Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

nooshinjohn

plastic_avatar wrote: »

I came here to chew bubblegum and upgrade my 1C.

And I'm all out of bubblegum.

And your 1c’s are FUBAR’d as well…

plastic_avatar

Tonight's feature: Looking for Mr. Fubar

I'll have a more formal comparison of stock vs mods, eventually.

- First test was the 194 vs Wuhan, 2000, and Dayton. Not a fan of the 194 in both slots. Best combo so far = Dayton (with lamb's wool in back chamber) on top and 194 on bottom. Still need to try Daytons in both slots to complete the test combinations.

- Comparing passive chamber and stuffing mods = prefer mods. No boomy bass. Everything is very clear and defined. Listened to everything from tone tests to reference tracks for hours last night to compare. Much more controlled. At first, I thought a lot of bass was gone. But test tones showed the speakers are capable of producing the frequencies, but a huge chunk of distorted bass is gone, so the clean tones sound different, more defined, smaller, and balanced to the rest of the music. I miss the exaggerated low end on some tracks, but the gains on everything else is great. I might play with moving the BH5 higher and lower on the side walls.

- Cabinets = I think the slight changes in the Real Wood front face, extra mass top and bottom, plus the grill differences and different side treatments, results in a better sound- stock setup to Studio stock setup. I would love to hear impressions from people who A/B'd them both.

- Next stop, mids. But I'm busy and that might take a while.

So far, pleased. A little surprised, too. For example, I really expected to like the 194. Didn't like them in the 5(B), either. Nor did my daughter when I had her listen w/o telling her what I changed.

Current status:

Still looking for Mr. Fubar
or
It takes two to Tango, and Cash

pitdogg2

Believe it or not the cloth sides do mitigate some side reflection vs the studio cabinets.

plastic_avatar

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Believe it or not...

I believe it!

I didn't believe there'd be a real difference I could point to, but I was wrong.

I think there are 2 things that pushed my soundstage out anywhere from a foot to... well... based on last night's marathon... 4 feet wider in this long-wall orientation than the Studio:

- The cabinets/grills/fabric, absolutely. And that was totally unexpected for me. At least, that noticeable.

- The stuffing changes behind the mids. I played around with stuffing as-is before I changed it. To my ear, it made things airier and wider on ambient'ish sounds (synth effects on Living for the City, for example).

I listened with the grills off for hours, too.

Unlike the Studio, I like the RW better with the grills on.

I don't know about off-axis listening though... I need to see how that sounds.

xschop

Looks like new developments with the continued work you're doing. Kudos for not being part of the echo-chamber.

Gardenstater

Looks like location matters. And a postage stamp sized piece of BH5 directly behind the magnet assembly may not always be the optimum scenario. Thanks for doing the work (and continuing to).

Edit - when we put sound absorption material in our rooms for the purpose of bass standing wave reductions we put them in the corners for maximum effect. Just food for thought. I know when I did that in my room it may have reduced bass overall energy but it cleaned it up and gave impact and punch.

pitdogg2

Polk Voiced their speakers with grills on FWIW, I do from time to time listen with the grills off.

plastic_avatar

My Studio and Real Wood have another structural difference

The divider on the RW is longer than the Studio.


The Studio's divider^ separates about 35% of the space between the lower two mids.


The RW's divider^ separated by over 75% of the space between the lower two mids.

I'm curious about how that extra space affects the bass and the sound of the lower 2 mids.

I didn't notice that difference in divider size until today at lunch.

The Studios, anecdotally, had slightly heavier bass before I made the stuffing changes in the RW. The mids are closer to passive, it has smaller passive chamber, and it has more driver-sharing-direct-path-of-air-between sides...

My midrange on the RW is better than the Studios. Voices are improved (and they were nice before). The biggest gains (I thought) were the stuffing change, but there could be subtle differences related to the interior of cabinet, too.

Offhand, and contradictorily, I think the Airwolf theme was better on the Studios...

Gardenstater

I've learned a lot about the differences between the Studio 1C and the "RW" version, despite certain opinions (we know what opinions are like ) of "not much good information". Carry on.

"Airwolf theme"?

F1nut

"not much good information"

Ah yes, that is the theme of this thread.

plastic_avatar

The horns are split between the channels. It's quite nice, but I can't find the best version on Qobuz, or Amazon, or...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfmowbNlK0

xschop

This reinforces what I've discovered in general, that the best midrange-midbass performance is achieved by the more braced front baffles. Other builds here also attest to that.

PS.... Maybe you can also add a dowel front-to-back at the 10 and 2 o'clock positions near the PR.

Great work helping the future closet-modders come out.😎

Gardenstater

Yes be brave closet modders and resist the current cancel culture 🤘

plastic_avatar

Update

The 1C continue to bring smiles to faces, but no new listeners the past month or so.

It's too bad Post Pandemic Time still makes it hard for people to get back into the swing of visiting. I've got this unfinished room set up for 5 seats, but it's a challenge getting Gen X nerd parents together. I'll have some over at Christmas, so I'll just have to wait for some new opinions.

- The best setup. so far, for the 1C on the long wall is:

8ft 6in between cabinets
2-3in from front wall
7ft from side walls
13ft from center of either speaker to where my head is in my chair

- The Daytons just keep getting better. BUT! I wish there was a way to calculate out caps and resistors (and inductors?) that would more closely match its values. If it sounds this nice in a slot it wasn't made for, I'd love to hear them more closely matched to ideal.

- I put the cabinets on wheeled trucks. MUCH easier to move around. The wheels can lock. No noticeable difference in sound than on elevated blocks.

- I'd like to try larger felt pads that cover all the face around the tweeters- from the top of the mids to the top and sides of the cab.

I had to adjust the pads to fit with the RW's grilles:




Th grille frame went over the tweeter plate, so I cut a strip of felt off. I took that and put it on the inner lip of the grille frame above the tweeter, so the felt is kind of in an L shape with the grille on.

- I listen with the grills on 90% of the time now. Am interested to see differences with felt pads, since I just installed and made the changes tonight.

- I worry every now and again that they don't have the visceral impact they did along the short wall, when the room was split in half. But, it makes sense. They have to fill a much larger space, and the sweet seat is a lot further away. Then I'll hit a song that has some great low end, and I realize they sound fantastic. I'm still debating a pair of subs, just for the air pressure. But I'd hate to lose any of the accuracy, speed, and... texture?... I get right now.

I took the pre off Direct/Bypass and turned the bass up a click. Made a big difference without muddying the sound.

- Trashing the Studio cabs and putting most of the non-modded bits up for sale soon. It pains me, but I don't have room for 3 pairs of big speakers, and those cabs are a mess. Plus, I can get more parting them out. Good news is, I'll get to keep a couple of mids for backup. Maybe a passive, too.

- Wires, inductors, a mini Dread, and a refurb for the 555ii are all on the menu for mid-to-late 2024. Maybe a better DAC/streamer, too, if finances permit. And a better phono pre, if things go well and the world doesn't degenerate into chaos. But... honestly... I could fund a lot if I got rid of my albums and turntables... [thinks about it].

- I created a couple playlists of great mixes on Quboz. Listening for songs that showcase the soundstage is a new hobby.

Gardenstater

Pack up one of your modded 1Cs and send them off to Danny Ritchie for crossover tweaking 🤣

The other more practical option would be to download the 5s sine sweep tone (I forget which is the one I used....logarithmic or non) and place the mic of your phone 1m away from the midpoint of the upper MWs and the lower tweeter and record with peak hold engaged. Do a screenshot. Then with the system volume exactly the same, install the SL2000s and repeat. Then overlay the two curves and see what's going on. You can then make appropriate tweaks to the values of the tweeter resistors and get the response to be more to your liking. This will be reverberant field measurement which means it includes room effects. To try to eliminate those you'd have to do what is called a "gated" measurement that eliminates the first reflections that would be received by the mic location from the walls, ceiling, and floor of the room.

plastic_avatar

Happy New Year, Polk Folk.

Realized I hadn't posted a finished picture of the Studio/Real Wood Face Off transplant. The wrecked Studio cabinets and grills are in storage.

The current setup looks great and sounds fantastic.I believe the differences in the design of the Real Wood are an audible improvement.

At some point I'll take those measurements. Right now, I need to work on other projects.

Unintended cool factor = The 1C and the 5B look like a matched set now. I need more felt cut for the big'uns, so I can put the old felt on the smaller ones.




After reading a lot of older mod threads from before I joined in 2009, I'm thinking I might swap in the 6503 from my M12 Series 2, just to hear the difference. Some liked the change, so I'm curious.

xschop

Incredible journey.

msg

There is no such thing as a bad recording of the Airwolf intro.

I might still have a tape kicking around from when I used to record my favorite TV show intros in the 80s on a tape recorder held up against the TV's speaker.

The only thing that would ruin it would be someone coming in and talking... "SHHHH!!! I'm TAPING!!! Gyah! NOW I GOTTA WAIT UNTIL NEXT WEEK AGAIN!"

plastic_avatar

[80's high five]

I have 1 tape left.

My Dad recorded a playlist for me on one side. I recorded stuff (at least 2 things from the radio/tv) on the other.

I've got the Knight Rider theme and Beat It on that side [smiles]. 6th grade. That was my music for a school trip to Gettysburg that summer, and... my week at Gifted camp at Elon College, NC. That was a not awful summer.

Knight Rider, Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Airwolf... even the A-Team, Magnum PI, and... well, the 70's and 80's were awesome for tv show theme songs

And even though before my time (I was introduced in college), I loved the theme to The Prisoner. And Tom Baker's Doctor Who theme...

Gardenstater

Pretty kick **** harmonica in Rockford Files too . The bogus knockoffs never sound as good as the originals from the shows.

plastic_avatar

James Garner, man. I used to watch that when I was... pre-2nd grade... when my parents went to neighbors down the street to play cards (on Fridays?). I had nothing to do. I enjoyed the song. It was like a gateway to the last phase of me sitting alone. Me in the living room, they in the dining room.I don't remember what came on after...

Gardenstater

Yeah all the other versions are shite. The Mike Post one is what you want. I remember since I was an avid watcher of the show (2nd grade wt f? anyways ha ha) when I was a kid, that they did different versions but they were all very good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8V5sRVXGk

Edit - Can't find it on Qobuz

msg

Thinking back on that time and watching those old programs, I was reminded of this one time when I rigged up a remote control system for the little Sony Trinitron I commandeered from my Dad to use in my room.

It was a long link of rubber bands connected to the push/pull power knob, and a taped curtain rod. Both required a calibration period. It only lasted a day or two. Unfortunately, I was not able to bring that prototype to market.

plastic_avatar

heiney9

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Tonight's feature: Looking for Mr. Fubar

I'll have a more formal comparison of stock vs mods, eventually.

- First test was the 194 vs Wuhan, 2000, and Dayton. Not a fan of the 194 in both slots. Best combo so far = Dayton (with lamb's wool in back chamber) on top and 194 on bottom. Still need to try Daytons in both slots to complete the test combinations.

- Comparing passive chamber and stuffing mods = prefer mods. No boomy bass. Everything is very clear and defined. Listened to everything from tone tests to reference tracks for hours last night to compare. Much more controlled. At first, I thought a lot of bass was gone. But test tones showed the speakers are capable of producing the frequencies, but a huge chunk of distorted bass is gone, so the clean tones sound different, more defined, smaller, and balanced to the rest of the music. I miss the exaggerated low end on some tracks, but the gains on everything else is great. I might play with moving the BH5 higher and lower on the side walls.

- Cabinets = I think the slight changes in the Real Wood front face, extra mass top and bottom, plus the grill differences and different side treatments, results in a better sound- stock setup to Studio stock setup. I would love to hear impressions from people who A/B'd them both.

- Next stop, mids. But I'm busy and that might take a while.

So far, pleased. A little surprised, too. For example, I really expected to like the 194. Didn't like them in the 5(B), either. Nor did my daughter when I had her listen w/o telling her what I changed.

Current status:

Still looking for Mr. Fubar
or
It takes two to Tango, and Cash

The original 1987 Stereo Review stated: The passive radiator bass distortion was among the lowest they had ever measured. Yet you say "a huge chunk of distorted bass is gone". It was never there to begin with. Your comparisons are all over the map and completely outside of the standard control method. Which means they are completely meaningless and useless......and most likely incorrect.

This entire post is an exercise in self indulgence and has ZERO merit for anyone reading it because it's all over the place and no one could draw a consistent conclusion about any of the mods you've done.

H9

xschop

I've never been able to draw a consistent conclusion about all your whine.

Gardenstater

Did Julian Hirsch test a brand new pair or did he travel into the future and bring back some vintage ones? You guys need to make up your mind if measurements are more important than what the ear hears cause a lot of ya seem to go back and forth on that issue like the waves on the beach.

plastic_avatar

Maybe I used the wrong word.

I appreciate that you took the time to pick that out.

Distorted to me... covers boomy and/or overemphasized. If they measured distortion as a response from tone input/output compared to other speakers of the day... my interpretation of the sound I hear between stock and modified is not at odds with those results.

I mean, the 1987 Correlation GT may have delivered the best handling and overall performance of any other domestic full-sized 2-door in the States, but I'd never dispute, looking back, that it handles like a heavy, floppy boot and accelerates slower than my minivan. It was great then, but it didn't thrill me like the souped-up hotrod version I took around the track yesterday.

I appreciate you taking the time to respectfully let me know how a review from 38 years ago invalidates my experience based on an adjective.

F1nut

Gardenstater wrote: »

Did Julian Hirsch test a brand new pair or did he travel into the future and bring back some vintage ones? You guys need to make up your mind if measurements are more important than what the ear hears cause a lot of ya seem to go back and forth on that issue like the waves on the beach.

That might be the most asinine post you've made and you've made many.

plastic_avatar

A few weeks ago, when I needed a distraction, I read posts by members who joined up before I did.

Interesting stuff.

If you compare beliefs about measurements vs. the ear, and attitudes about experimenting and modding vs. stock, there is a lot of contradiction over the past 2 decades. But it's the past 5 years or so where people got especially hateful with their opinions.

I'm pretty sure this thread would be half as long if we took out all the insults, retorts, and trolling. Quite a few think they have some kind of privilege over others, and they love to chime in about it. I'm not sure where the rules are for those rankings, but they'd mean as much to me as the forum rules of conduct mean to them.

I'm not sure how I'm the bad guy in this equation, but things are strange in The Matrix.

If we had moderation power over our own threads, I'd keep all the hotdog posts... and maybe a few of the meme'ish posts... but I'd trim as much of the negativity as I could.

And maybe I'd clarify what the difference in low tones is like between stock and modded without using the word distort.

Maybe.