Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

plastic_avatar · March 2023

bcwsrt wrote: »

...(along with not being able to see what you’re rocking in your signature at the moment)...

My main system? Everything I have was on a budget:

- Yamaha P2250 amp (FB Marketplace)
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/p2250.shtml

- Parasound P/HP-850 pre (see in thread above)
https://parasound.com/vintage/php850.php

- Nakamichi CD-4 ($10 thrifting 10 years ago, got remote on ebay for $30, and I love the way it sounds compared to the other consumer players I've had, BUT hoping a better dac makes a difference)
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/nakamichi/cd-4.shtml

- Audiosource EQ-Fourteen (not hooked up, but I'm dying to (sorry @heiney9!)), a $75 shopgoodwill find, in the box, looking like it was never used, with mic
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/450056/Audiosource-Eq-14.html

- Ariston Q Deck (have a Signet needle on it now, but I've got Shure and Stanton and... something else... a Grado...). Was free for helping a friend move. It sounds nice. No frills. It's the belt companion to my main DD turntable.
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ariston/q-deck.shtml

- And my Luxman P-272, that I got out of a dumpster at the WVU Journalism School when they re-did the studio. I was so geeked, I didn't check the dumpster for more than that and the pro tripod I've used for the past 18 years... Haven't figured out which stylus works best on it.
https://audio-database.com/LUXMAN/player/pd272.html

- That little WiiM Mini, which is a pretty kick-**** little device. Beats the pants off an Echo Dot. And wants a real dac to feed into.
https://www.amazon.com/WiiM-Mini-Multiroom-Preamplifier-Assistants/dp/B09HC5GRKY

The 1C are the only things I've put real money into. And it's been worth every penny for the experience. I planned for this to be a fun, meaningful project, and I got it.

So!

My list for improvement right now are:

- dac (@VicBinCT ordered a Geshelli in exactly the same color combo I had in my mind- red with smoky plexi... and I'm curious about it paired with the WiiM)
- room treatment (pre and post finishing the room, since it's an unfinished basement)
- wiring my basement room (right now, I'm running extension cables everywhere (not a good look... or sound)

I figure after those, it's power supplies/conditioners, cables, and prayer.

Thoughts?

bcwsrt · March 2023

Well, that's considerably more detail than what's in your sig. Lol I'm not familiar with most of the list, but everyone has a budget at the end of the day no matter how big or small it is. There are some DIY room treatment options if you're up for it. Otherwise, that can get pricey. I look at it like it's another component.

Continue enjoying your journey ...

heiney9 · March 2023

A good dac will better the Nak cdp. Many moons ago I had a Nak MB-2s that I thought sounded great, added an Adcom dac and the difference was night and day.

H9

skipshot12 · March 2023

Got yourself a fine piece of gear in that Parasound.
Happy listening.

skipshot12 · March 2023

I found quite a difference when putting my preamp into the system vs the amp being driven directly from the disc player.
Big difference in lower frequency impact.
Bass & drums are sick. A whole nuther level of low end performance of my SDA’s.
Sounds on par or just a tad better than my Infinity Kappa 9’s… and that’s saying something.

plastic_avatar · March 2023

skipshot12 wrote: »

...Sounds on par or just a tad better than my Infinity Kappa 9’s… and that’s saying something.

That's amazing. I will hear a pair one day.

I always drooled over the Kappas at one audio store, then Klipschorns at another. Those 2 lines/models were my first speaker crushes.

bcwsrt · March 2023

I'll look forward to your comments on the Geshelli DAC. Pretty cool-looking unit. I see it has a fiber optic input, which is compatible with my Sony CDP-508ESD. While it still sounds pretty good to me, I see comments where its internal DAC is pretty long in the tooth by today's standards.

plastic_avatar · March 2023

SDA thoughts and questions

- Wow. Listening to Dark Side of the Moon. Original CD master. Though it sounds reserved and veiled (compared to some modern CD mixes I’ve been playing with), a few times the sound on the right wrapped around a good 6ft in front of the speaker plane and outside the right wall. Felt like it was coming towards my ear from someplace it couldn’t be. Wow.

- I may have asked this before, but are there things you do not enjoy hearing on SDA speakers? I think part of my sadness w/ some of my music is it’s just not being processed beautifully (hoping dac will help), or the better my system gets the more I hear bad mixes as… bad? Do you guys go through transitions as you chase a more complete sound? Does better equipment always = less forgiving?

dpowell · March 2023

I believe the bass on the left is more taut. Could be room, could be coating on the passive chamber, could be both.

Bass isn't as strong in force as the M12, imo, but the quality of it is better. Might be the benefit of SDA clarity?

Perhaps the bass issues might stem from the fact you have them too far out from the back wall and you have them on stands instead of spiked to the floor. You may never know unless you give them a try installed as originally intended by the engineers.

plastic_avatar · March 2023

You're right, @dpowell, about needing to follow the SDA recommended setup.

Right now, the layout is:

- 3ft from side walls
- 7.5 inches from wall behind speakers (haven't moved them closer yet)
- speakers are on cheapie spikes
- tweaking distance of listening chair, but it's close to recommended proportions
- I removed the stereo cabinet on the right, and put my sub in the right corner and guitar amp in the left (to balance out the objects in the room)

I never put them on stands. I keep thinking about it, because of floor obstacles.

The center tv stand is ahead of the speaker plane. I can't do anything about that for the near future.

heiney9 · March 2023

Piano can sometimes sound "phasey" for lack of a better word. The part of SDA that gives you that "all around, 3D sound" also can cause instruments to be a little diffuse.

I have been an SDA advocate for 35 years. I'm back to conventional speakers again and it's whole new world.

Time will tell what I miss about my SDA's. Not sure I'll ever get rid of them. One thing I have noticed is many of my well recorded live music I enjoy just doesn't have the same impact or "spread" on my L600's like it does on the SDA's. Maybe the word I'm looking for is "scale".

A really good live recording on SDA's can give you goosebumps at just the sheer scale of what's going on. As well as allowing a good live recording to "breath". The stage with SDA's just seems to have the allusion of being bigger on a live recording compared to L600's. It's subtle, but noticeable.

I've always thought SDA's did live recordings the best.

H9

plastic_avatar · March 2023

Every live song, so far, has really been a treat, @heiney9. I can totally believe SDA is best at that.

I get the piano, too. Best piano so far from my lists is on Come Sail Away. It's sharp and precise, but in other songs... I can hear what you describe.

I'll keep an ear out for things.

So far, the worst song through the 1C is Prince's Kiss.

Prince loved his drum machines. There's an electronic, distorted 'bwuahhhhp' beat throughout the whole song. It sounds like a blown speaker when it hits. I tried CD and then WiiM streaming Amazon and Spotify; all the same. Swapped speakers left to right; all the same. Awful. Unlistenable because of it =(

When I was using my HTR as a pre, I had a similar problem with yhe drum machines on the Purple Rain soundtrack. They sounded so artificial it was unbearable. The Parasound gave it a sound that makes it enjoyable again. It's an artificial drum, yes, but now it sounds like it fits. But that beat on Kiss? Too terrible to listen to =(

dpowell · March 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

I never put them on stands. I keep thinking about it, because of floor obstacles.

The center tv stand is ahead of the speaker plane. I can't do anything about that for the near future.

Got it, my bad. There are too many data points and proposed ideas in this thread to possibly keep track of. 😉

skipshot12 · March 2023

Will have to have a listen to come sail away

xschop · March 2023

I only have two SDA build threads bookmarked here at the CCP. This being one of them, due to the sheer tenacity and ballz-out work ethic to get it done, irregardless of physical and social obstacles.

Props Steven.

plastic_avatar · March 2023

dpowell wrote: »

There are too many data points and proposed ideas in this thread to possibly keep track of. 😉

You ain’t wrong.

This thing needs a persistent table of contents:

Prologue
Intro - Evaluation
Chapter 1 - Dismantling
Chapter 2 - All the ideas, everywhere at once
Chapter 3 - Summarized critiques
Chapter 4 - Crossovers and left field musings
Chapter 5 - Summarized critiques part II
Chapter 6 - Tweetering on the Edge, from Wuhan with Love
Chapter 7 - T. McGee and the Case of the Chrome Pasties
Chapter 8 - INCOMING!
[explosions and fire]
Ch p er 9 Su m r z d cr t qu s part Iii
[sounds of people dying, much wailing and gnashing of teeth, howls of despair, like something out of Dante’s Inferno]
Chapter 10 - Hotdogs!

Then it really should be split into Book 2, because it’s better to have 2 volumes when they’re different enough

Maybe 2 books and a hotdog supplemental.

Or, if we edited it to just relevant updates... it'd easily be 75% smaller

But I’m honestly happy to have food knowledge as part of this.

Next tests before dac purchase:

- felting or somesuch between mids and tweeters, thinking of DK's remarks on sound w/ plugs on his CRS

- still might raise the 1C up about a foot to clear some obstacles in the room.... it worked for the Monitor 12

Need:

- some homemade sound traps/diffusers on my right wall

I might:

- compare different tweeter plate designs, because I've got those cooked-up, too

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Time for an overdue update.

Changes to listening space

- Replaced tv stand with a shallower, more transparent rack. I may put foam on it to soften reflections. Center imaging is stronger now.

- Relocated guitar amp and removed subwoofer to reduce things that interfere, making area more symmetrical.

- Moved speakers from 7 inches away from front wall to 2.75 inches from front wall. Bass improved, not bloated (but I can hear where corner traps will help tighten it up), no change to depth (which I wish was better, more on why later).

- Put 1C on 'risers' to put in line with the M12 and 5(B) on stands. I prefer the sound with the tweets/mids of the big boxes a lot higher than stock. Much better sounding soundstage. Not as much sound getting caught in the furniture (the coffee table can be moved and all the ships, too, for hardcore listening).

- Put more high-frequency panels on right wall to balance the diffusion effect of the shelves on the left wall. Made a big difference in balance.

State of the 1C

- Wuhans, top and bottom. New tweeter plates up top based on that 3D screenshot in previous post^. The Daytons are in the 5(B). Once I get at least a pair of 194, I'll compare. Right now, The Daytons were really good in either position- a little too twinkly on at least a couple of songs in the upper position, but those might've been because of the recording. I like them better than Wuhans in the lower position.

- Still burning in the caps. I listen to songs X-Y&Z over and over, switching between songs.

- A lot of songs are totally unenjoyable. Very sad. I blame it, after trying the 5(B), on either the SDA and/or clarity of system- depends on the track. I blame SDA on poorly mixed songs that sound acceptable w/o the interconnect or on the 5(B). Blame it on clarity of mix/system if it sounds awful on regardless of SDA/not and 5(B).

SDA thoughts

Most of the time, it's fantastic.

The soundstage goes from wall-to-wall (and past, and sometimes sounds go all the way forward along the walls (in line with my ears), plus some sounds feel like they're in my skull).

My biggest complaint is that defined instrumentation and voices are mostly limited to a 2ft deep shallow crescent at the front of the room. It's pretty much still what I mapped out in my drawings while evaluating the SDA effect and placement.

Everything is accurate in space along the curved plane, but there isn't as much depth as I want.

I wouldn't have that^ complaint if it wasn't for testing my newly upgraded and modded 5B.

Soundstage on 5(B) vs 1C

My 5(B) turned out great.

- The Daytons kick major butt over the SL2000, for my ears. The 2000 are in the spares box now.

- The phase plugs tighten up the mids/voices, subjectively.

- The redone crossovers make it all sound incredible.

- I'm *really* curious how a pair of L200 would sound, in comparison. I'm betting the tweeter would be a noticeable change. Maybe one day I'll be able to A/B them.

- The soundstage is crazy on these things. There are diffuse tones that extend past the outside edges of the speakers, and other over/undertones that feel like they're at my face. It's similar to SDA, but not as enveloping (on the right song).

- These little things have such an accurate and pleasing sound. Blows my mind. They don't match the 1C for that visceral presence, of course. But, wow.

The biggest difference is the depth of the soundstage.

Maybe it's because the 5(B) are so far into the room?

Yamaha kablooey. Adcom in-progress.

Both Yamaha amps are kaput. Time to sell for parts.

I have a great looking Adcom GFA-555ii ready to pick up next week.

Really excited about it

SDA-1C pair #2 are imminent, too!

I'll finally get to A/B the mods vs. stock!

And get the sweet wood-topped cabinets I wanted.

Extra excited for the package. Really appreciate the seller working with me to areange the sale (It's about 6 hours away, so I areanged a visit with a friend who's only 2 hours from the seller.)

And it has 194s, so I get to test everything.

So.

More after next week!

bcwsrt · August 2023

Is that blue pipe insulation? I must’ve missed that in one of your earlier posts. What’s that do?

Clipdat · August 2023

How long did it take you to perfectly stage that photo?

plastic_avatar · August 2023

@bcwsrt Nope, you didn't miss anything. Just forgot to explain.

Blue noodle = Doing some tests to see if I can replicate/recognize the effect DK said he experienced w/ his speakers and phase plugs.

I'm not noticing a subjective negative without a divider (compared to imaging of 5(B) with or w/o plugs, for example), but I think I prefer the pictured orientation over none. Still a lot of listening/adjusting to do, after I establish a new baseline with the replacement amp. AND further comparisons with virgin mids are coming.

Stage = That's how it looks from my seat- with that left rug I'm waiting to put down all out of place so I can swap wires.

I like symmetry and having things laid out just right.

I mean, why wouldn't I have the NX-01 next to the 1701, close to proportionally correct?

And then the 1701 to the 1701-D the same way?

Balance. I like it.

ChrisD06 · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

A lot of songs are totally unenjoyable. Very sad. I blame it, after trying the 5(B), on either the SDA and/or clarity of system- depends on the track. I blame SDA on poorly mixed songs that sound acceptable w/o the interconnect or on the 5(B). Blame it on clarity of mix/system if it sounds awful on regardless of SDA/not and 5(B).

One thing I noticed after upgrading my 5JR+ were that songs actually sounded unlistenable if the mixing was poor. I was listening to some Rammstein songs from their album Sehnsucht and the midrange was so prominent and yet muddy that it gave me a headache after some time (maybe it was from my neck spazm but I'll blame the song)

plastic_avatar · August 2023

@ChrisD06

I have purposefully not listened to anything off of Sehnsucht yet =( Nor any Eisbrecher and the like.

Unleash the Archers (and I love their last 2 albums dearly) sounds like hot garbage =[

AC/DC? Solid. Back in Black? Wonderful.

ChrisD06 · August 2023

plastic_avatar wrote: »

@ChrisD06

I have purposefully not listened to anything off of Sehnsucht yet =( Nor any Eisbrecher and the like.

Unleash the Archers (and I love their last 2 albums dearly) sounds like hot garbage =[

AC/DC? Solid. Back in Black? Wonderful.

AC/DC sounds great on any speaker if you crank the volume up high enough LOL.

I will say, Metallica songs weren't mastered the best but they actually sound phenomenal on my M5JR+ which I find odd.

Definitely don't miss the midrange on the RT series after using the Monitors for music. The warm detailed vocals are great.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Alrighty, I'll give Justice and Master a try next week

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Next week, after I rearrange my room...

...it'll be time for a face-off!

Super excited.

And the seller was such a nice person. Glad to meet another tall Dad who likes music

He'll mail me the spikes; left them at home. No biggie. I didn't know it came with spikes!

Man, these are so much prettier than mine. Fantastic condition, too.

Will probably 'washer' the tweets and likely print some new plates using the fancy new printer we've got coming for a side business.

I can't wait to compare all the parts!

plastic_avatar · August 2023

I didn't realize the exterior of this model is just the black one, but with top/bottom caps, a nicer grille, and fabric sides glued on for looks.

Crazy how much better they look than stock.

It's like they're another speaker.

F1nut · August 2023

Stock? No, the version without end caps is the Studio.

Nicer grill? The grill frame and cloth are made of the same material on both versions.

Fabric sides? Yeah, yours are peeling off.

skipshot12 · August 2023

That Adcom should do a great job with your Polk's.

Many years back I was torn between Adcom & Phase Linear. Ended up going with Phase Linear only cause I preferred the looks.

Will be following to hear what you think.

plastic_avatar · August 2023

Studio (I know) = stock, meaning the basic underpinnings without the bling.

Grilles = Sure seemed like they're longer, and the fabric is different than my others. Might be my others just have worn fabric...

Sides = Yeah. They came loose on one. No biggie, it's just glue when I get them home.

Adcom = It'll be neat to see how it sounds compared to the Yamahas

I'll have more notes on comparisons next week.

F1nut · August 2023

Yes, the grills are longer on the end cap version, but the same otherwise.

Documenting: My SDA-1c upgrades from start to finish

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