Oh no....

tonyb

virtualdean wrote: »

This sounds like classic revisionist history written by the victors.

Why is it when some cannot accept historical facts, that it is deemed
"revisionist history" ? Plus that theory of it always being written by the victors is not always true. You can find history from both sides if one cares to look. What goes into a history book though,taught to our kids is a whole 'nutha story in itself. But we are getting off track of this thread so we should just stop here and bring it back on track of Arizona,and illegal imigration.

If one does not value a U.S. citizenship, then why have borders at all? If a criminal is afforded the same rights as the legal, what value is there to be legal ? Is it,or is it not a crime to enter this country without the proper documentation? If border patrol, or any other government agency can ask for proof of citizenship,why can't our local law enforcement people? Why do we call them "law enforcement" when they are not allowed to enforce the law ? So by some peoples thinking,if you can get past the border unchecked,it's all good then? HA HA HA I win,you lose? Common sense dictates this should not be the case. Common sense also dictates the obvious. It's all about getting votes rather than secureing our borders. Some are venting anger at a misguided target, and easier target mind you,but still misguided none the less.
Arizona officials took an oath, our federal government officials took an oath, is it not our duty as citizens to make sure they uphold what they swore to do? Or,are we at a place now where we like to pick and choose what we like to uphold and what we don't? Yeah, I ask many more questions than give answers to but there is a method to my madness.:)

hearingimpared

tonyb wrote: »

Why is it when some cannot accept historical facts, that it is deemed
"revisionist history" ? Plus that theory of it always being written by the victors is not always true. You can find history from both sides if one cares to look. What goes into a history book though,taught to our kids is a whole 'nutha story in itself. But we are getting off track of this thread so we should just stop here and bring it back on track of Arizona,and illegal imigration.

If one does not value a U.S. citizenship, then why have borders at all? If a criminal is afforded the same rights as the legal, what value is there to be legal ? Is it,or is it not a crime to enter this country without the proper documentation? If border patrol, or any other government agency can ask for proof of citizenship,why can't our local law enforcement people? Why do we call them "law enforcement" when they are not allowed to enforce the law ? So by some peoples thinking,if you can get past the border unchecked,it's all good then? HA HA HA I win,you lose? Common sense dictates this should not be the case. Common sense also dictates the obvious. It's all about getting votes rather than secureing our borders. Some are venting anger at a misguided target, and easier target mind you,but still misguided none the less.
Arizona officials took an oath, our federal government officials took an oath, is it not our duty as citizens to make sure they uphold what they swore to do? Or,are we at a place now where we like to pick and choose what we like to uphold and what we don't? Yeah, I ask many more questions than give answers to but there is a method to my madness.:)

It sure is Tony BUT and there is the big BUT we can't hurt anyone's feelings, it is not the way things should be handled. . . . cut me a break!:rolleyes: There is no common sense applied only the feelings of people are considered! UGH!

BTW I was giving our past history as an example, extreme though it might have been, of how important it is to secure our borders to protect our citizens as well as our country.

tonyb

Feelings...Really Joe? You maybe right,but my feelings get hurt everytime a reach around is done to my wallet by the government. Nobody cares about my feelings now do they?

apphd

While California is taking a lot of the heat on this I don't think anyone here was saying everyone in Cali is to blame. There are a lot of politicians and people across the US who feel AZ is wrong. Again I say if you don't like it, don't go to AZ. As so many have pointed out it is just a matter of enforcing the law of the land that has been the law for some time now. I find it interesting that a state that has made a stance to follow law, is getting so much heat. Where was everyone when I believe it was the mayor of San Fran made it illegal for city LEOs to enforce or aid federal agencies in enforcing immigration laws?

While this controversy/debate is focused around immigration, it really is a matter of security of the US and its borders that is at stake in my opinion. Whether it be crime in general, such as drugs, theft, and murder, or terrorism, the need for tighter border security is a vital interest for all of us. This does not include closing the borders with motes filled with acid, just more control and knowledge of who is crossing our borders.

wayne3burk

Really, it's a matter of economics and the laws of nature. Nature abhors a vacuum. And U.S. Citizens abhor working for minimum wage.

When was the last time you tried living on $1265 a month?

As long as there are chicken plants in Maryland and Delaware, and tables to be bussed and dishes to washed at TGI Friday's. And baby's to be sat and lawns to be edged....

we're gonna have migrant workers - documented, legal, temporary, or otherwise, here to do the menial jobs that are beneath natural born american citizens to do.

Just my 730 cents an hours worth....

-- wayne --

wayne3burk

xcapri79 wrote: »

Whatever happened to following and defending the law in this country?
From Wall Street to Chicken plants, why is wrong now the "new right"?

The Arizona law is designed to enforce existing law against illegal immigrants and they bent over backwards to ensure it is fair to the legal immigrants and citizens of this country.

I don't necessarily disagree with you - about arizona just trying to enforce existing law - and trying to bend over backwards to be fair to legal immigrants and US citizens.

But until we find 20 million american workers to replace the existing illegal immigrant work force, I don't think it would be wise, feasible or possible to deport them all tomorrow.

-- wayne --

nooshinjohn

wayne3burk wrote: »

But until we find 20 million american workers to replace the existing illegal immigrant work force, I don't think it would be wise, feasible or possible to deport them all tomorrow.

-- wayne --

Last I checked, we had close to twenty million unemployed right here at home.... We need to start teaching self reliance and work ethic in this country rather than sex-ed, Sally has two Mommies, and how to achive the highest score possible on Grand Theft Auto IV.

MacLeod

San Francisco is boycotted Arizona. Easy solution-round up all the illegals but onstead of deporting them, send them to San Francisco. Win win.

Illegalls do jobs Americans wont do? No. They work for the wages Americans wont work for. I'll be glad to do those jobs, just not at $2/hr.

wayne3burk

well at least they are paying Social Security and income taxes -- if the faked out employers are faked out with social security cards.

but who knows -- a couple of years ago a Hormel meatpacking plant in Iowa or Colorado was raided and all the "real" illegals were rounded up and carted off. And you're right, Hormel is still in business and they are probably and should be paying union wages for those menial and dangerous tasks that illegals are willing to do for less wages.

If nothing else all those illegals who live in Arizona who feel threatened by this new law will migrate to another less hostile state like say.... texas or oklahoma or arkansas, etc, etc.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out

:)wayne:(

hearingimpared

wayne3burk wrote: »

well at least they are paying Social Security and income taxes -- if the faked out employers are faked out with social security cards.

but who knows -- a couple of years ago a Hormel meatpacking plant in Iowa or Colorado was raided and all the "real" illegals were rounded up and carted off. And you're right, Hormel is still in business and they are probably and should be paying union wages for those menial and dangerous tasks that illegals are willing to do for less wages.

If nothing else all those illegals who live in Arizona who feel threatened by this new law will migrate to another less hostile state like say.... texas or oklahoma or arkansas, etc, etc.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out

:)wayne:(

Hopefully, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas will follow AZ's example. That will give a pretty good idea of who's who when droves of illegals start inundating neighboring states.

nooshinjohn

wayne3burk wrote: »

And you're right, Hormel is still in business and they are probably and should be paying union wages for those menial and dangerous tasks that illegals are willing to do for less wages.

Unions are part of the problem these days and not the solution. When they tell their membership that they would rather the plant close and the jobs go somewhere else instead of take a 10% pay cut, who are they really looking out for?

steveinaz

Cut & dry solutions rarely work, that's why a comprehensive, well thought out plan needs to be implemented. It also needs to address our economic concerns. That's why I don't have a problem fast-tracking and/or assembling some sort of criteria to grant limited amnesty--however, still requiring a follow thru of full citizenship that must be met. We don't want to cut our nose off, despite our face; but gradually phase-in complete compliance. But number 1 is still securing the border first; you have to stop the flow first, then deal with those currently in the US. Throwing a bunch of people in jail is only going to hurt the US.

ohskigod

F1nut wrote: »

Wow, way to explain your opinion.

FYI, everything in nooshinjohn's post is factual.

since when are facts important in this day and age?


oh, my .02. yaaaay Arizona.

nooshinjohn

steveinaz wrote: »

We don't want to cut our nose off TO SPITE our face....

Fixed it for YA!:p

madmax

wayne3burk wrote: »

When was the last time you tried living on $1265 a month?

I live in a pretty upscale house with room for a family of six and 3 car garage, buy my cars with cash and live like I want for $500 more than that per month. The majority of my wages goes into savings. With that said I can tell you that in MD the government has made sure they have their hands in your pockets for every freakin move you make and it is much harder to live on that amount. The government is whats making the illegals necessary.

Echosphere

madmax wrote: »

I live in a pretty upscale house with room for a family of six and 3 car garage, buy my cars with cash and live like I want for $500 more than that per month. The majority of my wages goes into savings. With that said I can tell you that in MD the government has made sure they have their hands in your pockets for every freakin move you make and it is much harder to live on that amount. The government is whats making the illegals necessary.

Exactly how?

wayne3burk

alrighty then....

Rent in Maryland is 1300 dollars a month for a smallish 3 bedroom house with one bath, a living room, dining room and a kitchen. -- no garage.

Average Utility bill in Baltimore is $300 a month.

Lets not forget food, and car insurance, and gas that runs $2.75 a gallon, and commuting 30 miles each way to work and back a day.

maybe we should all move to northern Colorado.

I'm in

--wayne--

madmax

wayne3burk wrote: »

maybe we should all move to northern Colorado.

I'm in

--wayne--

Come and enjoy! Its cheaper to live here today than Frederick MD was back 20 years ago. I remember moving to MD and paying a few thousand to get my cars registered and licensed and drivers license, emissions, inspection etc. Here in CO I walked out with a bill for like $120... Geesh, I kept asking where I pay the rest at and got blank stares.

Exactly how?
House payment 1K, gasoline $50, gas/electric $68, water $35, tracphone $7.50, insurance $120, and about $470 for everything else.
Everything is high efficiency down to the LED light bulbs, insulation etc. Sure, sometimes I spend a little more if its a really cold month or an emergency comes up. What really helps is that I don't owe a fee, fine, tax, levy etc for every aspect of my life. Small government is a thing of the past. I watched it happen in MD, I'm sure it will catch up with us here at some point.

xj4094dg

As a California native (a very rare condition, by the way), I have seen it transform from a predominantly white state to a very mixed state.

The economy here is in the **** for sure but it is still a huge economy and its inertia alone will keep it alive long enough to come back if the rest of the economy does.

The law in Arizona is having an interesting effect on the coming elections in that ALOT of lazy American citizens of Hispanic descent are registering to vote just because of this law. These citizens are mostly first generation Americans who have had it much easier than their immigrant parents but had no interest in the political process because they didn't have an example like this to illustrate how valuable their votes could be.

These protests and rallies against the law are signing up record amounts of NEW voters who will change the conservative political scene that has existed in Arizona forever, and is a large part of the scene in California (There are still alot of conservatives here believe it or not). They have "awaken a sleeping giant" of never-before-seen voters. We all know that scares the hell out of every politician.

My grandfather was an Arizona Highway Patrol Officer. He was a 3rd generation American citizen of Hispanic descent (Spain).

If he found someone committing any crime he would arrest them for sure. His world was black and white when it came to the law. He moved to California eventually.

Talk all the **** about California you want, but after the Rose Parade and the Rose Bowl every year, many who are watching while its snowing and or miserable where they are, move here.

I would welcome a similar bill in California to make it illegal for anyone from any other state, not just any other country, to move here.

but that would be California dreamin' indeed, and I'd be writing this from Arizona.

Its a beautiful day here Los Angeles and the Lakers are winning and the Suns suck. Life is sweet!

lightman1

Are you neo-fascist freaks still prattling on about this?

hearingimpared

lightman1 wrote: »

Are you neo-fascist freaks still prattling on about this?

Since Tom doesn't seem to around . . . SHUT UP RUSS!:p:D

nooshinjohn

hearingimpared wrote: »

Since Tom doesn't seem to around . . . SHUT UP RUSS!:p:D

I think playing around all those high voltage lines has toasted his brain cells.:eek:;):D

hearingimpared

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I think playing around all those high voltage lines has toasted his brain cells.:eek:;):D

You mean cauterized! Shut up Russ!:eek::D:p

nooshinjohn

Joe... I must appologize for my erronious post. I made the assumption that Russ has a brain to begin with. I will check my facts next time before I post.:p;)

lightman1

Up yers Joe and John!! I'm heading out to have a nice helping 13kv for breakfast.. bare handed!

nooshinjohn

lightman1 wrote: »

Up yers Joe and John!! I'm heading out to have a nice helping 13kv for breakfast.. bare handed!

Now that's a real man for ya Joe... a stupid man, but a man nonetheless.:eek:;):D

nooshinjohn

Keiko wrote: »

Immigration Laws:

1 There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
3. All government business will be conducted in our language.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
6 Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will be deported.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
8. If foreigners come here and buy land, options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
9.. Foreigners may have no protests, no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted and when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Too strict?...... The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO.

Excellent post Mike.:):) It is good to review just how welcoming our friends to the south really are.:rolleyes:

hearingimpared

. . . and these bleeding hearts b*tch about what's going on here with our poor illegals, and our far right leaders are b*tching about the possible affect paying our citizens more than $2/hr will have on our businesses. What a crock of doo doo this whole mess is.

steveinaz

More and more states are rallying to boycott Arizona. Wow...enforce the law, and be punished. We care less about our own people, than we do illegal immigrants, lovely. Where do these people (the opposition) come from? When I joined the Army in 1982, I swore to uphold the Constitution, and be loyal to my Country. It's a shame that the same **** whose freedom I have defended could care less about Duty, Honor, Country.

It'll take another 9/11 for these idiots to wake up, so be sure to thank them when it happens.

nooshinjohn

steveinaz wrote: »

When I joined the Army in 1982, I swore to uphold the Constitution, and be loyal to my Country. It's a shame that the same **** whose freedom I have defended could care less about Duty, Honor, Country.

None of them have read the Constitution, or any of the writings of our founding fathers. To them, the Constitution was written by a bunch of atheistic, rich white slave owners, and therefore is an unfair document that is of little relevance...