Oh no....

Ricardo

steveinaz wrote: »

I want to re-emphasize that I have no problem with the Mexican people; they are not the problem. They are a symptom of the problem The problem being lack of enforcement of existing laws, intended to secure our borders. It's not a "hater" thread, it's more about other states minding their own business, and trying to force their ideas (by way of boycott) on other states because it doesn't jive with their political agenda.

Steve, I don't think that the generalization of "Mexicans being a symptom of the problem" sounds right. Nothing wrong with being Mexican. I am not Mexican, but if I was I would be proud.

kevhed72

bobman1235 wrote: »

It's a seriously flawed "argument" anyway. The reason illegals can do jobs that Americans can't is because they can do them for slave wages. A legal American trying to do those jobs would have to be paid at least minimum wage. Those are protections that we have put in to make sure people aren't overworked. The same people who institute higher and higher minimum wages for lawful Americans are the ones that insist on how necessary the illegal immigrant work is. It's one of the biggest racist hypocrisies out there - the people pretending to "care" about illegal workers are fine with them working ungodly hours in ungodly conditions, so long as they get cheap produce. What a joke.

Bobman is correct. And the news coverage and threads such as this are somewhat unproductive. Nobody is asking why these people are entering the country illegally and determining the root causes for them coming here illegally. If we need these people in our workforce (which we do), lets fix the process. But, I guess fixing the process would be too difficult, so here we are....

steveinaz

BottomFeeder wrote: »

I found this article to be quite informative & recommend it as a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html

Steve: do you know if AZ has any plan to go after the businesses and employers who hire illegals?

Nothing from the New York Times impresses me, the political slant of that article couldn't be anymore blantant if it tried.

The law is in place that businesses will be fined substantially, wether it's enforced effectively, I don't know.

steveinaz

Ricardo wrote: »

Steve, I don't think that the generalization of "Mexicans being a symptom of the problem" sounds right. Nothing wrong with being Mexican. I am not Mexican, but if I was I would be proud.

You're reading "into" to my comment far too deeply. Again, I have NO problem with the Mexican people.

Ricardo

steveinaz wrote: »

You're reading "into" to my comment far too deeply. Again, I have NO problem with the Mexican people.

I know. I just think that comment can be easily misinterpreted. We are not talking about a specific origin here. The problem is not where people come from. The problem is their condition (illegals), and they come from many places.

Huck344

I-SIG wrote: »

Also, 500mW of coal is a little baby power plant by baseload generation standards, so that's nothing to brag about unless you enjoy the higher prices for all those reasons I won't get into here....

Wes

I never claimed that 500MW was a lot. I'm in the industry and know that 500MW can barely power a small town. I was responding to the claim that California had no coal power. Arizona has MORE coal power because you have MORE coal. If a state doesn't have the natural resources, there isn't much that can be done. It's kind of like if I ripped on Arizona because you don't have nearly as much hydro electric power as California or nearly as many oil refineries (does Arizona have any oil refineries?).

For the record, I actually support the legislative action that AZ took. My biggest beef is that you all are blaming the ENTIRE state of California instead of the few politicians who put this into effect in order to get some face time.

Kex

steveinaz wrote: »

Nothing from the New York Times impresses me, the political slant of that article couldn't be anymore blantant if it tried. ...

Much like the political slant of this thread, you might say ... in fact, probably less so (I'm not going to bother to read it) and neither have any business in an audio forum.

BottomFeeder

steveinaz wrote: »

Nothing from the New York Times impresses me, the political slant of that article couldn't be anymore blantant if it tried.

The law is in place that businesses will be fined substantially, wether it's enforced effectively, I don't know.

Uhm, huh? Did you read the article? It's in complete support of what AZ is doing.

PhantomOG

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tonyb

Kex wrote: »

Much like the political slant of this thread, you might say ... in fact, probably less so (I'm not going to bother to read it) and neither have any business in an audio forum.

It's only political when/if you choose to make it that way. I don't see enforcing the law as political. Choosing which laws to enforce and which ones not....that maybe political, and it seems to me those who are making it political,are politicians,go figure.

steveinaz

Bottomfeeder-

Ahh hell, my bad...you're right. Don't I feel like an idiot. I saw NYT, and the bolded article phrases and figured it would be typical NYT banter. I suck.

What's that old saying?: "better to eat crow while its still warm..."

steveinaz

Ricardo wrote: »

I know. I just think that comment can be easily misinterpreted. We are not talking about a specific origin here. The problem is not where people come from. The problem is their condition (illegals), and they come from many places.

Interpretation is in the ears of the beholder, I don't "PC" things up. But you do make a good point that it isn't just about Mexicans, it's about illegal aliens in general--I absolutely agree.

steveinaz

Kex wrote: »

Much like the political slant of this thread, you might say ... in fact, probably less so (I'm not going to bother to read it) and neither have any business in an audio forum.

I miss-read the article. The NYT was actually supporting Arizona. I'm still shocked at that...

Kex, it's simply about being committed to something. Don't make laws if you intend on just looking the other way. Arizona decides to begin enforcing, and California wants to cry foul. It's none of California's business how Arizona chooses to govern, plain & simple.

Kex

tonyb wrote: »

It's only political when/if you choose to make it that way. ...

Actually, the whole thing is a political ploy from the start, in an election year (as somebody already pointed out earlier in the thread) since the law will likely not survive a legal challenge. By the same token, the California boycott is meaningless.

BIZILL

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I agree that stricter laws need to be in place regarding illegal immigrants...but I've got better things to do than sit around worrying about politics. There's a whole world of miracles out there...I'm not going to spend my life being pissed off at politicians.




Not really.

I pay my taxes, but I generally work for cash, under the table. One of the perks of owning your own business. I can also bring my line of work with me wherever I go, and start it back up with relatively NO overhead costs.

Hell, last year I didn't even make enough to have to pay taxes, and that's just fine with me. I made all the money that I needed to get by. I ain't ever gonna be rich, nor do I really want to be. I don't want to become a slave to my possessions, like so many people are these days.

So, I will definitely have fun, thanks for your well wishes.:)

I'll be hanging out with my friends in Cali, chilling at the beach, hiking through the redwoods and climbing mountains...and with a guitar slung over my shoulder the whole time(well, maybe not when I'm climbing a mountain...lol). It's true that the greatest things in life are free.

That's what life is about for me. I don't spend it worrying about politics and whether or not this state is going to boycott this thing from that state because these people aren't supposed to be here. It just isn't worth it. I've got better things to do.

complacent much? reminds me of a co-worker. extremely intelligent guy, but complacent. he trusts the government always makes decisions that will ensure his well-being. ignorance is bliss for some i suppose...

steveinaz

If you don't run the gub'ment, the gub'ment will run you. That's for sure.

Ricardo

BIZILL wrote: »

...... he trusts the government always makes decisions that will ensure his well-being. ignorance is bliss for some i suppose...

steveinaz wrote: »

If you don't run the gub'ment, the gub'ment will run you. That's for sure.

+1,000,000. Morover, many countries have suddenly woken up to a communist/authoritarian government because of the passiveness of the "thinking" population.

dkg999

I like the fact that other minorities are now protesting that the border you cross shouldn't give you a free pass compared to the effort they went through to be in the US legally. In fact some are questioning if Hispanic and African-American are really minorities in the US at this point and why the focus is on them.

madmax

I have been looking for something I need so I can buy it from an AZ distributer. Eff their boycott.

steveinaz

Buy a case of Poore Brothers kettle chips--best damn potato chips on the planet, and an Arizona original.

hearingimpared

NEVER do I put any creedence in what is printed in the NY Times, however, this hits the nail on the head in no uncertain terms.

Quote from the NY Times article that Bottomfeeder posted! Loud applause!

In sum, the Arizona law hardly creates a police state. It takes a measured, reasonable step to give Arizona police officers another tool when they come into contact with illegal aliens during their normal law enforcement duties.

And it’s very necessary: Arizona is the ground zero of illegal immigration. Phoenix is the hub of human smuggling and the kidnapping capital of America, with more than 240 incidents reported in 2008. It’s no surprise that Arizona’s police associations favored the bill, along with 70 percent of Arizonans.

President Obama and the Beltway crowd feel these problems can be taken care of with “comprehensive immigration reform” — meaning amnesty and a few other new laws. But we already have plenty of federal immigration laws on the books, and the typical illegal alien is guilty of breaking many of them. What we need is for the executive branch to enforce the laws that we already have.

Unfortunately, the Obama administration has scaled back work-site enforcement and otherwise shown it does not consider immigration laws to be a high priority. Is it any wonder the Arizona Legislature, at the front line of the immigration issue, sees things differently?

BTW I don't see Steve's post concerning "the symptom of the problem" as racist however, Ric does have a point on how it could be misconstrued.

dkg999

There may be hope for the NYT! Of course they are not stupid and change is driven by revenue, and they hire some really good analysts to tell them what their market is, how it's changing, and what they want to hear.

comfortablycurt

hearingimpared wrote: »

Curt, I'm curious, do you vote in any elections?

Yes, I absolutely do. I vote in essentially every election. Though I'll admit that I don't get too worked up over who Dixon's next Township Supervisor is going to be.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I know you are much younger than me Curt, and I do not want to be seen as busting your balls, BUT I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that in the past 20 years, this country has taken a sharp nosedive with regards to our liberties and freedoms being stepped on. Meanwhile those that come here illegally are given education, medical care, food, housing, cash, utility bills paid for, and in some places even cell phones.

The politicials are those responsible for the mess and are not in any hurry to fix it, as those that come here illegally, are 50% (Thanks SEIUa nd ACORN) of the time voting anyway, again against the law, for those that protect them, and right now they need every vote the can get.


Immigration should be about the law and not politics. Arizona has done nothing more than agree to do the job of the Fed and enforce the law.

Curt my friend, I know you are young, but it is time for you to go back and look at the history books and see what liberties have aready been lost since the 1950's due to progressive activisim and their nutjob supporters in government and the courts. It is the young people of this country that need to become informed and stand up before it is to late. The American Experience is the reason for much of what is in this world that we enjoy today. This nation is a MIRACLE in every sense of the word, a shining city upon a hill, and it will be gone if we as her guardians fail to stand up and protect her.

Generally, I know more about how much freedom we've lost than people that are twice my age. Just because I ignore what's going on, doesn't mean I'm not aware of it. I just simply don't care. Like I said, I have much better things to do than sit around and worry about politics.

I do agree in regards to the immigration laws. Do I care enough to actually do anything about it? No.

I'm one of the youngsters that does take a stand against corruption. However, this is not one of the things I'm passionate about. There are other laws in place that I find absolutely ridiculous, that I won't get into here...but I'm more worried about that than immigration laws.

BIZILL wrote: »

complacent much? reminds me of a co-worker. extremely intelligent guy, but complacent. he trusts the government always makes decisions that will ensure his well-being. ignorance is bliss for some i suppose...

I have essentially no trust whatsoever for the government. In fact, I generally have an almost overly paranoid distrust for them.

Ignorance? Not on my part. It's more like "indifference is bliss".





I'm gonna go listen to my 2 channel rig now and not worry about the gradual decay of the US. We're slowly flushing ourselves down the toilet.

nooshinjohn

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Ignorance? Not on my part. It's more like "indifference is bliss".





I'm gonna go listen to my 2 channel rig now and not worry about the gradual decay of the US. We're slowly flushing ourselves down the toilet.

Attitudes such as this are WHY we are "flushing ourselves down the toilet."

Again man, I love you like a brother from another mother, but indifference will lead exactly to the same place it led Marie Antoinette and Louis the 16th....

This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering... And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression." Thomas Jefferson

Time to take the blinders off my friend. Indifference is root cause of all the troubles we have in this country today.

steveinaz

California will be a perfect fit for Curt, and I mean that with the best of intentions.

Kex

Lack of support for radical agendas (and the increasingly widespread promotion of hate speech) should not be confused with indifference.

This, BTW, is not a comment about the new AZ law, so flames will not be necessary.

ryanjoachim

Hmm...anyone know where the term "beaners" came from?

I don't get it...

nooshinjohn

Kex wrote: »

Lack of support for radical agendas (and the increasingly widespread promotion of hate speech) should not be confused with indifference.

This, BTW, is not a comment about the new AZ law, so flames will not be necessary.

The only radical agenda here is support of the law and the respect of the individual rights of the citizenry of the United States. Show me the hate speech. You folks on the left always run to racism and "hate-speech" in an effort to silence reasoned and intelligent debate of the issues. Is it a radical agenda that says follow the law, or is it a radical agenda that says the law should not be followed for reasons of "social justice".

Tell you what Kex, and not to start confrontation with you, but I challenge you to contact any Embasy from ANY country on this planet (or whatever planet you choose)and tell them you wish to migrate there. I am not advocating that you leave, rather asking that you find out what the legal requirements are for becoming a citizen of that nation, then come back here and tell us what you find. I already know the answer for many of the counties you could choose.

Japan will tell you never and if you were to live there all your life and die on their soil your body would never be allowed burial there. Most other asian nations are the same. Mexico will say sure come on down, but you cannot own a home or property, and if we decide you are a burden (food, medical care, etc.) you can take your **** back to where you came from.

Only here, The United States Of America, can you be granted ALL of the rights, freedoms and liberties (including becoming Governor of a state!!) that generations of Americans have fought, bled, and died for. To allow these rights to those that come here legally is a gift that should be treasured and honored. To simply give the same rights to those that sneek in under cover of darkness, to give them to those that do not wish to become a part of the fabric of our nation and embrace OUR way of life and follow OUR laws, is nothing more than stealing from those that have earned it, and it deminishes the value of what it means to be an American.

dkg999

^^^^^ or diminishes the accomplishments of those who came across a different border and took the initiative and effort to legally be in the US and/or become legal US citizens.

steveinaz

Here is EXACTLY my fear:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100430/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_protests

Now, the tail is waggin the dog. We have groups that want to undo our laws governing border security. Who is running this country?

Maybe we could have all the supporters of illegal immigrants sign a paper stating they they will provide the tax revenue necessary to support their cause? THEN, you'd hear some REAL crying.