Warm up time or is it my ears?
Comments
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Now I'm really confused; first, the tests were conducted over two years, using all kinds of biased controlled tests. You also state you used your equipment, as well as a dealer's, using several amps, preamps, CD players, etc.
Then you reply that the tests were done in one day on the same equipment.
I am not being a martinet here, I really don't know if we are referring to the same things, just hoping you'd clarify.
I'm sorry. I thought you were referring to the first digital cable comparison. Yes, we did do many comparisons over a two year period at two different venues. However, each test was done on a single day at a single venue. In other words, if we were testing interconnect cables, all of them were tested the same day at the same place. -
You must give a "whit" since you are spreading your opinion all over the place. If you didn't care, you'd make your opinion statement and move on. But you are hell bent on telling everyone that doesn't believe your opinion they are wrong.
Time to move along as you've made your views and opinions known. See, it's getting to a point where you are beating a dead horse and becoming annoying. People that truly don't give a "whit" don't act like you are acting.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
...and in the time span of 10 seconds. LOLPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You must give a "whit" since you are spreading your opinion all over the place. If you didn't care, you'd make your opinion statement and move on. But you are hell bent on telling everyone that doesn't believe your opinion they are wrong.
Time to move along as you've made your views and opinions known. See, it's getting to a point where you are beating a dead horse and becoming annoying. People that truly don't give a "whit" don't act like you are acting.
H9
You misunderstand. I don't give a whit about an audiophile's opinion of sound quality. I do give a whit about providing information that I think might be useful to newcomers. The audio industry is a cesspool of misinformation.
Are you somehow afraid of what I write? Since you want to silence me, why not ask the site owner to ask me to leave. I will do so if the site owner doesn't want me to post here. But I won't do it for you. -
I tried to listen to 10 second snippets of different music last night. Most frustrating and annoying session I've ever had. Talk about an ineffective method of music evaluation.
Let's just read the first sentence of each chapter of a book and then make a review about it. That's what the 10 second evaluation seems like.
Completely ineffective and ridiculous as it has no basis in how one realistically listens to and enjoys music.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
Without facts to back up your "testing" all you are doing is the same thing everyone else is doing here...expressing an opinion. And your opinion is not any more or less valid than anyone elses without fact to back it up. It is an opinion and you have expressed it.
I accept that. So why all the passion aimed at silencing me? If you don't like the opinion you can ignore it. Opinions don't hurt do they?Why do you internet crusaders find it necessary to save people from themselves? You are no better than the rabid televangelists trying to save people from eternal damnation. Give it up. I won't change your mind, you won't change anybody's mind here so move along to somewhere else where your intolerant opinions are tolerated.
I'm not willing to be silenced by you either. Have the site owner talk to me. As to your insults, I choose not to respond.
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You misunderstand. I don't give a whit about an audiophile's opinion of sound quality. I do give a whit about providing information that I think might be useful to newcomers. The audio industry is a cesspool of misinformation.
Are you somehow afraid of what I write? Since you want to silence me, why not ask the site owner to ask me to leave. I will do so if the site owner doesn't want me to post here. But I won't do it for you.
Not trying to silence anyone, just stating an observation that you are rather singularly focused on a very narrow subject and really beating it to death. Are you that one dimensional and only here to troll about it? Or are you here to also become a part of the community and discuss other things related to audio.
We get your POV, I'm simply saying to move on or it makes you look like a bitter troll.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
I'm not willing to be silenced by you either. Have the site owner talk to me.
I believe that a mod has already contacted you once
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
is a top fuel dragster gonna use factory spark plug wires ? o My
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You must give a "whit" since you are spreading your opinion all over the place. If you didn't care, you'd make your opinion statement and move on. But you are hell bent on telling everyone that doesn't believe your opinion they are wrong.
It's called being a bully.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
And yet you just did.
As for your opinion, it isn't the opinion I am trying to silence but the fact that you have this insatiable desire to ram your opinion down everyone else's throat instead of stating it and moving along. Instead you keep regurgitating that your "bias controlled" testing is the only valid method of testing. And yet you can't post a single valid result to prove your opinions that you insist are better than everyone elses.
I got it. I understand that you disagree. Why not let it go? I'm just responding to people who post attacks. Stop attacking, I'll stop posting mhy responses. -
EndersShadow wrote: »
Sorry I must have missed it. -
Why don't you just ignore and move on to another subject? Except I sense you have a singular purpose here and that is to troll about bias testing. Do you have anything else to offer or are you JUST here to indoctrinate all of us on this singular subject?
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
I see it exactly the opposite way. I make a post innocently. I am then deluged by bullies like you insulting me and I respond to the posts the best I can. It is fine to disagree with me and post the reasons for your disagreement. it is ridiculous and childish to behave the way you and others have behaved. The only reason I am still here is the bullying leveled at me. I don't stand down to bullies. -
Yeah, right "innocently making a post". You came here with an agenda and you are getting push back and now playing the victim.
Typical internet troll behavior.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
fmw
I sent you a PM yesterday, did you receive it?
Ken -
KennethSwauger wrote: »fmw
I sent you a PM yesterday, did you receive it?
Ken
I didn't know I had but I looked for the PM control and found your post. You misunderstood what I said about being asked to return. That was an email from a forum member asking me to stay after I had decided to quit. Nobody sent me here in the first place.
My agenda, simple as it is, is to provide alternative information for newcomers to audio. If you look at my posts objectively you will see that I posted and was immediately beset by rudeness and insults. I responded to those posts the best I could and succeeding posts which were rude and insulting for the most part as well.
I have responded to almost all the posts made to me or about me. All the responses have done is generate a whole new slew of posts. Obviously the audiophile group doesn't care for my opinion any more than I care about theirs. But I do offer an alternative for those who have not decided to embark on the subjective audiophile journey. I followed that journey myself for over 40 years. Oddly enough I have a whole lot of experience in home audio and some experiences that none of the posters here have.
If you want me to leave, just say so and I will leave. I haven't left at the request of the bullies because I don't stand down to bullies. Tell me to go away and I will. -
Is it possible for you to discuss other audio related things? There is a lot about this hobby that is also worth talking about as well as 100's of other threads to discuss.
I do fear you were here for a singular reason, if that's the case then you have contributed all you need to and perhaps it is time for you to move along.
Why not share your other 40 years of experiences, especially the one's none of us have experience before? Why hang your hat so emphatically on a narrow, singular subject matter?
You see, your posts, both with passive/aggressive tones, and now the surrender "white flag" speech, and how your innocent and only trying to educate newbies, is old hat and been seen many times before.
It's a formula, and you are following it like a set of instructions.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
May I pose a question? Why is this guy not on everyone's bozo list yet? Better yet, why is he not banned???The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Yeah, right "innocently making a post". You came here with an agenda and you are getting push back and now playing the victim.
Typical internet troll behavior.
H9
I couldn't have said it better myself, thank you!
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Is it possible for you to discuss other audio related things? There is a lot about this hobby that is also worth talking about as well as 100's of other threads to discuss.
I do fear you were here for a singular reason, if that's the case then you have contributed all you need to and perhaps it is time for you to move along.
Why not share your other 40 years of experiences, especially the one's none of us have experience before? Why hang your hat so emphatically on a narrow, singular subject matter?
You see, your posts, both with passive/aggressive tones, and now the surrender "white flag" speech, and how your innocent and only trying to educate newbies, is old hat and been seen many times before.
It's a formula, and you are following it like a set of instructions.
H9
Thanks, I didn't know that. I've made posts elsewhere on the site but you probably don't visit those threads. Why do you keep challenging me to keep posting in this thread? Why not just drop it? You are as bad as a modern university. You have no tolerance at all for dissenting information. I'll leave as soon as the site asks me to, not because you ask me to. -
As an FYI, since it appears you do not know this, 'digital' audio cables do not carry digital information. They carry an analog signal that represents a digital signal. The receiver takes the analog signal, and then creates a digital signal. Depending on how degraded the analog signal is by the cable, it is possible to introduce jitter into the newly created digital bit stream. Thus 'digital' cables can affect the sound of the audio.
We are still waiting for links to your testing so we can evaluate the tests, methods, and results.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Why not just drop it? You are as bad as a modern university. You have no tolerance at all for dissenting information. I'll leave as soon as the site asks me to, not because you ask me to.
I could ask you the same thing, but I'm sure your ego won't let you drop it. When I said "move along", I wasn't asking you to leave (apparently other places have asked since you jumped to that conclusion) I was simply asking you to move on to another subject or experience as you've stated your opinions about this one quite emphatically. I'd love to hear about the audio experiences you've had that the rest of us haven't. I've only been in/around/practicing this hobby for 37 years, so I'm anxious to hear about your exclusive experience that the rest of us have never experienced.
I have seen your other posts, that's good you're branching out. Eventually you might get some credibility back. It will be essential to stroke that ego of yours.
Anyway I fear I now have become a broken record so I am moving on.
Cheers
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul! -
I'd love to hear about the audio experiences you've had that the rest of us haven't. I've only been in/around/practicing this hobby for 37 years, so I'm anxious to hear about your exclusive experience that the rest of us have never experienced.
The experiences not shared by others on the forum are those of bias controlled testing. Every time I mention it the roof comes down on my head. So it is obvious to me that dissenting information is not welcome here. But I will continue to post what I know unless the site asks me to leave.
I could ask you the same thing, but I'm sure your ego won't let you drop it. When I said "move along", I wasn't asking you to leave (apparently other places have asked since you jumped to that conclusion) I was simply asking you to move on to another subject or experience as you've stated your opinions about this one quite emphatically. I'd love to hear about the audio experiences you've had that the rest of us haven't. I've only been in/around/practicing this hobby for 37 years, so I'm anxious to hear about your exclusive experience that the rest of us have never experienced.
I have seen your other posts, that's good you're branching out. Eventually you might get some credibility back. It will be essential to stroke that ego of yours.
Anyway I fear I now have become a broken record so I am moving on.
Cheers
H9
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We have over 16 years of education already on the forum from all walks of life and levels in audio. If someone thinks biases have not been covered in over 16 years then they are too lazy to look up the threads.
Nothing being said is new to the forum, matter of fact it's rather old hat. Some like to hold on to those old hats though.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
fmw wrote:I don't understand how amps can match speakers so I can't comment on that.
Truly amazing that someone who claims to have been into audio for 40 years has no idea about matching amps and speakers. In fact, your comment makes it appear that you have been into audio for 10 seconds.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thanks, I didn't know that. I've made posts elsewhere on the site but you probably don't visit those threads. Why do you keep challenging me to keep posting in this thread? Why not just drop it? You are as bad as a modern university. You have no tolerance at all for dissenting information. I'll leave as soon as the site asks me to, not because you ask me to.
OMG! Our Universities and colleges are the "envy" of the world. Most first rate minds come "here" to study! And yet, a small number of right wing "nut jobs" keep making this same retort! Fair and balanced, right!
Find a better University system in another country, why don't you? Give it a rest, No Agenda Dude!Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
The experiences not shared by others on the forum are those of bias controlled testing. Every time I mention it the roof comes down on my head. the rest of us have never experienced.
You seem to believe that blind/double blind testing is the only form of bias controlled testing. There are many types of bias controlled tests specified for different types of sensory stimuli and different types of test subjects. The peer-reviewed sensory science literature has much credible information for those with an honest interest in the subject.
Descriptive testing is a far more powerful method of bias control than simple discrimination tests, particularly for complex sensory stimuli like a stereophonic sound field.
You need to do a more in-depth study of what kind of bias control testing is appropriate for a specific audio scenario, then come back and speak from knowledge, rather than limited experience and shallow understanding.
You assumed that you are the only one here with experience in bias controlled experiments. Why would you say such a thing and you have no knowledge of the academic and professional backgrounds of the members? In my case, I did many years of bias controlled experiments on sound quality of telephone equipment as a manufacturing and research and development engineer for AT&T and Bell Laboratories.
The simple-minded "one kind of test fits all audio" mindset is indicative of a crippling lack of intellectual curiosity and honesty. It is also indicative of the most shallow understanding of basic scientific audio concepts. The fact that you think that a "digital" cable cannot make an audible difference because "it is only transmitting 1s and 0s" is a common misunderstanding. There is no such thing as a binary digital signal. Such a signal only exists as a theoretical abstract concept. There is no method known to science that will generate a signal that can instantaneously switch between only two discrete amplitudes (high and low value). What is transmitted in digital cables is an analog approximation of a digital signal. The signal ramps up to a true maximum value (maximum overshoot) then settles down into a relatively flat, but rippled, nominal maximum value, then ramps down to true minimum value (maximum undershoot), then settles up into a relatively flat, but rippled, nominal minimum value, then the process repeats for respective "high" and "low" pulses. In this regard, a "digital" signal is actually a "pseudo-digital" signal that has the same infinitely-varying amplitude characteristics of an analog signal.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Thanks but my experiences say otherwise.
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As an FYI, since it appears you do not know this, 'digital' audio cables do not carry digital information. They carry an analog signal that represents a digital signal. The receiver takes the analog signal, and then creates a digital signal. Depending on how degraded the analog signal is by the cable, it is possible to introduce jitter into the newly created digital bit stream. Thus 'digital' cables can affect the sound of the audio.
We are still waiting for links to your testing so we can evaluate the tests, methods, and results.
Yes, we call it pulse code modulation. I was simply trying to make post simpler. I assume this group would understand that a digital cable transmits PCM. You will be waiting a long time for links that do not exist.
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