Oh no....

steveinaz

It takes more than 1 vote to get the office. California opened itself up to punching bag status by acting holier-than-thou, while unable to maintain it's own equalibrium. Kind of like a person with no kids trying to tell you how to parent. I think (at least for myself) quite a few displeased Californians do alot of venting, but never take any meaningful action--this "helplessness" mind-set gets a little irratating. GO VOTE.

I have known, been friends with many Californians in my 15 years in the Army, and the vast majority of them had this outlook that life just "happens" to them---as if they had no control over it. They would speak of their government as if it were a seperate entity, of which they had no control.

cheddar

I neither voted for nor have the ability to recall any politicians in San Francisco because they aren't my politicians. It'd be like trying to hold people in Indianpolis responsible for any politician nuttiness in Chicago. Maybe people who live in smaller states (size or population) just don't understand just how different people in other parts of the state can be. But like I said, if you have to keep blaming all Californians, carry on, California is a pretty easy target.

madmax

California has its own ideas and ideals. Just look where they are at and ask yourself if that is something you want.

cheddar

I'm well aware of the MANY ideas and ideals that exist in various parts of California from Ronald Reagan Republicans (he was a product of local California politics) to fringe liberals and conservatives. I'm just saying that painting all Californians with such a broad brush is nothing more than scapegoating us for what in all probability is a much more serious threat to Arizona's bill from the federal government (Is everyone conservative attacking California responsible for electing the current President because it takes more than one vote, they didn't step up, etc?)

Keep your anger on the politicians. Turn the heat up on them. Don't think that just because there's a lot of political noise out of San Francisco, Californians aren't just as PO'ed at our politicians as the rest of the country. San Diego is a military town, afterall. My guess is that they probably share many of the same ideas and ideals as Arizona border towns. But San Francisco makes better press.

nooshinjohn

cheddar wrote: »

I'm well aware of the MANY ideas and ideals that exist in various parts of California from Ronald Reagan Republicans (he was a product of local California politics)

This is an inaccurate statement. President Reagan was a product of his times more than anything else. In his role as spokesman for GE, he travelled all over the country and observed the realities of every day life. As the head of the Screen Actors Guild, he saw how rampant Communism/Progressivism had infiltrated the entertainment industry and how the unions shifted their focus from the good of their members to the destruction of the companies themselves. He entered politics not for himself, but because he believed that he could do better, and he was right. California has been in steady decline since he left the governorship, but under his leadership, California thrived...

cheddar

And all the Californians who campaigned, raised money, and elected him governor don't count? They and their descendants didn't all just leave the state. You can't have it both ways...the Screen Actors Guild certainly didn't elect him...and no one company like GE was the source of his political funds.:rolleyes:

Maybe if all the other states stopped sending us your wackos we'd be better off...:p

Huck344

cheddar wrote: »

Maybe if all the other states stopped sending us your wackos we'd be better off...:p

+1000000000. Awesome line. Everyone always gives LA crap for being fake. All the fake people are the ones that moved here from out of state to make it big in Hollywood. Californians that are actually FROM California are good people.

hearingimpared

cheddar wrote: »

And all the Californians who campaigned, raised money, and elected him governor don't count? They and their descendants didn't all just leave the state. You can't have it both ways...the Screen Actors Guild certainly didn't elect him...and no one company like GE was the source of his political funds.:rolleyes:

Maybe if all the other states stopped sending us your wackos we'd be better off...:p

Hahaha, they are magnetically attracted there even though like poles of a magnet oppose.:p:D

juliusbk4

I think the issue is not illegals but the way they are enforcing law. I personally think everyone should absolutely know how to speak english in this country and that's just the way it is, like what tim james spoke of, because it enables illegals to get by in our country, and I consider myself liberal. I think that would be the best way to cutback on illegal immigrants. I think most people, on the left, don't have a problem with a state enforcing the law against illegal aliens, it's how Arizona chooses to enforce, thats the problem. Racial profiling is a slippery slope, and abuse of it is just around the corner. Give someone an inch and they'll take a foot.

Norm Apter

As someone who actually lives in California (I'm not native) rather than someone who likes to vilify it as the source of the nation's problems, I have to jump in here. California is way too big and her population is way too diverse in (political, cultural, social, ethnic) composition to really make any meaningful stereotypes. I won't be living here forever, but its been a great place to reside for the past 6 or 7 years (though as Danny noted the potholes are getting pretty ridiculous!). When I hear about all of the national rage against the state I have to laugh when I think about the quality of life here...there's a big disconnect between the rhetoric and the experience, at least from my vantage point.

I'm also skeptical about the apathy argument. I would hardly paint Californians in broad brush as apathetic. There is a long tradition that continues down to the present of popular movements. In fact, I would challenge anyone to find a state with a more activist population in terms of pushing forward social and political change.

Do I always support the movements or causes? Of course not. But the point being that Californians are apathetic when it comes to social or political issues just doesn't hold water for anyone who is attuned to state/local news and events here.

Feel free to disagree, but I'm inclined to see these large, polarized and internal conflicts in the U.S. as sort of an expression of uncertainty in these times and perhaps a harbinger of decline with regard to the nation's place in the world (as Ted alluded to above). (Here I'm hardly limiting my analysis to the 'immigration debate'...I'm talking about the rising tide of emotional rhetoric that has dominated the past 6 or 7 years). Much of this is just structural: its beyond the control of the U.S.. Its not that the U.S. did anything wrong in terms of political/economic policy...the outside world is changing (China, India, Russia) and with it, so is our position in the world. People are having a tough time: they're nervous, they're anxious, they're fearful, and most of all they're uncertain.

When things are going great (or seem to be going great in the case of a bubble), there's no reason for the vitriolic rhetoric. But when things turn bad, emotion trumps reason and people start looking for objects of blame...not just abroad but home as well.

Just my .02 (and my first and last post here)...

steveinaz

juliusbk4 wrote: »

I think the issue is not illegals but the way they are enforcing law. I personally think everyone should absolutely know how to speak english in this country and that's just the way it is, like what tim james spoke of, because it enables illegals to get by in our country, and I consider myself liberal. I think that would be the best way to cutback on illegal immigrants. I think most people, on the left, don't have a problem with a state enforcing the law against illegal aliens, it's how Arizona chooses to enforce, thats the problem. Racial profiling is a slippery slope, and abuse of it is just around the corner. Give someone an inch and they'll take a foot.

Agree, it will need to be handled professionally--absolutely. I don't want to see American citizens targeted either. To be completely honest, I really don't think there will be any problems enforcing the law, in terms of the wrong people being harrassed. I think the opposition is making far more of this, than will be in the reality of things.

Like I said before, I go thru BP checkpoints all the time---as do my hispanic friends, NEVER been a problem. They take a peak in my car, ask me if I'm an American citizen--and say "yes" and they wave me on. They know exactly what they are looking for.

steveinaz

Cheddar/Norm/Huck
Not at all a personal attack, I'm just communicating what I have had experience with. I have family in Northern California (Corning), and they tell me it's like a different state altogether. Understandably so, with California's shear size. Point well taken, and something I negected to consider where political positioning comes into play--and that's on me.

Still doesn't lessen my anger about the blackmail boycott approach. We don't want "SoCal" politics in Arizona, period.

cstmar01

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Attitudes such as this are WHY we are "flushing ourselves down the toilet."

Again man, I love you like a brother from another mother, but indifference will lead exactly to the same place it led Marie Antoinette and Louis the 16th....





Time to take the blinders off my friend. Indifference is root cause of all the troubles we have in this country today.

This is very true, but yet very hard to fix. Most people in america would rather vote on american idol than care who they vote for in terms of an election. Most are far to busy to sit down and research governments, the people that run them, political theories, ect and would much rather go and waste their time buying a starbucks coffee and reading the next harry potter and what not.

The problem that is faced is getting the american public to acutally care about whats going on. Normally there might be an issue that will hit home once and awhile and then they will take notice, however it will die and they will no longer care. Most are just going to listen to what others tell them and just follow rather than understand anything.

I will not talk about who is right and who is wrong in politics, its a never ending battle that no one will ever win. People need to learn to accept and understand other view points, and understand that its more about the cooperation of everyone to find a point where they both can live and not try to take out the opposition. You have far to many view points in this country to ever say one is the best, many can be good as long as they are carried out correctly.

Also in regard to other countries taking on communism, um there has never been ANY true communist society ever. EVER. Its a modified wanna be verison of the way things are run, but never has happened.

Also I don't think its correct by another poster to say English should be the only language allowed here. If we made it the offical language, then ok fine but its not there yet and we have to understand others are different than us. Not everyone's ancestors that came to America could speak English and had to learn to adopt at those times, its no different now so I think a little understanding can go a long ways. Granted it does make things easier to have one language everyone should know, but it doesn't always happen (look at Canada) but yet they can live pretty much in peace, I've never heard of the Canadian Civil War of 1999 but it could happen who knows.

juliusbk4 wrote: »

I think the issue is not illegals but the way they are enforcing law. I personally think everyone should absolutely know how to speak english in this country and that's just the way it is, like what tim james spoke of, because it enables illegals to get by in our country, and I consider myself liberal. I think that would be the best way to cutback on illegal immigrants. I think most people, on the left, don't have a problem with a state enforcing the law against illegal aliens, it's how Arizona chooses to enforce, thats the problem. Racial profiling is a slippery slope, and abuse of it is just around the corner. Give someone an inch and they'll take a foot.

madmax

juliusbk4 wrote: »

I think most people, on the left, don't have a problem with a state enforcing the law against illegal aliens, it's how Arizona chooses to enforce, thats the problem. Racial profiling is a slippery slope, and abuse of it is just around the corner.

So how is Arizona choosing to enforce?
madmax

cheddar

steveinaz wrote: »

Cheddar/Norm/Huck
Not at all a personal attack, I'm just communicating what I have had experience with. I have family in Northern California (Corning), and they tell me it's like a different state altogether. Understandably so, with California's shear size. Point well taken, and something I negected to consider where political positioning comes into play--and that's on me.

Still doesn't lessen my anger about the blackmail boycott approach. We don't want "SoCal" politics in Arizona, period.

Never took it as a personal attack. More just venting on the state where these boycott yahoos come from. Just think it's more constructive to focus on the yahoos instead of the whole state. As I think you might be surprised how many Californians are fed up with the status quo.

I agree it's best to leave Arizona politics to Arizona and let Californians staighten out our own government's shortcomings. As I said, I don't think California can do much in its current economic state to really put teeth into a boycott anyways. I think you've got way bigger threats to the law from the other side of the country, to be honest.

hearingimpared

cstmar01 wrote: »

Granted it does make things easier to have one language everyone should know, but it doesn't always happen (look at Canada) but yet they can live pretty much in peace, I've never heard of the Canadian Civil War of 1999 but it could happen who knows.

Um, I have a few Candian frieds on here who would argue vehemently with that statement.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

That's right. The threat of Quebec succeeding is always an issue. The rest of the country pays Quebec to remain in confederation.



http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/03/04/mtl-qc-fed-budget-reax-2010.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-transferpayments/

Let's not forget that FLQ crisis of 1970 and the subsequently institution of the War Measures Act to restore peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis




There's more on the Quebec sovereignty movement in the link below.
We do not want a similar situation here in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement

Yep Quebec always puts a knot in some of my Canadian brethrn's stomachs.

dkg999

If California was serious about boycotting AZ, they would immediately quit buying electricity from AZ generating stations.

Skimming through the news today it appears there's a growing amount of protest against the AZ law. And they are really passionate about it. Of course that passion is also based on them not having to pay additional taxes to support illegal immigrants in this country, or feeling any consequences of a different policy. Cheap and easy is just how we are!

FTGV

hearingimpared wrote: »

Yep Quebec always puts a knot in some of my Canadian brethrn's stomachs.

Thats a true statement Joe.The separatests in Que old us hostage with the threat of separation and have suceeded in there agenda to force the rest of the Country to be bilingual.

FTGV

xcapri79 wrote: »

note the position of the media. Familiar?
http://canadianhistory.learnhub.com/lesson/9631-pierre-trudeau-just-watch-me

Great clip.One thing about PET he did'nt let public opinion affect his decision making.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

That's right. The threat of Quebec succeeding is always an issue. The rest of the country pays Quebec to remain in confederation.



http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/03/04/mtl-qc-fed-budget-reax-2010.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-transferpayments/

Let's not forget that FLQ crisis of 1970 and the subsequently institution of the War Measures Act to restore peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis

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There's more on the Quebec sovereignty movement in the link below.
We do not want a similar situation here in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement

xcapri79 wrote: »

Youtube won't permit viewing of the famous "Trudeau - Just Watch Me" video, however it is available in the following link. It is worth watching.
How often have you seen a leader of a country freely talking to reporters in this manner?
There are many lessons for us today to be learned from this historical footage.
Note the position of the media. Familiar?
http://canadianhistory.learnhub.com/lesson/9631-pierre-trudeau-just-watch-me

You are totally derailing this thread with all the problems of Canada. I simply made a statement to my friend that Canadians would argue the point he made and agreed with you. Can we bring this thread back to the issue of the Arizona law please. If anyone were to do this in the Mike Lo theads they would be reported and the posts deleted. So I suggest you stick with the rules and not the "do as I say, not as I do attitude." BTW this in not a personal attack on you.

wayne3burk

steveinaz wrote: »

For those who don't live in a border state, you see about .5% of what actually goes on, on the news. It's getting seriously dangerous as border town drug wars get more and more intense---this violence is spilling into southern Arizona, as witnessed by the rancher gunned down on his property. This use to be very rare, not anymore. The cartels are feeling more and more pressure as we continue to seal the cracks, so they are beginning to push back, at it's going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better.

Legalize Drugs -- Start with marijuana, then cocaine, then meth amphetamines, and go on down the line....

Make them regulated and taxed, cut out the organized crime.

Look at the 20's and 30's and prohibition. The current state of drug wars, drug violence, addiction and criminalization of drug use parallels the prohibition years of alcohol.

we might as well repeal NAFTA and close off the border to mexico to all motor vehicle traffic. and dig a very deep trench and fill it with hydrochloric acid, that should stop the illegal immigrants from wandering aimlessly across the border.

I think that all states should do random citizenship/paper checking stops on the entire populace.

We should all carry our birth certificates on our persons at all time.

Also there should be warrantless search and seizure of all persons, property, and homes.

Uhmmmm, did I forget anything. Well there is the Echelon program. I think it does word proximity identification on all your emails, phone calls and telecommunications in general, probably tracks google searches as well.

It's all good.

We've always been at war with Eurasia.....

peace

edit - p.s. for those of us who aren't students of US history - I believe we took new mexico, arizona, nevada, and the lower half of california through an unprovoked war with mexico... or maybe i'm wrong.

peace again

hearingimpared

wayne3burk wrote: »

Legalize Drugs -- Start with marijuana, then cocaine, then meth amphetamines, and go on down the line....

Make them regulated and taxed, cut out the organized crime.

Look at the 20's and 30's and prohibition. The current state of drug wars, drug violence, addiction and criminalization of drug use parallels the prohibition years of alcohol.

we might as well repeal NAFTA and close off the border to mexico to all motor vehicle traffic. and dig a very deep trench and fill it with hydrochloric acid, that should stop the illegal immigrants from wandering aimlessly across the border.

I think that all states should do random citizenship/paper checking stops on the entire populace.

We should all carry our birth certificates on our persons at all time.

Also there should be warrantless search and seizure of all persons, property, and homes.

Uhmmmm, did I forget anything. Well there is the Echelon program. I think it does word proximity identification on all your emails, phone calls and telecommunications in general, probably tracks google searches as well.

It's all good.

We've always been at war with Eurasia.....

peace

edit - p.s. for those of us who aren't students of US history - I believe we took new mexico, arizona, nevada, and the lower half of california through an unprovoked war with mexico... or maybe i'm wrong.
peace again

Don't forget Texas but so what Wayne?:D Santa Anna was a tyrant who had eyes, and had raids made, on US settlements. Most of our country was taken from somebody right? Add Andy Jackson to the list of Americans who invaded. He took Florida from Spain because they wouldn't do anything about the Seminole indians from crossing the border into Georgia and killing women and children there. After he kicked them out of Florida, the US paid I think $5 million to Spain for Florida.

All of this was due to aliens coming into our country and taking things that didn't belong to them without asking. Seems rather simple to me.

I am facinated by history.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

Joe, I wasn't derailing the thread. You brought it up. You're bringing up the Mike Lo theads is a true derailment so let those issues end here.
If you don't see the parallel situation with the Quebec issue and the lessons learned then you're not paying attention. Two distinct cultures do not work well in a state. Canada is an example and India is another.
There is more to this world than the good ole USA. Americans can learn well from the mistakes of others or be doomed to repeat them.

BTW this isn't a personal attack on you, but you need to wakeup some times.
Consider this a friendly nudge. ok eh. or should I say ole!;)

Okay Mark, we'll agree to disagree . . . btw OLE!:eek:

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

I don't believe we really disagree. You just had a cranky moment with me.;)

Um no! Not cranky at all. Just the facts maam, just the facts. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.:D

virtualdean

nooshinjohn wrote: »

This is an inaccurate statement. President Reagan was a product of his times more than anything else. In his role as spokesman for GE, he travelled all over the country and observed the realities of every day life. As the head of the Screen Actors Guild, he saw how rampant Communism/Progressivism had infiltrated the entertainment industry and how the unions shifted their focus from the good of their members to the destruction of the companies themselves. He entered politics not for himself, but because he believed that he could do better, and he was right. California has been in steady decline since he left the governorship, but under his leadership, California thrived...

What a fairytale.

virtualdean

hearingimpared wrote: »

Don't forget Texas but so what Wayne?:D Santa Anna was a tyrant who had eyes, and had raids made, on US settlements. Most of our country was taken from somebody right? Add Andy Jackson to the list of Americans who invaded. He took Florida from Spain because they wouldn't do anything about the Seminole indians from crossing the border into Georgia and killing women and children there. After he kicked them out of Florida, the US paid I think $5 million to Spain for Florida.

All of this was due to aliens coming into our country and taking things that didn't belong to them without asking. Seems rather simple to me.

I am facinated by history.

This sounds like classic revisionist history written by the victors.

F1nut

virtualdean wrote: »

What a fairytale.

Wow, way to explain your opinion.

FYI, everything in nooshinjohn's post is factual.

snow

Wow how did I miss all this



REGARDS SNOW

hearingimpared

virtualdean wrote: »

This sounds like classic revisionist history written by the victors.

Yeah, um, history is always written by the vanquished looser.:rolleyes: Why is that?;)

BTW Andy Jackson's campaign against the Seminoles and Spain's lack of action to the constant requests from the US to reel in the Seminoles is well documented and he was, by many in power at the time, criticized for his tactics, but he got the job done. No more murders and looting done in Georgia after that and Spain in fact was happy to take the $5 mil for Florida as it was bleeding them dry. The Brits who had a fort in their claimed portion of Florida at the time were inciting and supporting the Seminoles with firearms and supplies to constantly invade the US borders in Georgia.

Even more interesting is that the Seminoles were part of the Creek Indian tribe which Jackson had defeated in Georgia previously and the Seminoles were out for revernge. Funny thing is the Creeks joined Jackson in his campaign in Florida because they were embarrassed at the atrocities the Seminoles were committing at the general populus in Southern Georgia.

In fact Jackson was elected President shortly thereafter.

Aliens on the borders and crossing the borders can be quite troublesome. Sound familiar?