The world is laughing at US

Moose68Bash

@DSkip,

You are wise to just layoff this discussion, which is, to quote Faulkner, like "an endless steeplechase from everywhere to nowhere."

deronb1

xcapri79 wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

xcapri79 wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

I can't even argue these points because there is no logic to it. US deficit and math? No, math has nothing to do with that.

You illustrate my point perfectly. You and many others simply do not understand the mathematical problem of compounding interest and increasing debt and just pass it off. Mathematics will eventually create a budget crisis in this country and so few see it.

You want a step in the right direction? Address the culture.

That is exactly what I did, we have cultural and moral illiteracy. The presentation I linked to provided some excellent answers.

I just.... can't.

Agreed. You simply can't understand the mathematical problem of our 18 trillion dollar plus national debt and our even worse unfunded liabilities of over 100 trillion dollars for Medicare and Social Security. This amounts to over 1 million dollars of debt per taxpayer.

Mathematics will eventually create a budget crisis in this country which all the common core "geniuses" seem oblivious to. It wouldn't be so bad if the generation that created this problem lived with their problem. What makes this so bad is that this is the legacy that the statist geniuses will pass onto future generations. They won't be laughing, they will be crying.

It has nothing to do with........nevermind.

maximillian

Gatecrasher wrote: »

In 2006 the support for Common Core was almost universal. Then after January 20, 2009 a certain minority of the population was all of a sudden against it (and just about everything else).

Who was that? Was it the Judean People's Front or the Judean Popular People's Front?

BlueFox

DSkip wrote: »

xcapri79 wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

I can't even argue these points because there is no logic to it. US deficit and math? No, math has nothing to do with that.

You illustrate my point perfectly. You and many others simply do not understand the mathematical problem of compounding interest and increasing debt and just pass it off. Mathematics will eventually create a budget crisis in this country and so few see it.

You want a step in the right direction? Address the culture.

That is exactly what I did, we have cultural and moral illiteracy. The presentation I linked to provided some excellent answers.

I just.... can't.

LOL. He is the same guy who argues Inglorious B a s t e r d s is a recruitment film for the WW II German political party (stupid Vanilla censorship).

BlueFox

xcapri79 wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

LOL. He is the same guy who argues Inglorious B a s t e r d s is a recruitment film for the WW II German political party (stupid Vanilla censorship).

Perhaps you are referring to someone else, but that certainly wasn't me. You should get your facts straight. That movie had a completely different message that you obviously missed.

I did say that it was "a great Al Qaeda recruitment movie" and "is a disgrace to the American and Allied soldiers who bravely and heroically fought and fight for our freedom." It is typical Hollywood.

Yes, you are probably right. I remembered it was something stupid. My apologies for the error.

ken brydson

maximillian wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

In 2006 the support for Common Core was almost universal. Then after January 20, 2009 a certain minority of the population was all of a sudden against it (and just about everything else).

Who was that? Was it the Judean People's Front or the Judean Popular People's Front?

I thought it was the popular front ...

Moose68Bash

@KennethSwauger,

Ken, I have engaged in innumerable political discussions dating back to the "rusty old days" of the Vietnam era, but I have yet to have engaged in one that is more inane than the above. IMHO

Please put this poor discussion out of its misery by closing it down.

PLEASE.

kevhed72

I second that motion....

BlueFox

Or, one could not read it. I think the thread is pointing out the clear dichotomy between education philosophies, and the supporters of each. Readers can make their own determination as to who is cogent, and who is disconnected.

maximillian

Gatecrasher wrote: »

The main goal of Common Core is to raise the bar on American education and is a proven success. The numbers don't lie. Common Core is based on scientific research and proven teaching techniques. The opposition to Common Core is based on myths and misinformation.

In 2006 the support for Common Core was almost universal. Then after January 20, 2009 a certain minority of the population was all of a sudden against it (and just about everything else).

Funny how that works isn't it? That's why the world is laughing at us.

Hopefully we can continue a non-political, non-religious based discussion. Frankly, I am not in the education system so do not have first hand experience. So I have been reading on it, posted a few interesting articles, and generally trying to educate myself on the issue.

So here's the issue, you, and others have said that common core is "proven" and the numbers "don't lie" in that it is a success. So educators out there, what should the reaction be when you read about New York State (an early adopter of common core) reports the following:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/08/13/n-y-common-core-test-scores-flop-yet-again/

And the 20% opting out would have made a only small difference in the overall score (according to the article). And the governor, although still a supporter, says that NYS's implementation is flawed:

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/statement-governor-andrew-m-cuomo-common-core-standards

And here's an article on Kentucky's performance after 3 years that says that their performance isn't necessarily better (too early to tell):

http://archive.cincinnati.com/article/20140105/NEWS0102/301050035/3-years-later-Common-Core-working-Kentucky-

Granted the article is 1.5 years old so maybe they have dramatically improved over that time. Can't find another article though.

There's more out there. Yes, lots from the opposition, and in this post I tried to stay away from unknown sources, opinion columns, or news sources that have a perceived "reputation" of bias.

There's also positive articles such as this one:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/02/teachers-survey-common-core/16601335/

But if you read the article it talks about teacher's perception of being "ready" to teach. It does not really talk about proficiency results.

So instead of making generic "it's working" statements, can you link to good data sources proving so?

tonyb

Far be it from me to defend X, but he does have a valid point even though it has little to do with education.

Maybe it's a "trust" factor in anything government touches. After all, they never lie about anything and are as transparent as a brick. Nobody will even agree on the reasons CC is failing or succeeding, but we do know it's a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

Only in this backwards world do we create solutions then look for problems to fit it. Government has to offer a Public education system, but like everything they get too involved in, they screw it all up.

Standards are needed as a measuring stick of knowledge, what students learn at any given point in the education process. How you get there is irrelevant, as long as you get there. In this supposedly inclusionary world we supposedly teach and promote, why is it then public schools has become exclusionary ? You exclude teacher input, parents, home schooling, charters....or anyone with ideas outside the narrative supported by government.

That's not problem solving, that's dictatorship. That's forcing indoctrination onto those who you've taken options away from. Basically a closed system, absent of free thinking, absent of implementing various ideas to achieve results to set standards.

More than one way to skin a cat as they say, more than one way to achieve goals, even though the same goals are set nation wide. Businesses do it, you do it in your personal lives, everyone differs in the processes while striving for the same goals.
How would business look if everyone did things exactly the same ? How would your life look if everyone acted and lived the same ?

It's not standards we are arguing here, it's the process to get there....mind you without pinpointing the problems in the previous processes. It simply doesn't make sense. It doesn't register that we can't address any problems before changing it all up. It doesn't register in my mind that to achieve results, we bring in the very best at what they do, not the best at failures. We bring in fresh ideas, not ones from decades ago. We keep what works, throw out what doesn't, and move forward taking in any ideas that promotes a path for success.

However in a closed system, that's impossible to do. In a system run by special interests, also impossible to do. In a system run mainly by inefficient government bodies, again....hard to do.

Until someone with the balls to address the real problems comes along, address the real problems that face education and us as a nation, nothing changes and in fact may get worse.

maximillian

I agree with what you say Tony. There are bigger issues that play into student performance as DSkip mentioned also. Accountability through standardized testing is a good thing. Leveling that accountability across the nation is also a good thing. So the goals for common core as it started were fine. I said that other times earlier in this thread. Common core had wide bipartisan support when it started. However, the implementation has been less than optimal, and the criticism is warranted. My post just two replies up is to show that common core is not a final solution to solve the educational gap. We shouldn't be declaring "education accomplished".

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

I agree with what you say Tony. There are bigger issues that play into student performance as DSkip mentioned also. Accountability through standardized testing is a good thing. Leveling that accountability across the nation is also a good thing. So the goals for common core as it started were fine. I said that other times earlier in this thread. Common core had wide bipartisan support when it started. However, the implementation has been less than optimal, and the criticism is warranted. My post just two replies up is to show that common core is not a final solution to solve the educational gap. We shouldn't be declaring "education accomplished".

I think that's the point pal, there is no "final solution". Yes, create standards to achieve, but then don't tie the hands that strive to achieve them by insisting one system to fit all, or insinuating all must learn at the same pace because we all know that isn't possible nor the best and only way to achieve results.

We live in a results oriented world. Business runs on it, your personal life runs on it, you even parent with results in mind. We all do or use different approaches to reach the standards we set for ourselves and our children, the common denominator is results though. Is it working ? If not, what do we change and how ? Where to get fresh ideas from ?

You can't expect nationwide results by holding everyone to one approach, one single way to achieve. Take CC out of the equation even, the system as it's setup is designed as a closed system.

Much like a monopoly, which when happens, whats the outcome ? Poor service, higher prices isn't it ? So why settle for a monopoly in our public education ?

tonyb

Skip,
I agree with your thoughts on creating analytical thinkers, but how about we use the same to construct a public school system that works. Wouldn't that be...logical ? If not, then what good is analytical thinking if it can't be put into practice ?

I asked before but got no responses......construct me a public school system from scratch. What would it look like ?

maximillian

tonyb wrote: »

I asked before but got no responses......construct me a public school system from scratch. What would it look like ?

That is a very difficult question that may not be easily answered on an audio forum. You need education experts (plural). Teachers themselves may or may not be qualified; it depends on their experience. Then you need to get through everyone's hidden agenda's and personal biases.

I didn't feel qualified to answer and thus didn't. Don't take that as me (and others) ignoring you. It's a great discussion, but a discussion that may not do the topic justice on this thread.

tonyb

I realize it's a very detailed and problematic question. I mean generally speaking, I'm not asking for specifics on pension plans, or even if the idea's are feasible. Just a basic wish list so to speak of what you think a Public school system should look like. This way, we can at least measure what is important to some or at least set forth priorities.

motorhead43026

All I know are my Kids and Grandkids are a lot smarter than I was at their respective ages, common core or not. Common core, I don't care for it because I don't get it. That in itself does not make it wrong or a bad thing.

D_M

Great discussion guys. This is going to come across as some socialist philosophy and some of you are going to tune out at the mere mention of the word. But we as a society have to view education as the greatest threat to our survival. The dollars spent on education have to be irrelevant, because we are investing in our great, great grandkids and in some cases other people's kids if we don't have any.

I'll take a stab at it Tony. I believe there are two pivotal educational points that serve as the fundamental building blocks, preschool and high school. In creating a system, we have to ask ourselves, what skill set should a high school student be armed with upon graduation. Answer that fundamental question and work backwards. As we all know, each grade builds upon the next, so we all know what educational information needs to be understood in order to be prepared for the next grade.

Yes, everyone does not learn at the same pace, so society has to be willing to spend the money on providing the extra help that other kids may need. That's why measuring education by dollars spent per child, should be thrown out the window. Countless studies have shown that the most formative time in our educational development is birth to age 5. We as a society have to provide access to educational child care for all, even in the most rural communities. Parents are put in a position of having to make a choice based on affordability, so the little ones stay with family members and run the risk of not being mentally stimulated in the early years.

College should be coupled to a societal commitment. Whether that commitment is military, teaching, government agencies, etc..... We can't decouple education from the social contract that we must have with each other. Until we accept the fact that other communities will use more resources than others, we will continue to struggle with our social problems.

kevhed72

The post above hit the nail on the head. Regardless of where a child lives in this country, he or she should be guaranteed a world class education. We allow politics, teacher unions and poor parenting to get in the way too often. Why not simply benchmark from the top 5 performing European and Asian countries an educational approach. There are a fixed number of fundamental areas of study-math, science, history, social studies and English....and INCLUDE PE. I think, as a country, we allow all this other crap to get in the way of educationg our children. Fundamentally, its not that difficult. Test kids for results via frequent quizes and tests which cover a quarter, semester, etc. Kids can also receive extra credit for taking initiative and doing extra work. Teachers can be graded based on test scores and observations - my employer calls them service checks. Teachers receive a base salary plus can earn more based on test results and service check scores. Any additional compensation would be determined from an independent school administrator who would complete service checks or monitor standardized testing procedures. As far as children who require extra time or tutoring for whatever reason, their already exists several programs, such as a 509 plan, which allows for extra time or other accomodations. Again, not as complicated as some make it sound. No, I dont have all the answers, but when will we wake up as a nation.

tonyb

Good points gentlemen. So far I hear extending resources, community involvement, base salaries, choice, cherry picking ideas from others.

You do have to put a price tag on it, though it would be nice not to, but that's Utopia calling. If society is asked to foot the bill, then society should have a say so in how that money is spent. Society doesn't have unlimited amounts of money to throw at education, there has to be limits....and accountability....and that means parents too.

tonyb

xcapri79 wrote: »

D_M wrote: »

The dollars spent on education have to be irrelevant, because we are investing in our great, great grandkids and in some cases other people's kids if we don't have any.

tonyb wrote: »

Good points gentlemen. So far I hear extending resources, community involvement, base salaries, choice, cherry picking ideas from others.

You do have to put a price tag on it, though it would be nice not to, but that's Utopia calling. If society is asked to foot the bill, then society should have a say so in how that money is spent. Society doesn't have unlimited amounts of money to throw at education, there has to be limits....and accountability....and that means parents too.

Tony, for some, there is no price tag too high to achieve Utopia.
For some, we have endless amounts of other people's money, we can borrow endlessly from countries like China who have our best interests at heart, and we can just turn on the printing presses to print more money.
You've got to be progressive man. We investing in our great, great grandkids and other people's kids. What does it matter that we are also passing on to them hundreds of trillions of dollars of national debt and unfunded liabilities? Ohhhhh.

X,
While I can agree with a lot of that, that's moving too far into the political realm which will shut this thread down pronto. Send me a PM if you want to talk about that aspect.

For now though, I'm just scratching everyones brains for ideas in how to build a Public school system. I don't think many of us differ too much.

Moose68Bash

tonyb wrote: »

For now though, I'm just scratching everyones brains for ideas in how to build a Public school system. I don't think many of us differ too much.

I wish it were that simple.

Actually, the challenge is to deconstruct a deeply entrenched, failing public educational system while reconstructing a new, effective public educational system.

This is a political problem beyond any that this country has ever solved -- except, perhaps, the problem of slavery. This one will take a "war" that will likely be the equivalent of the Civil War.

And, IMHO, it makes no sense to talk about this topic without engaging the politics of the matter, and that is verboten.

tonyb

Moose68Bash wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

For now though, I'm just scratching everyones brains for ideas in how to build a Public school system. I don't think many of us differ too much.

I wish it were that simple.

Actually, the challenge is to deconstruct a deeply entrenched, failing public educational system while reconstructing a new, effective public educational system.

This is a political problem beyond any that this country has ever solved -- except, perhaps, the problem of slavery. This one will take a "war" that will likely be the equivalent of the Civil War.

And, IMHO, it makes no sense to talk about this topic without engaging the politics of the matter, and that is verboten.

I hear ya, politics has certainly been thrust into almost every aspect of our lives. We can leave it out though and just entertain common sense ideas. Having an idea is simple.....it's the implementing part that's the problem.

That shouldn't stop anyone though. Ideas, accepted or not, is what moves the world forward, for better or worse. I believe most would like to see the Public school systems evolve into something better, unless your happy with the way it is now then none of this matters much to you.

deronb1

I would like to see more vocational training offered in public schools. I dont know how many times ive been asked "when am i ever gonna use this?" from kids. And you know what, for the most part, they have a valid point. Not all kids are going to or should be going to college.

Try and engage them with opportunities at younger ages. Something somewhat tangible thay can work towards, with a clear vision of the monetary rewards they can achieve if they stay the course and put in an honest effort.

deronb1

xcapri79 wrote: »

What is the prime objective of public school education?
The answer to that question is what drives the current situation we are in.

Talking in circles is a prime example

Moose68Bash

tonyb wrote: »

That shouldn't stop anyone though. Ideas, accepted or not, is what moves the world forward, for better or worse. I believe most would like to see the Public school systems evolve into something better, unless your happy with the way it is now then none of this matters much to you.

OK, here's an idea:

Eliminate the monopoly of the public school system (K-12) over a period of a few years -- i.e., five or so.

Take all money being spent on public education and allocate it on a per-student basis to each child who is scheduled to matriculate into the K-12 system and allow parent(s) or guardian{s} of each child to specify where that child will attend school. That child's "allocation" of funds then goes to the chosen school to fund its educational program.

Level the playing field for all schools so that both government-managed, if they continue to exist, and privately-managed schools are competing for students on an equal footing. And, I mean level the playing field; do not let government tilt the field in favor of unions or whatever interest group has the most influence with the political class.

The free market will develop the best education system the world has ever seen, but it will take a decade or more. It won't be "pretty." In fact, it will be the "war" to which I alluded in my previous post.

Yes, this is a grossly oversimplified "prescription," but it is an idea that circumnavigates the biggest error that has brought us where we are today -- that is, a fallacious belief in the illusion that a small number* of brilliant intellectuals can design a system that is better than one resulting from the aggregated judgements over time of individuals in our society as expressed through their purchasing decisions, which are made in what they judge is their best interest -- not in what politicians have judged is in their best interests or -- worse -- in what politicians see is in the politicians' best interests.

Just my humble idea.

* I guess it is no longer a "small" number. In fact, it is a huge, unmanageable array of bureaucrats at all levels of governance.

Moose68Bash

@kevhed72,

You wrote:

"The post above hit the nail on the head. Regardless of where a child lives in this country, he or she should be guaranteed a world class education. We allow politics, teacher unions and poor parenting to get in the way too often."

The fatal flaw in your statement stems from the predicate "should be guaranteed a world class education."

Who decides what that means with respect to curricula and standards?

And, how can you "guarantee" that the outcome will be "a world class education?"

The most that government can offer is an environment that provides the best opportunity to gain a world-class education at public expense.

Then, the question becomes, how best to create and sustain that opportunity.

The way it is being done in the US today -- i.e., by a government owned and managed monopoly, is clearly not the best that can be offered. Individuals directly making decisions about where to spend public education funds is the best way to create and sustain an environment that offers the best opportunity for world-class education.

It is belief in the aggregated wisdom of our citizens, as expressed in their individual actions and decisions, that over a period of two centuries made the US the greatest country in the world, and it is movement away from that belief that has led us down "the primrose path of dalliance" that has resulted in our diminished position today.

deronb1

xcapri79 wrote: »

deronb1 wrote: »

xcapri79 wrote: »

What is the prime objective of public school education?
The answer to that question is what drives the current situation we are in.

Talking in circles is a prime example

It is because you don't like the answer.
There are some good ideas above, but they won't be implemented because they don't cater to the statist objectives of those who currently run the system.
FIrst, before any useful changes can be made, the key is to replace them at all levels (from the local level to the highest level) with competent people - people who are truly patriotic to the United States and who will strictly abide by the Constitution and the intents of its Framers.

The following is a useful read on the subject.
http://www.cato.org/blog/education-constitution

So the current people in charge of education at all levels are unpatriotic and in violation of our constitution? Seems like a broad generalization.

ken brydson

ken brydson wrote: »

maximillian wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

In 2006 the support for Common Core was almost universal. Then after January 20, 2009 a certain minority of the population was all of a sudden against it (and just about everything else).

Who was that? Was it the Judean People's Front or the Judean Popular People's Front?

I thought it was the popular front ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

deronb1

xcapri79 wrote: »

Now you starting are starting getting it. There are many.
For the many who subordinate the US to the United Nations, the answer is yes!
For the many who like to quash our personal freedom and liberty in favor of state controlled indoctrination, the answer is yes!

Why is the federal government even involved?
Where in the Constitution does it enumerate federal power over education?
The answer is nowhere.

Why is the Federal government even involved? Ever heard of segrgated schools in the south in the 60s? Compulsary education? The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA)?

The FG has always valued education. So much so, that it has created an entire department that listens to state concerns and issues.

Most policies and curricula are enforced at the state and local levels. The FG has created laws and polices in an overarching theme to ensure the rights of individuals that are protected by our Constitution.

Really, the black helicopter thing is getting old.