Do power cables make a difference?

mpitogo · April 2018

I read another thread that you can hear a difference in power cables. Not to hijack the thread I thought I’d start a new thread. I think it’s a bunch of baloney.

Assuming you have a standard AC outlet how far do you go back to upgrade your wiring? Get new AC outlets? Get new electrical runs? Get new breaker panel? And new breakers? Get new 200A service wire to your house? Request 3 phase commercial power?

A power regulator and noise conditioner I get, the transformers need good clean AC. But what is the point of an upgraded power cord to assuming a standard IEC receptacle. Once the new power cord is plugged in, what kind of wiring is inside? Also I’ve seen fuse upgrades, really? $100 for a new fuse will make a sonic difference? Really, after AC has gone through a transformer (likely) and then rectified and regulated (unless it’s an AC circuit) will the fuse allow more current than a standard one... nope, it’s supposted to commit suiside.

If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

Nightfall · April 2018

Conradicles · April 2018

They look better.

Clipdat · April 2018

Lots of attitude and snark in your post. I'm guessing this thread nosedives as a result.

To think, you could've approached this a lot differently and actually gotten an intelligent discussion going.

DaveHo · April 2018

Dis gonna be gud!

mlistens03 · April 2018

Oh I’m not looking forward to this...
However I do agree with you that it doesn’t make sense that it would sound better. However I’ve never heard an upgraded power cord so I wouldn’t know.

mpitogo · April 2018

@Conradicles that makes sense. Answer accepted and let’s just leave it at that.

BlueFox · April 2018

At last. A new troll. Things have been too quiet around here lately.

lightman1 · April 2018

I'm still homeless!

Nightfall · April 2018

lightman1 wrote: »

I'm still homeless!

Are you going planning on getting a house?

mpitogo · April 2018

I’m all for solid foundations.

2012 x I have a relatively new power run from the street/electric company, from a new step down transformer to the house.

2011 - A new 200amp heavy gauge aluminum (electricians choice) service main feed to a new breaker panel. All new breakers and 240V panel/service entrance surge protector. All new electrical outlets with hand torqued screwed down terminals.

The copper in the walls are still original to the house and should still be viable if left undisturbed with some minor oxidation. I run standard power cords to a Panamax regulator & filter, conditioner and the standard included power cables to the audio components.

pitdogg2 · April 2018

In before the lock

And Russ you're not homeless ... home deprived maybe not homeless.

Nightfall · April 2018

Nightfall wrote: »

lightman1 wrote: »

I'm still homeless!

Are you going planning on getting a house?

How'd that going get in there? Keyboard ghosts.

motorstereo · April 2018

"Do power cables make a difference"? Hmmm; I'll be finding that out today firsthand rather than relying on internet speculation. I have a pair of 7 gauge Pangeas arriving today that are 10' long which allows me to go all the way back to the breaker panel. At the panel yesterday I installed a pair of dedicated 20 amp receptacles with a mere 10 gauge wire for their short 18'' run out from the panel. My guess is there's going to be a very noticeable difference on my 1200 wpc monoblocks with their 124 s/n ratio. On a receiver based rig with a short cord plugged into a crowded circuit my best guess is no it more than likely won't make an audible difference.

There is a possibility to that just maybe those power supplies in my monoblocks won't benefit. If the thread isn't shut down by the end of the day I'll come back and post my findings

tonyb · April 2018

mlistens03 wrote: »

Oh I’m not looking forward to this...
However I do agree with you that it doesn’t make sense that it would sound better. However I’ve never heard an upgraded power cord so I wouldn’t know.

That's a start. Wish I had a nickel for all the things in audio some never knew....until they tried them themselves.

FestYboy · April 2018

Is there any documented measured difference? I've see other threads asking this question and have even asked myself, and I can't recall ever seeing documentation showing an acoustic difference. I know in car audio, you can choke an amp with too small a wire, but in those cases the amps can draw over 200A@14vdc. Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.

tonyb · April 2018

FestYboy wrote: »

Is there any documented measured difference? I've see other threads asking this question and have even asked myself, and I can't recall ever seeing documentation showing an acoustic difference. I know in car audio, you can choke an amp with too small a wire, but in those cases the amps can draw over 200A@14vdc. Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.

Does it matter ? Many things in audio "measure" differently, but still not audible. There are some things that measurements simply can't tell you. Like soundstage width and height, how well it will gel with the rest of your system, clarity and dynamics, decay. All that may not apply to power cables specifically, but do to cables in general.

Power cables, like all cables, add or subtract from the overall sound. To what degree depends on many variables. Your not going to put a 200 buck power cord on a 400 buck receiver, know what I'm saying ?

The more revealing your system gets, the more these other changes become more noticeable, and the more they will contribute to the overall sound. Audio, being subjective as it is too, is hard to attach blanket statements to. Just sayin'....because most who deny xyz in audio, either never tried them, never tried them under the right scenarios, or simply have no idea what they are listening for.

I say "under the right scenarios", because some may just do as I explained with a 200 buck power cord and a 400 buck receiver. The better your system gets, the more power cords can and will make a difference, maybe small, maybe large, depends.

mpitogo · April 2018

@motorstereo in cases where you are near the circuit rating of a 5-15 to C14 plug, even if it’s for a transient, it would be best to move to the higher voltage rating. The MC1.25KW monoblocks look to peak at 12A at 120V, moving to 240V its 6.5A and much better headroom. I looked at the manual and I couldn’t tell if voltages are switchable, or if you need to order the desired voltage. Also if you run dual outlets for each and want a good balance each should go to a different phase on the main for symmetrical current draw, hot 1 and hot 2 are out of phase coming off a transformer where center tap is bonded to neutral and ground.

Does matching the phase also make a difference? Assuming we’re using the standard 120v and not a 240v outlet.

mpitogo · April 2018

@BlueFox I’m not doing this for amusement? Also I purposely did not post my questions and opinions in another thread to take it off topic or disrespect and disrupt the flow. I fact going by troll standards you did exactly that. Do power cords make a difference?

marvda1 · April 2018

if you enjoy the sound you are getting from your system, why worry about it.

mrbigbluelight · April 2018

Do power cords make a difference ?
Some people can hear a difference.
Some people can't.

Now, for a brief musical interlude while we take a brief break for complimentary snacks and beverages in the lobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKUJGNtS2M

motorstereo · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

@motorstereo in cases where you are near the circuit rating of a 5-15 to C14 plug, even if it’s for a transient, it would be best to move to the higher voltage rating. The MC1.25KW monoblocks look to peak at 12A at 120V, moving to 240V its 6.5A and much better headroom. I looked at the manual and I couldn’t tell if voltages are switchable, or if you need to order the desired voltage. Also if you run dual outlets for each and want a good balance each should go to a different phase on the main for symmetrical current draw, hot 1 and hot 2 are out of phase coming off a transformer where center tap is bonded to neutral and ground.

Does matching the phase also make a difference? Assuming we’re using the standard 120v and not a 240v outlet.

Yes the MC1201's are switchable to 240 volts but it's more involved than I want to get into. I can also say with complete confidence there will never ever be a time where I'll need that extra headroom either. 99% of the time they run at sane levels. During that other 1% I still don't come anywhere near their limits to my knowledge. I ran them what I thought was very hard for several hours and they were barely even at operating temperature.
Yes I have each receptacle wired to the opposite 120 taps. If there's a problem (hum?) doing it that way I've made things easy to swap back to using both amps on the same 120 tap.

gp4jesus · April 2018

tonyb wrote: »

FestYboy wrote: »

Is there any documented measured difference? I've see other threads asking this question and have even asked myself, and I can't recall ever seeing documentation showing an acoustic difference. I know in car audio, you can choke an amp with too small a wire, but in those cases the amps can draw over 200A@14vdc. Any kind of draw like that in a home audio amp happens internally, after the transformer/rectifier.

Does it matter ? Many things in audio "measure" differently, but still not audible. There are some things that measurements simply can't tell you. Like soundstage width and height, how well it will gel with the rest of your system, clarity and dynamics, decay. All that may not apply to power cables specifically, but do to cables in general.

Power cables, like all cables, add or subtract from the overall sound. To what degree depends on many variables. Your not going to put a 200 buck power cord on a 400 buck receiver, know what I'm saying ?

The more revealing your system gets, the more these other changes become more noticeable, and the more they will contribute to the overall sound. Audio, being subjective as it is too, is hard to attach blanket statements to. Just sayin'....because most who deny xyz in audio, either never tried them, never tried them under the right scenarios, or simply have no idea what they are listening for.

I say "under the right scenarios", because some may just do as I explained with a 200 buck power cord and a 400 buck receiver. The better your system gets, the more power cords can and will make a difference, maybe small, maybe large, depends.

Regardless of the specifics, (ICs, cables, etc) much wisdom in the above. When I feel I’ve done all the big stuff, and I believe I’ve just three* remaining, I will begin that journey.
* prepro upgrade, acoustics, bi-** or tri**-amped surrounds,
** depending upon your point of view

Tony

afterburnt · April 2018

Your setup has become tiresome. Play it!

Joey_V · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

I read another thread that you can hear a difference in power cables. Not to hijack the thread I thought I’d start a new thread. I think it’s a bunch of baloney.

Assuming you have a standard AC outlet how far do you go back to upgrade your wiring? Get new AC outlets? Get new electrical runs? Get new breaker panel? And new breakers? Get new 200A service wire to your house? Request 3 phase commercial power?

A power regulator and noise conditioner I get, the transformers need good clean AC. But what is the point of an upgraded power cord to assuming a standard IEC receptacle. Once the new power cord is plugged in, what kind of wiring is inside? Also I’ve seen fuse upgrades, really? $100 for a new fuse will make a sonic difference? Really, after AC has gone through a transformer (likely) and then rectified and regulated (unless it’s an AC circuit) will the fuse allow more current than a standard one... nope, it’s supposted to commit suiside.

If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

Just try it and see what it does for you and your system. You might be surprised. I think of it as an antenna, reduces excess noise picked up from the surrounding. Also, better power cords have larger gauge wiring which helps with current transmission.

I do agree with you though, how does that last 3 feet help when the internal 300 feet is standard run o' the mill 12g wiring? That I have yet to figure out.

mhardy6647 · April 2018

In general in life (I think) there is considerable value added for a person by manifesting the following characteristics.

* An open mind
* An empirical but informed approach to acquiring infromation on a subject
* A healthy skepticism (but stopping short of cynicism)
* An earnest interest in seeking out and understanding the underlying how and why of any claims.

Here's one quantum of food for thought vis-a-vis wires of any sort. How important are the terminations (i.e., the interfaces) between components and their interconnections? In the case of power cords -- how important is the blade/socket connection from the wall to the cord and the IEC connector/cord connector at the component end. Is it not plausible that resistance (or AC impedance) at the interfaces might make a difference, independent of anything else?

The nice thing is that these are testable hypotheses.

mhardy6647 · April 2018

Joe Roberts -- the redoubtable founder of the great (and much missed) Sound Practices magazine of the 1990s -- is a well-educated guy (anthropologist) who's spent much of his life chasing the hifi dragon, running in some pretty rarefied circles and, more to the point, building up a huge practical database of experience informed by "book" knowledge and a true and abiding love of and enthusiasm for the subject.

Joe's recently written some (I would suggest) cogent and insightful commentary on how darn hard it can be to tease apart the objective and subjective in this furshlugginer hobby. I offer a couple of examples -- these may be a little arcane in the abstract... but I'd encourage anyone with an interest in this hobby to peruse the threads from which these posts were taken.

http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/heater-wire-question.3470/#post-64775
http://www.hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/truly-fantastic-tube-phono-kit-for-beginners.3471/page-7#post-65734

Open ears & an open mind are excellent tools, I'd opine.

mpitogo · April 2018

Gotta love it. Go to 10:30 on this video.

BlueFox · April 2018

mpitogo wrote: »

If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

This is troll territory.

afterburnt · April 2018

BlueFox wrote: »

mpitogo wrote: »

If people continue to buy, there will always be a market for suckers IMHO.

This is troll territory.

Territory?

Clipdat · April 2018

afterburnt wrote: »

Territory?

Do power cables make a difference?

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