Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

plastic_avatar · August 2023

skipshot12 wrote: »

One thing about this hobby is one size doesn’t fit all...

...There is no this and only this is it for each person.

That’s why trial and error is so much fun.
Sometimes it’s the trip along the way and not the final destination…..

Sometimes, I read something that changes my day. Thank you

Tweeter swap report Part 2

Swapped the Daytons in the 5(B) to the top slot in the 1C, and those 194 over to the 5(B).

Thoughts:

- The 5(B) now have that high frequency pain that seems brittle and too prevalent.

- The 1C, I think, and I'll get Kira's impression in a bit, sound better with the Dayton high and the 194 low than the other combinations. No pain, but my tinnitus is roaring after relistening to the 1C with all 194 and then the 5(B) with the 194 =(

I'm looking forward to the resistor test, skip. Good to know your experience!

jdjohn · August 2023

"plastic_avatar wrote:

All of that was FANTASTIC info. THANK YOU!

Second:

I think I'll Signet it on the Luxman and see how my friend's extra Ortofon Red (if that would be the same'ish as the others???) sounds on the Ariston.

I'll have additional questions once I go back, re-read, swap, and digest all that^

Happy to help. I assume you mean a 2M Red. The 2M series is different than the OM series. Many folks are disappointed with the 2M Red (too sibilant)...I'm in that camp. I enjoy the AT house.

plastic_avatar wrote:

Third:
I still daydream about redoing my Realistic phono pre (if for no other reason than to complete my fun Realistic receiver/turntable combo in the living room)...

But I get the feeling you might have a better suggestion that I look for to go with the main system?

I might

I might even have one available.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Played 90 minutes of mysic to test tweeters tonight before bed at 75db.

That was fun

https://youtu.be/V1nnkx4F5M8

@jdjohn

Red = sibilant, yes!

Good to know. He bought a blue, though we made the red listenable on his system with EQ. That was a pain.

Styluses:

I wonder if I should sell my others? I never use the Shure n97xe and a spare Stanton... I forget the model.

I ought to sell my Realistic Lab-400 and keep the Ariston, probably, but the Lab goes with my Realistic receiver =\

I should get my needle models so you can tell me what would go with the Dual I put in my console (and what's matches the Lab)...

jdjohn · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Styluses:

I wonder if I should sell my others? I never use the Shure n97xe and a spare Stanton... I forget the model.

I ought to sell my Realistic Lab-400 and keep the Ariston, probably, but the Lab goes with my Realistic receiver =\

I should get my needle models so you can tell me what would go with the Dual I put in my console (and what's matches the Lab)...

I'm personally not a fan of the Shure M97xE (too warmish for my taste), but JICO makes a replacement stylus that supposedly brightens it up a bit. Definitely check the model on that Stanton...some of those are quite good.

Tough call on the Realistic Lab-400. It has a more adaptable arm than the Ariston, I think.

What's the Dual model?

plastic_avatar · August 2023

(Back to turntable sidebar soon.)

State of the Room

Turning it upside down!

Dialing in placement is different using the long wall.

Room is about 15ft wide and 30ft long, with a 1.5ft ledge along one long side.

Previous orientation was:

4ft between speakers, 3ft from wall and ledge, and 8.5 feet from center of either speaker to center chair.

New orientation is:

7.5ft between speakers, 10'ish'ft from side walls, and 11.5 from center of either speaker to center chair.

Changes:

- I lost some corner bass reinforcement.

- Imaging past speakers only on recordings with strong stereo mixes.

- Sound feels more... open? Airy?

Had to run tests from behind my work machine, off to the side. Rugs not down, still trying to tweak speaker placement =\

Any tips on 1C placement outside the Polk manual welcome.

Annnnd the 555 + Parasound pre + E50 + 1C sounds great, even waaaaay off to the side behind a monitor

https://youtu.be/JiAVbPYhvjE?si=9RdnZA1k6q2iTBqA

I still like the Dayton/194 combo best for the tweeters, so far. 2 more Daytons coming for the 5(B), so I'll try double Daytons in a couple of weeks.

heiney9 · August 2023

Comparing 45 year old cross over parts in the 1C's you just bought to modded updated cross over parts in your 5B's and then making comments about the different tweets is silly.

Why not wait until the 1C crossovers are brought up to the same standard as the other speakers you are comparing when trying to evaluate the different tweets?

Your comparisons and such are so haphazard and since there seems to be no "control" aspect of your comparisons they are pretty much meaningless.

Saying one (tweeter) is better than the other before leveling the playing field so to speak is a waste of time and posting space, IMO.

H9

heiney9 · August 2023

EDIT above 35 year......not 45 year...same idea though

H9

plastic_avatar · August 2023

@heiney9 I think I was misunderstood.

I took the tweeters out of the new-old pair and put them in my upgraded pair.

I only tried the new-old ones as-was to make sure things worked after I got them home.

There was never an in-room nor direct comparison between the new-old pair and either the modded 1C or 5(B).

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Oh, quick follow-up:

This may not have been clear, but I dismantled the new-old pair to move downstairs, get the sides fixed where the fabric got pulled during transit, then I'll start a comparison between modded/unmodded parts then.

Swapping in the 194 to the modded 1C was me being excited that I finally got a set to compare.

AND, that's the easiest swap for a comparison taste test before I move parts over, a group at a time.

Here's the schedule:

- fix new cabs
- remount new-old drivers
- bring upgraded crossover over

***test a stock 1C with upgraded crossover using same songs/methodology as in original tests (plus some basic room/speaker measurements)

- swap in Wuhans, test
- swap in Daytons, test
- try different combinations, test

- swap out stereo drivers for plugged, test
- put stock drivers back in, swap out SDA drivers for plugged, test
- try different combinations, test

Then, depending, try different tweeter setups/combos w/ the best mid layout, if I feel like it's necessary.

Lastly, I'll put in BH5, then rings.

And that's my off-the-top-of-my-head from my notes that're down in the basement approximation of what I have planned once the room is back together.

I hope that helps clear things up.

Haphazard isn't the word I'd use.

heiney9 · August 2023

No offense but your trials and exploits are hard to follow. But as long as your having fun then it doesn't matter if it makes sense to most of the rest of us.

Sounds like the Adcom was in good condition. I always preferred the Adcom over Yamaha. Never heard a Yamaha amp that floated my boat. I guess my bias goes back to the day when I was in audio sales in the late 80's early 90's. We tried to compare an Adcom 535 (60wpc but huge reserves) against the 200 wpc Yamaha (I want to say M80 rated at 250wpc). We used power hungry 4 ohm ADS L1590.

The Yammy fell on it face, sounded very strained vs the Adcom which was a real champ at higher levels. The Yammy did play a bit louder but it started to distort long before it should have considering the factory rating (which obviously wasn't true). The little Adcom had its limits of course, but it clipped with much less drama and played with better clarity and control. The Yammy should have played much louder considering the factory rating.

On paper it shouldn't even have been a contest. The Adcom was underrated the Yammy was overrated by the manufacturer. After that, I never heard a (vintage) Yammy I cared for. But lots of Yamaha fans out there, so it's just my experience and opinion.

H9

The 535 has dual transformers (one for each channel) making it a very capable and great sounding amp.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

In a perfect world, this thread would be 2/3 shorter and easier to follow

I try to cover my bases- when I can.

Adcom vs Yamaha

I've heard a lot of Yamahas since my first listen in 1983 (that experience was life-changing).

Little did I know, what I thought was neutral sound was... ummmm... dull =\

To my ears.

Every upgrade to my thrifty system is an eye-opener.

The GFA-555ii blows every sub-$1000 thrifty Yamaha I've tried/heard to bits. It's immediately noticeable, the difference in punch and definition. It's nuts. And continues to be a very rewarding experience as upgrades happen.

The Adcom drives the 1C sooooo much better.

I'm out on the difference for the 5(B) until I listen more. I don't know that the difference is as stark.

xschop · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

(Back to turntable sidebar soon.)

State of the Room

Turning it upside down!

Dialing in placement is different using the long wall.

Room is about 15ft wide and 30ft long, with a 1.5ft ledge along one long side.

Previous orientation was:

4ft between speakers, 3ft from wall and ledge, and 8.5 feet from center of either speaker to center chair.

New orientation is:

7.5ft between speakers, 10'ish'ft from side walls, and 11.5 from center of either speaker to center chair.

Changes:

- I lost some corner bass reinforcement.

- Imaging past speakers only on recordings with strong stereo mixes.

- Sound feels more... open? Airy?

Had to run tests from behind my work machine, off to the side. Rugs not down, still trying to tweak speaker placement =\

Any tips on 1C placement outside the Polk manual welcome.

Annnnd the 555 + Parasound pre + E50 + 1C sounds great, even waaaaay off to the side behind a monitor

https://youtu.be/JiAVbPYhvjE?si=9RdnZA1k6q2iTBqA

I still like the Dayton/194 combo best for the tweeters, so far. 2 more Daytons coming for the 5(B), so I'll try double Daytons in a couple of weeks.

Looking forward to your full-Dayton review.
My wife said to leave them in the 8TL's. I couldn't argue with her (I'm only allowed to argue audio-related subject matter lol)

plastic_avatar · September 2023

Won't be able to run all 4 slots as Daytons for a real, documented, listening comparison for a bit. Keeping the 2nd pair in the 5(B) right now.

Will print a revised tweeter plates based on what I used on the 5(B). Better bevel on the throat, and tighter mount on the back.

I did print out my revised 1C reversed crossover holder. Much better.

xschop · September 2023

Those look like anodized billet.

plastic_avatar · September 2023

This new printer is amazing.

Gardenstater · September 2023

I thought it was a solid modeling laser printed picture LOL. Looks great! Resin printer would be better than this?

plastic_avatar · September 2023

Oh, guys!

I test printed a tweeter plate vertically (old printer couldn't manage it). Everything about the tweeter plate is better (except one small part of the throat edge). I'll post images later, once I get the finish dialed in.

Resin prints would be a lot smoother, but not nearly as durable.

If I zoom in and get an inch away, you can see the lines on the crossover bracket:

But farther out? I all blends together. Example:

This was printed as a draft. Layer height of .28mm

Detailed prints are between .02 and .08mm. It could look even better, but I didn't think it was necessary.

plastic_avatar · September 2023

Update/Observations

The Studio and Real Wood (RW) cabinets differ in more ways that the construction of the grilles (the Studio's grilles are much thicker and have sharp edges on the inside of the frame).

- The tweeters on the RW are 3x the distance from the top edge of the cabinet than the Studio. They're 2x the distance from the top of the internal cavity than the Studio's, too.

- The distance from the top of the passive to the bottom of the mids is twice the length on the RW, compared to the Studio.

Does this affect what I'll hear?

I expect the grilles might help diffraction against those top and bottom wood overhangs on the RW. I've already got a 3D-print + foam thing in my head to throw together to mitigate the negatives whilst goin' grille'less.

Tweeters

Still don't like the 194 in the top slot.

Still using Dayton up top and 194 on bottom.

Still going to try 4 Daytons when I can, then do some more comparisons.

Monitor 12 dilemma

I *was* going to part out the new 1C, but that seems like a bad option now.

I doubt the M12 will see much use, and 3 pairs of big speakers is pushing it... so, keeping a spare pair of 1C ain't a bad idea. I could part out the M12, instead. I won't get nearly as much out of them whole as I would parted out.

BUT. Question: Anyone use the speaker in the 12 as a replacement for the 1C? Only a few listening takes out there. Listeners seem to like the M12 drivers as a replacement, but a lot of people tell them it's a bad idea.

Friends continue to have 'OMG' moments

"I've listened to this song since 1986. I had no idea his voice was anchored left of center here."

"That guitar is on stage somewhere [gestures with hand] over there."

"I can't get over how wide and complete this soundstage is."

SDA, hey hey.

ChrisD06 · September 2023

So, why not just TL mod and use RD-0198 for all tweeters?

Unknown · September 2023

This content has been removed.

ChrisD06 · September 2023

pitdogg2 wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

So, why not just TL mod and use RD-0198 for all tweeters?

Not all can have that mod.

Oh? I didn't know that. Is there any reason why?

Unknown · September 2023

This content has been removed.

ChrisD06 · September 2023

pitdogg2 wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

So, why not just TL mod and use RD-0198 for all tweeters?

Not all can have that mod.

Oh? I didn't know that. Is there any reason why?

Yes because polk never designed one for it. Some have tried to do it but there's more to it than just placing a cap across a resistor. Some also need inductors changed to accommodate. @inspiredsports did a thread a decade or more ago, I do not remember how it turned out.
All I can tell you is it was not sanctioned by Polk.

Ah yeah, I went to the schematics thread and see that now. Wouldn't someone be able to create a mod pretty easily? We know the T/S for the drivers and we know the values of the XO components, right? It definitely would take work but I can't see it being impossible.

Did inspiredsports have those values or was he working from scratch?

F1nut · September 2023

Of course, he knew the values, but he was still working from scratch. Years ago a few of us visiting Polk HQ asked two of the engineers about a TL mod for the 1C. They looked at each other and agreed it could probably be done (the right way) and that they would look into, but that was the end of it. So, there it is, the end of it.

ChrisD06 · September 2023

F1nut wrote: »

Of course, he knew the values, but he was still working from scratch. Years ago a few of us visiting Polk HQ asked two of the engineers about a TL mod for the 1C. They looked at each other and agreed it could probably be done (the right way) and that they would look into, but that was the end of it. So, there it is, the end of it.

Well that's nice closure. Too bad it never came to be.

xschop · September 2023

F1nut wrote: »

Of course, he knew the values, but he was still working from scratch. Years ago a few of us visiting Polk HQ asked two of the engineers about a TL mod for the 1C. They looked at each other and agreed it could probably be done (the right way) and that they would look into, but that was the end of it. So, there it is, the end of it.

There was no profit in it for Polk. Now you have the real story.

plastic_avatar · September 2023

Tweets

I like the 198 I put in my M12. So far, it's my favorite Polk tweeter. I haven't heard the ring ones, but I imagine they're amazing (based on all the reviews and accounts here).

Related/unrelated: Gardenstater found some info on a neato set of speakers. The tweeters have a backwave absorber that's like a fancy version of my pinkeye testers for the Wuhan.

On the Dayton's:

I put lamb's wool, per xschop's suggestion, in the back chamber of the Daytons. Subtle, but pleasant. A little like heavy cream vs. Half and Half in my coffee.

I still need to order the resistors for the vacant polyswitches. Interested to see how I feel about the 194 after that.

Otherwise, whether they're matched to the crossover or not, we all enjoy the way they sound

Steps

Anyone gave a good method for fixing loose cloth on the sides of the Real Wood?

I have one panel I took off because it was loose. That one will be fine. The other 3? Different story. Dan't want to wreck them pulling them off.

F1nut · September 2023

I really don't believe that was the case as I knew both of those gentlemen pretty well. They loved vintage Polk speakers and us Polkies. It was a hectic day and while I can't say for sure I believe it was a matter of they simply forgot about it.

Unknown · September 2023

This content has been removed.

xschop · September 2023

Ok then, they were just lazy.

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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