, they make sure homework is done, conferences are attended, and support the school's discipline policies. With vouchers some schools would gladly accept the gov't payment and not even see the potential consequences.

We've had this hypothetical conversation in the lunchroom at my parochial school and figured that the only way to avoid the pitfall would be to either charge an extra $1k above the voucher, or require massive number of volunteer hours.

BlueFox

Who needs an education when sport and entertainment figures are glorified, while those who get an education are scorned, ridiculed, called elitist, etc.?

The industry I work in is easily 90% Indian and Chinese H-1Bs, and green card immigrants. Why? Well, the party line is there are not anywhere near enough American college grads with computer science degrees. While there might be an element of truth to that, I suspect cheap labor is more appealing.

Of course now people are seeing their college educated parents laid off because their job is outsourced. And what do we hear from business? We can't find any college grads so we have to outsource all these jobs, or hire the H-1Bs.

Education. Damned if you, and damned if you don't.

tonyb

markmarc wrote: »

Back on track, here goes....

I know a lot of people believe vouchers are a cure-all for education. But, I want to point out that the success that many private schools have could very well be lost if vouchers cover the entire cost of a child's education. Private schools would become a dumping ground much like public schools are today for students of parents who refuse to do their part. As I have said before, private schools succeed because parents are involved as they feel the direct pain of writing the tuition check each month, therefore, they make sure homework is done, conferences are attended, and support the school's discipline policies. With vouchers some schools would gladly accept the gov't payment and not even see the potential consequences.

We've had this hypothetical conversation in the lunchroom at my parochial school and figured that the only way to avoid the pitfall would be to either charge an extra $1k above the voucher, or require massive number of volunteer hours.

A very good point my man. At the very least though,a voucher system would offer more choice. Just a piece of a puzzle to solving the growing problem. Maybe for the sake of further discussion, we should break it down into 2 catagories.
The system itself- if you had to start from scratch, how would you build an education system.
Finance- how would you pay for it, and how would you collect the coin.

Mandates require a certain level of public education from states. Not sure if that harms or helps the problems. My original thought is having someone 3,000 miles away set the standards just doesn't seem logical. Though I realize some standards are needed, I just think the individual state should determine that. That way, control is more local as to what those standards should be.
Some have floated the idea of incorporating the costs of public schools into a sales tax. That way,everyone pays, not just those who own real estate. Sounds interesting,just can't imagine the size of that tax though.
While we all agree that parent involvment is crucial to the results,you can't force someone to be a good parent. That eliment will always exist. So lets talk about what can be done in the real world.

steveinaz

Vouchers were never intended to cover the entire tuition, they simply allow parents to choose the school their children attend, and privatize the process. If vouchers were in full force, the competition aspect created by privatizing would be working for us better in the form of more competitive rates.

I'm a supporter of voucher system/privatized schools, as well as a voucher based healthcare system for catastrophic care (supported by a federal sales tax).

I hate to say this (being a DOD Fed worker), but it's the truth---If you want to screw something up, let the Government manage it. Governement has it's place, and it's performance in these roles is very good (believe it or not) it's just way too far reaching right now.

tonyb

I tend to be leary of a federal tax Steve. The government is great at collecting coin,it's what happens to it after that worries me.

I forgot what country it was, but I remember that they make you pick your profession early on,then tailor your education towards it. So if you have a desire to be a lawyer, your not wasting time on basket weaving 101. Sounds nice, but alittle too one dimensional. I guess for some professions that would work, kinda like trade schools.

Lets not start off by assuming x amount from uncle sam. Lets say ground up,in your state only, build a system,and pay for it.
Every system appears to have to be divided into 2. Private and public. Maybe we should identify what attracts those to private schools,and how we can make public schools more attractive.
Private schools seem to have a better quality to them. From the teachers, the studies, down to the parents. Maybe because they attract the higher earning parents, or maybe because those parents have invested coin in their childs success.
Public schools also have some great teachers, but appear to be farther and fewer between than private schools. Quality is a word not normally associated with public schools. The schools themselves seem to be run down a bit. Class size can also be a problem. Of coarse, what they teach is a sticking point to many too. I also think diversity programs have had an opposite effect in some area's. Change doesn't come easy in the public system and when it does, that change means more money. I think we can safely say that throwing more money at the problem does zero. Also public schools seem willing to pass under achievers without raising a brow. Could be because finances are tied to it in some ways. One thing seems to be apparent, most parents are happier with the education their child gets from a private school than a public one.
If any of you guys jumped from the public system to the private, please list your reasons and any benefits you may have experienced.
My own experience in the public domain, from 2 kids that went through it are somewhat mixed. After years of having to send my kids to a not so nice school,in a not so nice area, they finally built a brand new school in my area, which at the time was a nice upper middle class neighborhood. Never liked the first school, everything they taught was agenda driven, not alot of attention to the basics. New school opens up, my taxes go up to pay for it, considerably, then we get bussed in kids from the first school. Within one year, 5 trailors where bought due to overcrowding. Then why buss kids in then ? Both schools had some mighty fine teachers, but again,even the new school was agenda driven, and the basics needed to move on to college was more an after thought. The school boards held sway over what was to be taught. Complaints meant zero to them. Why ? Because they knew you had no power, no say in the matter. You were a flea to be swatted away when you questioned them. Sure, you could get mad,pull your kid out of school, then what ? Private school ? Hell, go ahead, they still get your money if your kid goes to public school or not. Not so in a private school. You pull your kid, they lose the tuition. This type of system we have in the public sector breeds arrogance.
Thats why I say who ever controls the coin, controls the schools. Best to have at least a good chunk of that control in the parents hands, thats the only way real change can happen in our education system.

megasat16

I am all in for reforming education and building new and more efficient education infrastructure but I neglectfully have to say nothing will ever be done about it other than it'll be getting worse in a few years to come.

Just like everything else, our education system / infrastructure is old and beyond means of just getting patched up. We need to build new means and creative about new education system.

Besides, we have been broke for so long at State and Federal Government levels. There will be no growth for the economy funded by debt. Thus, there will be no education system overhauled by State and Federal Government. And you can't expect any voucher or subsidizing from any Government level in the near future unless our economy turns 100% in different direction and we cut down the spending, cut the debt and interest payments on current debt levels; etc.

Once in a while, yahoo puts up a news worthy article. Watch the clip from the link.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/got-%28more%29-stimulus-bill-gross-doesn%27t-think-the-economy-is-%22self-sustaining%22-536002.html?tickers=tlt,tbt,^dji,^gspc,spy,udn&sec=topStories&pos=2&asset=&ccode=

cnh

If I'm not mistaken, Maine and N. Hampshire have had a 'voucher' system option for over a century--the reason being not to bolster the choices of those who can 'afford' to PAY more for a good private school (always a problem with conservative machinations for a voucher system, as far as I can tell), but because there were NOT enough public schools available in low population areas so that the state actually helped provide the equivalent in education for those in the program.

What I am saying is that where I live 'very very very' few families could ever afford to send their kids to a GOOD private school even if they received a reasonable TAX break or as much as half the money directly. They just don't have the income.

Unless a 'voucher' system addresses the 'lower-middle class, working class and the poor' I find it difficult to support such a system. To me vouchers must provide a benefit for those who MOST need them not simply give breaks to parents who have NO real need for them?

cnh

cnh

Correction above Vermont and Maine.....not N.H.

The oldest continuing school voucher programs existing today in the United States are the Town Tuitioning programs in Vermont and Maine, beginning in 1869[2] and 1873[3] respectively. Because some towns in these states operate neither local high schools nor elementary schools, students in these towns "are eligible for a voucher to attend [either] public schools in other towns or non-religious private schools. In these cases, the 'sending' towns pay tuition directly to the 'receiving' schools.

cnh (at Logan Airport...getting ready to skip over the Atlantic!)

nooshinjohn

This sums it up nicely...

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