The world is laughing at US

steveinaz · September 2015

DSkip wrote: »

Memorization of a table has no real benefit. I learned memorization, but the time that was spent to memorize that could have benefited way more students by teaching them how to think. I know all factors from 1x1 to 12x12, but I never use it. Heck, even 11x12 I chunk sometimes - 10x12 = 120, then add 12. This type of thinking is more important because it will do much greater good when you get to something like 31x12. 31x12 mentally is 30x12, add a zero to it, then add 12 to that number. So, 372. Memorization did not help me a bit in that.

If you have the tools to do anything, the simple problems are still simple, while the complex ones just get easier.

The examples you give above are perfectly applicable and sound. "Make 10 from 8+5" isn't.

Moose68Bash · September 2015

The world is not just laughing at us, it is now kicking sand in our face (e.g., Putin's actions in Syria today) and running to form new alliances that will provide the protection they used to look to the US to provide.

My friends, "The times, they are a changing!"

And, it ain't good for our children and grandchildren.

scubalab · September 2015

steveinaz wrote: »

The examples you give above are perfectly applicable and sound. "Make 10 from 8+5" isn't.

Steve, the question was worded poorly... agreed, but the concept is nothing new. Just a new way of getting children to understand it. I taught myself how to do addition/subtraction using this same principle over 35 years ago. It works. And as Skip shows in his post on factors, it's how many with a math background do things in their heads. We can't knock the method for one poorly worded question!

I'm sure with a little digging, we could find poorly written individual questions from schools in EVERY country that would make the world laugh!

This has been a great debate with many great posts that I've enjoyed reading (and learned a lot along the way!)

Gatecrasher · September 2015

It wasn't a bad question from the teacher. Just like a lot of things that are manipulated for political gain, the entire question was taken out of context. The test question involved the use of "counters" by 2nd graders learning the decimal system.

I think if these pundits would have shown the problem as it was presented and explained the logic behind it that most intelligent people would understand and approve of these highly-innovative teaching techniques. Do these people really think that teachers are that dumb? They are professionals and are for the most part care a lot about the job they are doing. They are using everything at their disposal to help kids learn and not just go through the motions.

Memorization is never a good teaching technique. Just look at any class you took that required extensive memorization. When it came time to move to the next level it was more difficult since you really were just regurgitating rather than fully understanding the material from the prerequisite class. Not to mention how boring the class was when all you do is memorize meaningless facts and figures. Also later on in life material from these type classes is largely forgotten.

Then remember classes where you didn't simply memorize the material but truly understood what was being taught. It's a lot more fun for the students and inspired you to want to know more. At least that's the way it is for most students. I know I had "favorite" classes where I excelled and I had classes I really hated that were more of a struggle and studying for them was more like memorization and cramming for tests than being able to confidently walk into the class and ace it.

Everyone had classes they liked more than others and excelled in them as compared to those they disliked. This is an attempt to not only help 2nd graders to better understand the material they are being taught but to also make them want to learn more. When you are just memorizing stuff, you really aren't looking forward to learning more of it as much as when you fully understand it and can truly master it. Math has always been a subject that a lot of students struggle in.

I think most intelligent people who understand the concept as it was meant to be represented realize that this is a pretty-good teaching technique. Americans have demanded that we raise the bar in education.

Some parents think they are smarter than the teachers when it comes to education. They are largely the same ones who are easily duped by misrepresentations like this was. This only proves that the teachers are smarter and know what they are doing.

steveinaz · September 2015

I'm pretty sure your thought is "intelligent people would agree with me...." That's an old, tired tactic. My sister is a teacher, my daughter-in-law is a teacher, my sister-in-law is a teacher---please don't mis-represent what you have no clue about.

deronb1 · September 2015

I spent over $ 200.00 on supplies this year.

Gatecrasher · September 2015

steveinaz wrote: »

I'm pretty sure your thought is "intelligent people would agree with me...." That's an old, tired tactic. My sister is a teacher, my daughter-in-law is a teacher, my sister-in-law is a teacher---please don't mis-represent what you have no clue about.

If you are having trouble comprehending the math problem as it was really meant to be presented to the 7 year old 2nd grade students, I think you may need a refresher yourself.

Gatecrasher · September 2015

The question is only bad if you are not considering the setting it was given in. The kids have these "counters" they are supposed to be using. Physical poker chip like things. They are given a pile of 8 white poker chips and a pile of 5 white poker chips which represent units of 1 and are asked how to make a red chip from the two piles.

The answer is to take two white poker chips from the pile of 5 and add them to the pile of 8 white poker chips. Then they have ten and can exchange them for a red one which represent units of 10. Then they still have three white ones left over which gives them 1 red chip and three white chips (which is 13). 13 is the answer to the math question. 10 is just the first step to getting there.

Remember, these are 7 year-olds who have mastered counting from 1 to 10 and have a pretty-good grasp of that but usually struggle when going beyond that point. Being able to visualize things with the counters helps them to better understand.

If kids don't understand math at an early age, they tend to lose interest in it and it becomes their least favorite subject. The goal is to help them understand earlier and get more kids interested in math and science. If they truly understand what they are learning, the kids get into it and are more-likely to do better later on. That's the entire purpose of using visual aids in teaching and it is a proven technique that has been used for centuries.

tonyb · September 2015

Gatecrasher wrote: »

steveinaz wrote: »

I'm pretty sure your thought is "intelligent people would agree with me...." That's an old, tired tactic. My sister is a teacher, my daughter-in-law is a teacher, my sister-in-law is a teacher---please don't mis-represent what you have no clue about.

If you are having trouble comprehending the math problem as it was really meant to be presented to the 7 year old 2nd grade students, I think you may need a refresher yourself.

Doubt that....because if grown adults can't comprehend a simple question as presented, 2nd graders aren't exactly going to be hip to it either.

This isn't a right or left issue, public schools have been on the down turn under either party. This is a fix it with common sense issue and take out the agendas and corrupted bodies controlling it.

Again I say, in order to fix a problem, you first have to realize there is one and identify it. Solutions become obvious if you can manage to exclude the other junk that gets in the way.

Think like a car mechanic, you can temporarily fix a symptom, doesn't mean the core issue is going to be fixed though. However some are happy driving a car with a loose front end, hole in the muffler, to them there is no problem thus nothing needs to be fixed.

tonyb · September 2015

That doesn't represent an answer of 13 Skip. 8+5 was the original question wasn't it ? Don't know how much more simple you can make that question.

Gatecrasher · September 2015

tonyb wrote: »

That doesn't represent an answer of 13 Skip. 8+5 was the original question wasn't it ? Don't know how much more simple you can make that question.

Then you just flunked 2nd grade math.

lol

steveinaz · September 2015

When we are taught to speak our first words, our parents didn't start with definitions. They started with simple repetition and association. We later learned the definitions of more complex words. The key there being "later." Many times, though maybe not intuitive, it's important to create a basis first, and then get a deeper understanding of a concept AFTER the basics are mastered.

I know in this new, hyper-active society there's always calls for something "new" when the existing thing was working just fine. I call it generation Version 1.xxxxxxxxx. It's newer, so it must be better, right? Not always. I like the conceptual side for advanced classes, I don't like it at all in an elementary level environment. It makes things confusing for some, absolutely confusing for Mom & Dad when trying to help at home.

This stuff reminds me of the teaching of phonetics (sp?) that was all the rage 20 years ago. English (American) varies so much in its pronounciations, hard fast rules don't always apply like in other languages. It had my kids totally confused with spelling words. I told them many words are just going to have to be memorized, and you can't count on phonetics because of the huge variance in our language.

nooshinjohn · September 2015

Gatecrasher wrote: »

steveinaz wrote: »

I'm pretty sure your thought is "intelligent people would agree with me...." That's an old, tired tactic. My sister is a teacher, my daughter-in-law is a teacher, my sister-in-law is a teacher---please don't mis-represent what you have no clue about.

If you are having trouble comprehending the math problem as it was really meant to be presented to the 7 year old 2nd grade students, I think you may need a refresher yourself.

You need to change your forum name to "strawman"
Because you sure argue like one...

tonyb · September 2015

F1nut wrote: »

Common core math......

"Tell how to make 10 when adding 8+5."

The student wrote, “You cannot make 10 with 8 + 5,” to which the teacher apparently replied in blue ink, “Yes you can. Take 2 from 5 and add it to 8 (8+2=10) Then add 3.”

I'm at a loss for words.......

I stand corrected, the question as stated was how to make 10 from 8+5. This is very confusing to a kid who understands the answer of 8+5 as 13. 10 is only a number in the process to get there, not a final outcome.

So if the purpose of the question is to confuse yougsters, bravo, they succeeded. If the purpose was to get what 8+5 equals, they failed big time.

Skip, your right...a very poorly worded question.

As a side note to this math thing, just wanted to say it's been 40+ years since I've been out of school and yet another day has gone by that I didn't use Algebra.

steveinaz · September 2015

Gatecrasher wrote: »

If you are having trouble comprehending the math problem as it was really meant to be presented to the 7 year old 2nd grade students, I think you may need a refresher yourself.

Actually I'm doing pretty well, especially for a guy without a degree. I know that has to gnaw at your very soul, and it won't make sense to you in a common core kind of way--but some of us understand the material the first time around, without the need for college. Cheap-shot away, I have real thick skin.

ken brydson · September 2015

tonyb wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Common core math......

"Tell how to make 10 when adding 8+5."

The student wrote, “You cannot make 10 with 8 + 5,” to which the teacher apparently replied in blue ink, “Yes you can. Take 2 from 5 and add it to 8 (8+2=10) Then add 3.”

I'm at a loss for words.......

As a side note to this math thing, just wanted to say it's been 40+ years since I've been out of school and yet another day has gone by that I didn't use Algebra.

The had algebra back then?

tonyb · September 2015

DSkip wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

That doesn't represent an answer of 13 Skip. 8+5 was the original question wasn't it ? Don't know how much more simple you can make that question.

That's the point tony. The objective was not clearly represented by the original question. If its a poor question, you can't possibly understand the objective. The original was a horrid example and is inexcusable and should not be used as a crutch to stand on for those with opposing views of what is being taught.

I'd like to agree with you Skip, but unfortunately too many examples exist to brush it off as an oddball example. I get teaching processes, but that's putting the cart before the horse at elementary levels.

steveinaz · September 2015

ken brydson wrote: »

The had algebra back then?

What's this "algebra" you speak of? LOL

tonyb · September 2015

ken brydson wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Common core math......

"Tell how to make 10 when adding 8+5."

The student wrote, “You cannot make 10 with 8 + 5,” to which the teacher apparently replied in blue ink, “Yes you can. Take 2 from 5 and add it to 8 (8+2=10) Then add 3.”

I'm at a loss for words.......

As a side note to this math thing, just wanted to say it's been 40+ years since I've been out of school and yet another day has gone by that I didn't use Algebra.

The had algebra back then?

LOL.....Ya know bro....I like you, but if we both are ever getting chased by Zombies, I'm trippin' your a$$.

steveinaz · September 2015

Skip, I get exactly where Tony is coming from. There seems to be a trend in this country where instead of fixing what's broke (low graduation rates) we think introducing something new will help. Sometimes it does, but more often than not it's not the method, it's how it is being delivered, verified, and tested. Nobody wants to deal with the real problems (discipline, grading, strict standards) so they look for a "magic bullet" that gets them off the hook for awhile, or at least until they retire.

Ask yourself this; how did this country do so well for so many years with the old standards? And now, all of a sudden, we need a new method? I don't buy it for a second. These supplemental learning tools are great for more advanced students wanting a concept-view of math, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the methods we had.

I was fortunate that the public school I attended (1976-1980) had pretty strict standards (state of Missouri). Not only did you need your 24 credits, but also were required to pass the following to graduate:

Advanced composition (which required comp I first)
American Literature
U.S. Constitution

tonyb · September 2015

Exactly Steve, well said.

btw....your thick skin is because you shake and bake out in the Arizona sun all day like the lizards. Get a pool and soften up. lol

Gatecrasher · September 2015

You guys simply aren't understanding the point of the exercise.

How do you guys know that 8+5=13?

If you use the type of reasoning that makes math easier to comprehend you are doing exactly what this exercise is designed to promote in children. You are visualizing the number eight and taking two from the five to make ten and then adding the left over three. The decimal system works in units of ten. That's what "decimal" means.

If you just teach 7 year-old kids that they are supposed to automatically know 8+5=13 without really understanding how to get there without reasoning and just pure memorization they really aren't learning properly.

Remember, these are kids that just learned how to count to ten. Sure some are ahead of others but not all.

Let's look at another addition problem. 17+13=?

Even as an adult you know that 7+3=10. Then you have 10+10 to add to that giving you 30. You just don't automatically know that those two numbers equal 30. You are using your understanding of the decimal system to arrive at the answer.

How about 73+19=?

Again, an adult will know that 9+3=12. That leaves 70+10=80 (which is a lot easier to visualize), plus 12. 12= 10+2

So the answer is 80+10+2 which equals 92.

See how it works? That is a lot easier for kids to visualize than 73-19=92 and that is the entire point of the exercise. After learning how to use "counters" that represent the decimal system a 7 year old can begin to answer just about any addition problem without any memorization. All they need to know is how to count from 1 to 10 and how the decimal system works and then they have it. We kind of take this type of reasoning for granted but most 7 year olds don't.

This test question was given to 7 year-olds after they had been using counters. For the test they had to do it in their heads though without them. That's why the teacher asked them how do they get to ten first basically making them use the same concept without the physical objects.

tonyb · September 2015

I come from the camp of, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I saw nothing broke with the old systems processes. Lots of other things within the system are broke, but never get fixed or at least attempted to. That's why CC was such a shock to most because it tries to address a problem that wasn't there to begin with. Another created crisis with an already created answer.

When you start making segments of a system "untouchable", the system as a whole will never operate efficiently or at it's best. Like setting up an audio system for better sound but your not allowed to change settings, pre-amps or cables. Your limited to how well the system works by claiming certain things untouchable.

ken brydson · September 2015

tonyb wrote: »

ken brydson wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Common core math......

"Tell how to make 10 when adding 8+5."

The student wrote, “You cannot make 10 with 8 + 5,” to which the teacher apparently replied in blue ink, “Yes you can. Take 2 from 5 and add it to 8 (8+2=10) Then add 3.”

I'm at a loss for words.......

As a side note to this math thing, just wanted to say it's been 40+ years since I've been out of school and yet another day has gone by that I didn't use Algebra.

The had algebra back then?

LOL.....Ya know bro....I like you, but if we both are ever getting chased by Zombies, I'm trippin' your a$$.

Just busting your b's, I'm not far behind you. I remember chiselling my math homework on a cave wa ..

tonyb · September 2015

Gate, we get the process, and using decimals was certainly a part of the old system as well. Nobody saw a reason to change it is all we are saying.

By wording the question as "How do you get....", one assumes that "GET" is equal to the answer, not part of the answer. So to GET 10....from 8+5, is not possible.....and confusing to elementary kids.

Moose68Bash · September 2015

Gatecrasher wrote: »

See how it works? That is a lot easier for kids to visualize than 73-19=92 and that is the entire point of the exercise.

@gatecrasher,

Actually, I find it impossible to visualize how "73-19=92."

I had to check it with a calculator, but as I suspected, 73-19=54.

Oh, by the way, I know 8+5=13 because my mother told me so, and nobody has ever shown me that this result is wrong.

But, if you can, have at it!

PS: While you're at it, would you mind showing me how to do it hexadec?

sucks2beme · September 2015

The real issue is being danced around here.
We have lowered our expectations and the students have lived up to it.
For years we as a society have made fun of smart kids. The football
players are cool. How do you expect kids to want to be the outcasts?
Japan stresses good grades. AND THEY GET SMART KIDS.
We stress sports. AND WE GET ATHLETES.
You get an A+ when the rest of the class barely passes, and see how that
plays out at recess. Normally that means a couple of new bruises.

Msabot1 · September 2015

Think I was in 4th or 5th grade when introduced to negative numbers...also basic formula manipulation..they called it modern math...nothing modern about any of that..basic algebraic laws...to get 10 out of 8+5..add-3..

scubalab · September 2015

I think this thread has jumped the shark...

Going back to the OP - the question, the way it was worded, looks dumb, and yes, would be the source of a LOT of laughter.

It's been entertaining reading through the debates and the multitude of tangent debates. But I think the point some are trying to make (myself included) is that this system (of breaking numbers into ones, tens, hundreds, etc.) works! It makes addition/subtraction of higher numbers easier to comprehend and compute quantitatively. Teaching kids to memorize addition and multiplication tables for 1-12 is fine but it does not, I repeat does NOT teach quantitative comprehension of numbers. It's memorization, simple as that!! There's nothing wrong with this, however, it's refreshing to see that instead of forcing only memorization, there are some rather innovative ways being taught to understand how the numbers work.

Yes, that question was comical, worded horribly, and the response of the child was great. BUT, is there honestly a single person on this forum, participating in this thread who actually sat through that teacher's curriculum, saw the rest of the questions, or knows for a fact what was or was not being taught in this particular class? Can anyone say for certain whether or not the question, answer, and teacher's response is even genuine or fabricated for effect? (I know I believe everything I find on the interweb...) It's been said countless times that the question (taken out of context) is worded poorly. Perhaps the word "Get" could have been replaced with "Make"... Perhaps instead of saying "8+5" it could have said "8 and 5". Maybe it was explained better earlier in the class and/or on the quiz or homework. Who knows? Maybe the question could have said, "When adding 8 and 5, how would/could you first make 10?"

Point is, you can manipulate anything when taken out of context. Again, I'm not saying the question was presented in even a remotely good way. But to trash a system that is logical, teaches how to quantitatively compute (as opposed to relying on memorization), and helps in the long run based on one cr@ppy, out of context question, is not fair.

Gatecrasher · September 2015

Moose68Bash wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

See how it works? That is a lot easier for kids to visualize than 73-19=92 and that is the entire point of the exercise.

@gatecrasher,

Actually, I find it impossible to visualize how "73-19=92."

I had to check it with a calculator, but as I suspected, 73-19=54.

Oh, by the way, I know 8+5=13 because my mother told me so, and nobody has ever shown me that this result is wrong.

But, if you can, have at it!

PS: While you're at it, would you mind showing me how to do it hexadec?

That was a typo that I noticed as soon as it was posted but the forum doesn't allow me to edit the error.

But you knew that.

Once again you're grasping for anything you can think of to keep from admitting you've fallen for this anti-common core BS. Either that or you support dishonesty as long as it suits your agenda. You might want to try weaning yourself off the Fox News. It's been known to fry your brain.

We keep hearing stuff from some on here like, "Why change when the old way worked?"

Well it wasn't working obviously. Where have you been? That's why the test scores were horrible in math for American kids and the rest of the world was kicking our butts. Instead taking the easy way out and totally deserting the public school system like some have chosen do though, teachers have been tasked with finding ways to help the kids get a better grasp of mathematics.

There are plenty of kids out there who have the potential to excel in other math/science-related areas but they don't because they were turned-off by the way math had been traditionally taught in schools. Teachers aren't taking the easy way out and just continuing to see other nations outperform Americans. They are doing something about it. This stuff should not be partisan at all. It is in the best interest of our future, but if some on here would rather not see any change or progress of any kind (they have a word for that). You really aren't doing anyone any favors though and it's obvious that you don't have any answers yourselves. It seems to be the pattern from the right on a lot of issues. All criticism with no solutions of their own.

This is why I never wanted to be a teacher. They get no respect from some people who think they know better but are truly clueless when it comes to the reality of the situation. It's a thankless job that pay crap wages for the amount of education required and the amount of BS they are forced to take from some parents. They can no longer discipline the kids without being sued by the spoiled brat's parents and if the kids fails a subject the teachers are automatically blamed for the kids performance.

I have respect for teachers though because I have lived with a bunch of them and know how hard they really do work and how much they really do care about the kids. A lot more than the people who are trying tear down the public school system and common core do.

The world is laughing at US

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