Do power cables make a difference?

mpitogo
mpitogo Posts: 475
edited April 2018 in Electronics
I read another thread that you can hear a difference in power cables. Not to hijack the thread I thought I’d start a new thread. I think it’s a bunch of baloney.

Assuming you have a standard AC outlet how far do you go back to upgrade your wiring? Get new AC outlets? Get new electrical runs? Get new breaker panel? And new breakers? Get new 200A service wire to your house? Request 3 phase commercial power?

A power regulator and noise conditioner I get, the transformers need good clean AC. But what is the point of an upgraded power cord to assuming a standard IEC receptacle. Once the new power cord is plugged in, what kind of wiring is inside? Also I’ve seen fuse upgrades, really? $100 for a new fuse will make a sonic difference? Really, after AC has gone through a transformer (likely) and then rectified and regulated (unless it’s an AC circuit) will the fuse allow more current than a standard one... nope, it’s supposted to commit suiside.

If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.
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«13456714

Comments

  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    giphy.gif
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,010
    They look better.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,524
    Lots of attitude and snark in your post. I'm guessing this thread nosedives as a result.

    To think, you could've approached this a lot differently and actually gotten an intelligent discussion going.
  • DaveHo
    DaveHo Posts: 3,465
    Dis gonna be gud!
  • mlistens03
    mlistens03 Posts: 2,767
    Oh I’m not looking forward to this...
    However I do agree with you that it doesn’t make sense that it would sound better. However I’ve never heard an upgraded power cord so I wouldn’t know.
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    @Conradicles that makes sense. Answer accepted and let’s just leave it at that.
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,775
    I'm still homeless!
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    lightman1 wrote: »
    I'm still homeless!

    Are you going planning on getting a house?
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    I’m all for solid foundations.

    2012 x I have a relatively new power run from the street/electric company, from a new step down transformer to the house.

    2011 - A new 200amp heavy gauge aluminum (electricians choice) service main feed to a new breaker panel. All new breakers and 240V panel/service entrance surge protector. All new electrical outlets with hand torqued screwed down terminals.

    The copper in the walls are still original to the house and should still be viable if left undisturbed with some minor oxidation. I run standard power cords to a Panamax regulator & filter, conditioner and the standard included power cables to the audio components.
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
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    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
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    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
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  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    Nightfall wrote: »
    lightman1 wrote: »
    I'm still homeless!

    Are you going planning on getting a house?

    How'd that going get in there? Keyboard ghosts.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,034
    edited April 2018
    "Do power cables make a difference"? Hmmm; I'll be finding that out today firsthand rather than relying on internet speculation. I have a pair of 7 gauge Pangeas arriving today that are 10' long which allows me to go all the way back to the breaker panel. At the panel yesterday I installed a pair of dedicated 20 amp receptacles with a mere 10 gauge wire for their short 18'' run out from the panel. My guess is there's going to be a very noticeable difference on my 1200 wpc monoblocks with their 124 s/n ratio. On a receiver based rig with a short cord plugged into a crowded circuit my best guess is no it more than likely won't make an audible difference.

    There is a possibility to that just maybe those power supplies in my monoblocks won't benefit. If the thread isn't shut down by the end of the day I'll come back and post my findings :)
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Is there any documented measured difference? I've see other threads asking this question and have even asked myself, and I can't recall ever seeing documentation showing an acoustic difference. I know in car audio, you can choke an amp with too small a wire, but in those cases the amps can draw over 200A@14vdc. Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    @motorstereo in cases where you are near the circuit rating of a 5-15 to C14 plug, even if it’s for a transient, it would be best to move to the higher voltage rating. The MC1.25KW monoblocks look to peak at 12A at 120V, moving to 240V its 6.5A and much better headroom. I looked at the manual and I couldn’t tell if voltages are switchable, or if you need to order the desired voltage. Also if you run dual outlets for each and want a good balance each should go to a different phase on the main for symmetrical current draw, hot 1 and hot 2 are out of phase coming off a transformer where center tap is bonded to neutral and ground.

    Does matching the phase also make a difference? Assuming we’re using the standard 120v and not a 240v outlet.
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, DSW microPRO3000 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz HD-CD1
    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    @BlueFox I’m not doing this for amusement? Also I purposely did not post my questions and opinions in another thread to take it off topic or disrespect and disrupt the flow. I fact going by troll standards you did exactly that. Do power cords make a difference?
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, DSW microPRO3000 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz HD-CD1
    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,851
    if you enjoy the sound you are getting from your system, why worry about it.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • mrbigbluelight
    mrbigbluelight Posts: 9,167
    Do power cords make a difference ?
    Some people can hear a difference.
    Some people can't.

    Now, for a brief musical interlude while we take a brief break for complimentary snacks and beverages in the lobby.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKUJGNtS2M
    Sal Palooza
  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,034
    mpitogo wrote: »
    @motorstereo in cases where you are near the circuit rating of a 5-15 to C14 plug, even if it’s for a transient, it would be best to move to the higher voltage rating. The MC1.25KW monoblocks look to peak at 12A at 120V, moving to 240V its 6.5A and much better headroom. I looked at the manual and I couldn’t tell if voltages are switchable, or if you need to order the desired voltage. Also if you run dual outlets for each and want a good balance each should go to a different phase on the main for symmetrical current draw, hot 1 and hot 2 are out of phase coming off a transformer where center tap is bonded to neutral and ground.

    Does matching the phase also make a difference? Assuming we’re using the standard 120v and not a 240v outlet.

    Yes the MC1201's are switchable to 240 volts but it's more involved than I want to get into. I can also say with complete confidence there will never ever be a time where I'll need that extra headroom either. 99% of the time they run at sane levels. During that other 1% I still don't come anywhere near their limits to my knowledge. I ran them what I thought was very hard for several hours and they were barely even at operating temperature.
    Yes I have each receptacle wired to the opposite 120 taps. If there's a problem (hum?) doing it that way I've made things easy to swap back to using both amps on the same 120 tap.
  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,969
    edited April 2018
    tonyb wrote: »
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Is there any documented measured difference? I've see other threads asking this question and have even asked myself, and I can't recall ever seeing documentation showing an acoustic difference. I know in car audio, you can choke an amp with too small a wire, but in those cases the amps can draw over 200A@14vdc. Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.

    Does it matter ? Many things in audio "measure" differently, but still not audible. There are some things that measurements simply can't tell you. Like soundstage width and height, how well it will gel with the rest of your system, clarity and dynamics, decay. All that may not apply to power cables specifically, but do to cables in general.

    Power cables, like all cables, add or subtract from the overall sound. To what degree depends on many variables. Your not going to put a 200 buck power cord on a 400 buck receiver, know what I'm saying ?

    The more revealing your system gets, the more these other changes become more noticeable, and the more they will contribute to the overall sound. Audio, being subjective as it is too, is hard to attach blanket statements to. Just sayin'....because most who deny xyz in audio, either never tried them, never tried them under the right scenarios, or simply have no idea what they are listening for.

    I say "under the right scenarios", because some may just do as I explained with a 200 buck power cord and a 400 buck receiver. The better your system gets, the more power cords can and will make a difference, maybe small, maybe large, depends.
    Regardless of the specifics, (ICs, cables, etc) much wisdom in the above. When I feel I’ve done all the big stuff, and I believe I’ve just three* remaining, I will begin that journey.
    * prepro upgrade, acoustics, bi-** or tri**-amped surrounds,
    ** depending upon your point of view

    Tony
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work
  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    Your setup has become tiresome. Play it!
  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,492
    mpitogo wrote: »
    I read another thread that you can hear a difference in power cables. Not to hijack the thread I thought I’d start a new thread. I think it’s a bunch of baloney.

    Assuming you have a standard AC outlet how far do you go back to upgrade your wiring? Get new AC outlets? Get new electrical runs? Get new breaker panel? And new breakers? Get new 200A service wire to your house? Request 3 phase commercial power?

    A power regulator and noise conditioner I get, the transformers need good clean AC. But what is the point of an upgraded power cord to assuming a standard IEC receptacle. Once the new power cord is plugged in, what kind of wiring is inside? Also I’ve seen fuse upgrades, really? $100 for a new fuse will make a sonic difference? Really, after AC has gone through a transformer (likely) and then rectified and regulated (unless it’s an AC circuit) will the fuse allow more current than a standard one... nope, it’s supposted to commit suiside.

    If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

    Just try it and see what it does for you and your system. You might be surprised. I think of it as an antenna, reduces excess noise picked up from the surrounding. Also, better power cords have larger gauge wiring which helps with current transmission.

    I do agree with you though, how does that last 3 feet help when the internal 300 feet is standard run o' the mill 12g wiring? That I have yet to figure out.

    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,874
    edited April 2018
    In general in life (I think) there is considerable value added for a person by manifesting the following characteristics.

    * An open mind
    * An empirical but informed approach to acquiring infromation on a subject
    * A healthy skepticism (but stopping short of cynicism)
    * An earnest interest in seeking out and understanding the underlying how and why of any claims.

    Here's one quantum of food for thought vis-a-vis wires of any sort. How important are the terminations (i.e., the interfaces) between components and their interconnections? In the case of power cords -- how important is the blade/socket connection from the wall to the cord and the IEC connector/cord connector at the component end. Is it not plausible that resistance (or AC impedance) at the interfaces might make a difference, independent of anything else?

    The nice thing is that these are testable hypotheses.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,874
    edited April 2018
    Joe Roberts -- the redoubtable founder of the great (and much missed) Sound Practices magazine of the 1990s -- is a well-educated guy (anthropologist) who's spent much of his life chasing the hifi dragon, running in some pretty rarefied circles and, more to the point, building up a huge practical database of experience informed by "book" knowledge and a true and abiding love of and enthusiasm for the subject.

    Joe's recently written some (I would suggest) cogent and insightful commentary on how darn hard it can be to tease apart the objective and subjective in this furshlugginer hobby. I offer a couple of examples -- these may be a little arcane in the abstract... but I'd encourage anyone with an interest in this hobby to peruse the threads from which these posts were taken.

    http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/heater-wire-question.3470/#post-64775
    http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/truly-fantastic-tube-phono-kit-for-beginners.3471/page-7#post-65734

    Open ears & an open mind are excellent tools, I'd opine.

  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    Gotta love it. Go to 10:30 on this video.
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, DSW microPRO3000 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz HD-CD1
    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    mpitogo wrote: »
    If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

    This is troll territory.

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    BlueFox wrote: »
    mpitogo wrote: »
    If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

    This is troll territory.

    Territory?
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,524