12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

Hermitism wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Do you remember the single edge razor blade? Then they came out with two edges on top, and so forth. What are they up to, razor blades with 5 blades on top to give you the latest, greatest shave? Lets add another, audiophile razor blade and have the 6 blade audio quest Shavemaster Razor. LOL!

I still use my double edge razor from the 70s and it works fine.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert when it comes to audio, but I can speak to my own personal experience with razors. I can say without doubt that upgrading the cable to my beard trimmer resulted in a smoother shave, higher revving motor resulting in a faster moving blade, and a quicker recharge rate. I even started a thread about in 2014.

Oooh, I'll check that out. I use an electric pet trimmer for mine
(well it was sold for human use, but it's identical, attachments and all, to one some friends of ours had for their dog).

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

The reason they make all those different versions is that they want to separate you from the money in your wallet. It is called marketing.

Do you remember the single edge razor blade? Then they came out with two edges on top, and so forth. What are they up to, razor blades with 5 blades on top to give you the latest, greatest shave? Lets add another, audiophile razor blade and have the 6 blade audio quest Shavemaster Razor. LOL!

I still use my double edge razor from the 70s and it works fine.

Here is a link to the Cable Company. You can actually by a pair of $55,000 speaker cables from them. They are way past the 6 blade audio quest Shavemaster Razor.

https://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/Speaker-Cables

Eh, your hitting the extremes of audio. For some, it's hard to comprehend things in audio outside their own realm of affordability. You'll find most opinions in audio travel along side wallet sizes. Is a Ferrari worth the coin ? A 5k suit from a fancy Italian designer ?

I couldn't tell ya, never driven a Ferrari or worn a suit of that caliber. Perhaps if I did in either case, I'd better understand their value.

Obviously extreme examples, but you get the point. Try something to better understand the value for yourself. It may have some...or none, when all is said and done. There are no guarantees in life with anything, just experiences.

If your happy with the sound your getting now, then pay no mind to anything and simply enjoy your tunes. Nothing wrong with that at all. If your the curious type when it comes to cables, I have a few simple rules for you.

1- Only spend what you can afford.....have a budget in mind.

2- Buy used....to further the bang for your buck. Plus should you not like xyz cable, you could re-sell a used cable and not lose much money if any at all.

3- Ask for recommendations. Put more weight on the advice from those you think are more aligned with your preferences in sound and music or have similar gear to work with. This vastly narrows your search, and limits the risk of buying a cable you may not like. Not everything you try will be a winner.

If you stick to those 3 rules, you'll be able to experience some different sound signatures with cables and not spend or lose boat loads of coin. Once you find a sound signature within a brand of cables you like, then you can explore their higher series of cables. Every brand has a number of series and the improvements usually, but not always improve the higher up you go.

I hope my ramblings help you make sense of it all. I realize too some of this audio stuff is hard to fathom for us old f a r t s. Nothing ventured, nothing gained though, right ? Since we are both of....um...age, just a reminder that we have learned things over the coarse of our lives not from the things we did right, but the many things we did wrong. In audio, too many are afraid to learn things, because they are afraid of being wrong, and thus costing them money in the process. So they never try anything and stay stagnant.

That's the beauty of this forum, you have resources....a fantastic membership with all sorts of experience from the most mundane systems, to DIY stuff, computers and HT, digital, up to high end systems that cost as much as a new Mercedes. Use it when it's appropriate for you is all I'm sayin'. Fantastic people here, pick their brains when your need arises. No hurry, no pushing....your in the drivers seat. Good luck to you.

oh, well -- I think we tried.

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Hermitism wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Do you remember the single edge razor blade? Then they came out with two edges on top, and so forth. What are they up to, razor blades with 5 blades on top to give you the latest, greatest shave? Lets add another, audiophile razor blade and have the 6 blade audio quest Shavemaster Razor. LOL!

I still use my double edge razor from the 70s and it works fine.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert when it comes to audio, but I can speak to my own personal experience with razors. I can say without doubt that upgrading the cable to my beard trimmer resulted in a smoother shave, higher revving motor resulting in a faster moving blade, and a quicker recharge rate. I even started a thread about in 2014.

Oooh, I'll check that out. I use an electric pet trimmer for mine
(well it was sold for human use, but it's identical, attachments and all, to one some friends of ours had for their dog).

BINGO !

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

The reason they make all those different versions is that they want to separate you from the money in your wallet. It is called marketing.

Do you remember the single edge razor blade? Then they came out with two edges on top, and so forth. What are they up to, razor blades with 5 blades on top to give you the latest, greatest shave? Lets add another, audiophile razor blade and have the 6 blade audio quest Shavemaster Razor. LOL!

I still use my double edge razor from the 70s and it works fine.

Here is a link to the Cable Company. You can actually by a pair of $55,000 speaker cables from them. They are way past the 6 blade audio quest Shavemaster Razor.

https://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/Speaker-Cables

Eh, your hitting the extremes of audio. For some, it's hard to comprehend things in audio outside their own realm of affordability. You'll find most opinions in audio travel along side wallet sizes. Is a Ferrari worth the coin ? A 5k suit from a fancy Italian designer ?

I couldn't tell ya, never driven a Ferrari or worn a suit of that caliber. Perhaps if I did in either case, I'd better understand their value.

Obviously extreme examples, but you get the point. Try something to better understand the value for yourself. It may have some...or none, when all is said and done. There are no guarantees in life with anything, just experiences.

If your happy with the sound your getting now, then pay no mind to anything and simply enjoy your tunes. Nothing wrong with that at all. If your the curious type when it comes to cables, I have a few simple rules for you.

1- Only spend what you can afford.....have a budget in mind.

2- Buy used....to further the bang for your buck. Plus should you not like xyz cable, you could re-sell a used cable and not lose much money if any at all.

3- Ask for recommendations. Put more weight on the advice from those you think are more aligned with your preferences in sound and music or have similar gear to work with. This vastly narrows your search, and limits the risk of buying a cable you may not like. Not everything you try will be a winner.

If you stick to those 3 rules, you'll be able to experience some different sound signatures with cables and not spend or lose boat loads of coin. Once you find a sound signature within a brand of cables you like, then you can explore their higher series of cables. Every brand has a number of series and the improvements usually, but not always improve the higher up you go.

I hope my ramblings help you make sense of it all. I realize too some of this audio stuff is hard to fathom for us old f a r t s. Nothing ventured, nothing gained though, right ? Since we are both of....um...age, just a reminder that we have learned things over the coarse of our lives not from the things we did right, but the many things we did wrong. In audio, too many are afraid to learn things, because they are afraid of being wrong, and thus costing them money in the process. So they never try anything and stay stagnant.

That's the beauty of this forum, you have resources....a fantastic membership with all sorts of experience from the most mundane systems, to DIY stuff, computers and HT, digital, up to high end systems that cost as much as a new Mercedes. Use it when it's appropriate for you is all I'm sayin'. Fantastic people here, pick their brains when your need arises. No hurry, no pushing....your in the drivers seat. Good luck to you.

Hi Tony:

Thanks for the advice.

I know you have a much nicer system than I have and you've been at this stuff much longer than I have. I am happy for you and hope you get daily enjoyment. Some people put 300K into motor homes that they seldom use and they sit in their driveways! Nice audio equipment trounces the motor home idea. Especially with Motel 6s all around. I rather have a $5,000 Italian suit and the shoes that go with them than the motor home. Some people do both.

Probably for the next few years, I will have 12 gauge copper speaker wires and better mid-fi cables. Just getting what I'm doing done takes almost all of my niggard abilities (Svenska for frugal on steroids). Before I branch out and try higher end cables, I need to do first things first. If it all sounds great after I'm done, I would probably prefer to buy 5.1 Dolby concert videos instead of spending a boat load on cables. The concert video angle is what tipped the scale for me from going from 2.1 stereo to 5.1 surround. A great sounding mid-fi system, not audiophile level, has been my target all along. Basically, I want to get to the best sound I can within a certain budget, and then be happy with what I have.

Cool man, you go at your own pace, make small improvements when and where you can. Audio isn't a race....we all just get to a point that we like what we hear from our systems and can afford it.

Many of us have been in your spot though, especially when something new comes out. Concert BR Discs can sound awesome, but because of that one wonders how much better it can sound, ...if...you changed this or that.

See what I'm sayin' ? Though we all have different wallets that keeps us in check, if we want to eat next week or pay the mortgage. Just be comfortable in what you spend, happy in what you hear, and enjoy your music how you see fit. That's it, no Harvard degree needed to figure this stuff out.

I've found a good way to get acquainted with expert advise pertaining to audio is to go to You Tube and type- [ RMAF Audio Seminars] there is over 100 seminars dealing with the full range of audio topics from past festivals

F1nut wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

I however have learned from the industries best and learned one common thing coming from engineers who make wire and who make the equipment that needs to be connected to that wire. Once you achieve the goal of passing along the signal from A to B there is nothing more you can do to make anything better. You can certainly harm the signal with poor designed wire, in proper gauge and a ton of other factors like EMI and RF interference.

And yet your current flavor of the month cable company makes a multitude of versions from inexpensive entry to expensive TOTL, so if what you learned from the engineers at AudioQuest is that once you achieve the goal of passing along the signal from A to B there is nothing more you can do to make anything better then why do you think they make all those versions?

I've been using Audioquest cables since 2004 so I wouldn't consider them a flavor of the month. It's 2017 if you haven't checked the calendar lately.
As far as who I heard that statement from was not just audioquest but from many Audio and Video manufactures. To name a few would be B&W , Definitive Technology, Audio Control, NAD , Harman International , Theil , Cardas the list goes on and on man.
So to answer your question about why do they make so many cables is easy. They built the best cables then can in the WEL signature series spare no expense . Then from there they build down to make more affordable priced cables for people who can't afford perfection but want better quality cables at their respected price points.
This is true of the brands I have come to respect and that list is very short.
Audioquest
Cardas
Kimber Kable
As a consumer you can call them at any time to get any info you need. You don't have to be a professional like myself to get this info.

I stick with Audioquest as I find them to be the best overall cables in the industry. Nothing made at any price IMO is better, nothing. Thats my opinion and we don't have to share it. Your a MIT guy and as I am not for many reason, I respect that. You have your reasons why you feel they are the best cables for your system and I'm sure you have plenty of reasons why. We don't have to agree.

This thread sucks as usual and why I tend not to get that involved. My advise has been given and I'm leaving it at that.

Carry on.

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Do you have some specific examples? If they are as bad as you have said, such examples should be easy to come by.

I have never been onto that site. I have been a moderator of 2 different audio forums for a combined time of 16 years or so and I have read many comments over the years that this site (I believe Audioholics is the one) claims that all amps and cables are alike.

Maybe not every member but from what I understand, the vast majority. I've even seen them from time to time invade this forum to teach us "the way". Please forgive me if I referred to the wrong site but I'm pretty sure that's the one I'm thinking of. They pop up on the radar all the time with comments of delusion when it comes to audio and the reproductive effort thereof.

Perhaps a veteran of this forum can confirm or correct me. I have zero desire to visit that site for any reason, including this one to be honest.

Tom

mantis wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

I however have learned from the industries best and learned one common thing coming from engineers who make wire and who make the equipment that needs to be connected to that wire. Once you achieve the goal of passing along the signal from A to B there is nothing more you can do to make anything better. You can certainly harm the signal with poor designed wire, in proper gauge and a ton of other factors like EMI and RF interference.

And yet your current flavor of the month cable company makes a multitude of versions from inexpensive entry to expensive TOTL, so if what you learned from the engineers at AudioQuest is that once you achieve the goal of passing along the signal from A to B there is nothing more you can do to make anything better then why do you think they make all those versions?

I've been using Audioquest cables since 2004 so I wouldn't consider them a flavor of the month. It's 2017 if you haven't checked the calendar lately.
As far as who I heard that statement from was not just audioquest but from many Audio and Video manufactures. To name a few would be B&W , Definitive Technology, Audio Control, NAD , Harman International , Theil , Cardas the list goes on and on man.
So to answer your question about why do they make so many cables is easy. They built the best cables then can in the WEL signature series spare no expense . Then from there they build down to make more affordable priced cables for people who can't afford perfection but want better quality cables at their respected price points.
This is true of the brands I have come to respect and that list is very short.
Audioquest
Cardas
Kimber Kable
As a consumer you can call them at any time to get any info you need. You don't have to be a professional like myself to get this info.

I stick with Audioquest as I find them to be the best overall cables in the industry. Nothing made at any price IMO is better, nothing. Thats my opinion and we don't have to share it. Your a MIT guy and as I am not for many reason, I respect that. You have your reasons why you feel they are the best cables for your system and I'm sure you have plenty of reasons why. We don't have to agree.

This thread sucks as usual and why I tend not to get that involved. My advise has been given and I'm leaving it at that.

Carry on.

Now Dan, I know you have not been using AudioQuest since 2004, but whatever.

So, you've acknowledged that cable A can pass the signal better than cable B from the same company. Thank you.

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi Tom:

Part of the problem some people may have with Audioholics is that they lean heavily on a scientific approach while others may instead lean more heavily on subjective evaluation.

Audioholics does have several articles that debunk some elaborate claims about some speaker cables and other connects made by well known cable manufacturers. They call their claims "snake oil." Then they explain why. There is nothing wrong with this. The snake oil assertion refers to the selling of wonder cure drugs back in the unregulated 1800s (before the Food and Drug Administration). They apply electrical engineering science to testing products and fact checking claims by cable mfgs, or amp mfgs, etc. They test the specs given for various speakers.

What they do should help keep the audio industry more honest than if no one was checking it out and evaluating claims, given specs, etc.

Many people do not like someone roasting their sacred cow speaker cable or other audio product and either exposing some of the claims as false or giving it a 2 or 3 star rating. I'm not surprised that Audioholics has both a loyal following and a vocal opposition.

Yup, I need no verification now. That's the site.

I believe one our esteemed members here has a quote in his signature from a very wise person. Perhaps it was Nelson Pass.........[EDIT:] I actually I looked it up. It was.

Mr. Nelson Pass wrote:

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".

Please pay particular attention to what this quote states. Read it. Study it and learn from it. This is one of the greatest audio related quotes I have ever ran across and it would be included in my signature but alas, it was taken by Heiney9. He gets the credit for such an AWESOME, genuine, completely accurate and truthful quote.

Tom

DSkip wrote: »

AH is also heavily invested in home theater. I find it almost impossible to determine cables in a HT rig, with compromised items like a receiver in the chain and visuals to draw attention away.

Normally for HT enthusiasts I never recommend cable upgrades. There are other areas that improve their experiences with less investment.

To a request in Kansas. Ryan said don't bring up cables

This right here is why you are discounted as a legitimate source for information.

Tom