Bi-Wiring, what exactly is it doing?

Options
1234568»

Comments

  • tratliff
    tratliff Posts: 1,663
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    I think the general consensus is to simply bash anything fairly low priced, and anything that is AVR.

    I have owned about a half dozen receivers over the last several years, and on a whim bought an entry level Sony AVR a few years ago, for my one home threatre set up and expected it to sound like crap after reading comments in a few forums.

    To my surprise it sounded quite good. In fact all the bad comments I had read, turned out to be mostly not true.

    I still like my one HK from 1981, but honestly it cost 219.99 at the time, which was a decent bit for a 20 WPC basic receiver.

    But I got my sony for $169.99 on sale, and it does a lot more, and still sounds fairly good.

    Not perfect mind you, and not the final word on anything, but not even close to as bad as how some describe them.

    I think this quote, from another thread, might help us understand the level of equipment that our friend Kevin might be using. I NOW understand all his comments.
    2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL Carbon Limited, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, Modwright PH 150, Denon DP-59l w/Denon DL-301MKII, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ Speaker Cables, WAY Silver 4+ Interconnect Cables, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon and Hurricane Power Cables
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,640
    Options
    "Everyone said it sounded like crap but I thought it sounded good. Clearly everyone else was wrong, not me."

    That doesn't sound egotistical at all or anything.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Options
    LOL. Deja Moo. Good one.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tratliff
    tratliff Posts: 1,663
    Options
    Keep dancing..... We have been exposed to some of the equipment but nothing worthy of a discussion.
    2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL Carbon Limited, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, Modwright PH 150, Denon DP-59l w/Denon DL-301MKII, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ Speaker Cables, WAY Silver 4+ Interconnect Cables, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon and Hurricane Power Cables
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    Options
    tratliff wrote: »
    I think this quote, from another thread, might help us understand the level of equipment that our friend Kevin might be using. I NOW understand all his comments.

    Yeah, that explains a lot.

    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • vcwatkins
    vcwatkins Posts: 1,993
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    My main media is 128kbps MP3, and Cassette and low quality streaming.

    I am running some Sound Design speakers from a 3 piece system from the 1980s.

    My panasonic thrusters are still belting out the tunes!
    Okay, clearly trolling. Added to ignore list.
    b]Beach Audio[/b]: Rega RP6 (mods) - AT33PTG/II - Parks Budgie SUT - PSAudio NPC * Eversolo DMP-A6 * Topping D90iii * Joule-Electra LA-100 mkIII * Pass Aleph 30 * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 2.3tl (mods) * PSAudio PPP3
    Beach Study: Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra & Pre Box S2 * Pass ACA * DH Labs SS Q10 * Brines Folded ML-TQWT RS 40-1354 * PSA Dectet
    Beach Master: WiiM Pro * Dayens Menuetto * Zu Libtec * Dynaudio Audience 50
    Beach Den: Bluesound Powernode 2i * DH Labs SS Q10 * Zu Omen DWII * Richard Gray RGPC
    Town Study: WiiM Pro * Chord Qute (Pardo) * Elekit TU-8600 * MIT S3 * Revel M22 * Beyer DT-990 * Shunyata Hydra 2
    Town Den: Music Hall mm5.1se - Denon DL-103r - Jolida JD9ii (mods) * WiiM Pro * Cary xCiter * Rogue 99 Magnum * Schiit Aegir * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 1.2tl (mods) * Dectet * Bottlehead Crack - Senn 600
    Town Porch: WiiM Pro Plus * Sunfire Sig II * Canare 4S11 * Magnepan 1.6 * Dectet
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    My main media is 128kbps MP3, and Cassette and low quality streaming.

    I am running some Sound Design speakers from a 3 piece system from the 1980s.

    My panasonic thrusters are still belting out the tunes!

    I think the point here is that you are expressing your opinions among a group of people that aspire to a high-fidelity listening experience. You clearly do not. Which is fine I suppose, but totally invalidates your input regarding such matters and makes your input unwelcome and inappropriate.
    If fidelity is your goal, why not come clean and tell us what your reference system is?
    I don't necessarily disagree with some of your points, but I would like to know what your baseline for fidelity is. Judging by the above quote, and the previous one from @tratliff, you have a low bar.
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,650
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    vc69 wrote: »
    tratliff wrote: »
    I think this quote, from another thread, might help us understand the level of equipment that our friend Kevin might be using. I NOW understand all his comments.

    Yeah, that explains a lot.

    My main media is 128kbps MP3, and Cassette and low quality streaming.

    I am running some Sound Design speakers from a 3 piece system from the 1980s.

    My panasonic thrusters are still belting out the tunes!

    That explains A LOT!

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    Options
    I for one don't agree, but your certainly welcome to stand in the minority.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    Options
    I think we can at least now partially agree, though, that speaker cables falls into that realm.

    That would be a big, HELL NO WE DON"T.

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    Options
    F1nut wrote: »
    I think we can at least now partially agree, though, that speaker cables falls into that realm.

    That would be a big, HELL NO WE DON"T.

    LOL.....ya know, for someone with "no dog in this fight", he certainly wants at least some to believe in this supposed "audio myth". Put the shovel down Kevin, you won't like North Korea.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    I think we can at least now partially agree, though, that speaker cables falls into that realm.

    Still trolling. It never stops.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
    edited June 2015
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    Okay guys, leaving the discussion at this point.

    It is pointless to get into a discussion of anything that is considered an "Audio Myth".

    I think we can at least now partially agree, though, that speaker cables falls into that realm.

    But....but....but, you @kevintomb (and @xcapri79 ) still haven't adressed any of the questions that were asked in this thread and the ".....time of day" thread. What happened to a friendly debate and reasoning things out using logic?

    Also, you have yet to prove that speaker cables fall into the "audio myth" category. So, I believe that a majority of us do not agree with your sentiment.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,969
    Options
    RECOMENDATIONS?
    This thread unfortunately morphed into yet another IC/wire mudslinging thread.

    That said: lF one was in the market for bulk length inexpensive light speaker wire in the 18-20 gage range for, say, tweeters - either rewiring or true bi-amping.

    I have some Monster cable I got free about that size but appreciate other opinions.

    Thanks in advance for mature responses.

    Tony
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    Options
    BJC or Canare....but you can find great deals on the used markets too.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,969
    Options
    Thanks for taking time and patience to respond maturely!
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • vmaxer
    vmaxer Posts: 5,116
    edited June 2015
    Options
    BlueFox wrote: »
    LOL. Deja Moo. Good one.

    I see it got removed, guess the bull word wasn't appropriate. I understand and probably should have cleaned it up.
    Pio Elete Pro 520
    Panamax 5400-EX
    Sunfire TGP 5
    Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
    PS Audio GCPH phono pre
    Sunfire CG 200 X 5
    Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
    OPPO BDP-83 SE
    SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
    Ctr CS1000p
    Sur - FX1000 x 4
    SUB - SVS PB2-Plus

    Workkout room:
    Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
    Onkyo TX-DS898
    GFA 555
    Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
    Ft - SDA 1C

    Not being used:
    RTi 38's -4
    RT55i's - 2
    RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
    LSI 15's
    CSi40
    PSW 404
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    Options
    vmaxer wrote: »
    I see it got removed, guess the bull word wasn't appropriate. I understand and probably should have cleaned it up.

    Too bad, that was great!!!

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    Options
    Keiko wrote: »
    And again, I'm not your friend. Enjoy your sociopathic psychosis.

    It's like Deja Moo all over again, eh Mike?

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
    Options
    And @kevintomb and @xcapri79 still aren't answering any questions; and yet are still continuing their "witty" banter. Does this show that they are continuing their usual behavior because their intentions are to show they are correct? Or is it because they are not able to prove they are correct; and they are not able to have a two way constructive conversation leading to learning something.

    I will leave it to the reader to decide.............

    Would @kevintomb and @xcapri79 like to decide to engage in some real conversation? Or are you going to follow the same pattern? Please say you have something real to add to this "conversation" and that you are not really here to get the thread(s) closed and/or try to demean others instead of trying to show your views are correct.

    I look forward to your reply to the many questions asked in this thread and the "sound quality and time of day thread".
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,100
    Options
    You will be waiting till hell freezes over. We have a better chance of John, Paul, George and Ringo taking the world by storm on a new world tour, and two of them are dead.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,059
    Options
    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Keiko wrote: »
    I'd probably go with 12 or 14 AWG. If you're looking for inexpensive, bulk wire. Blue Jeans Cable would be my recommendation.
    http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

    I'm glad my efforts are finally paying off my and you are offering a good suggestion. Perhaps the cable debates are over now that my friend Keiko has turned to the right side. ;)

    Thank you.

    x-man: I believe this proves that you understand that cables make a difference. There are much cheaper alternatives than the BJC referenced by Keiko that would surely get the signal from point A to point B.

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cerrowire-250-ft-Clear-14-2-Speaker-Wire-260-1402G3/202206463
    This seems more in line with what you would recommend.

    This is a sincere post based on your well known opinion on the subject of cables. I'm not intending to be funny, demeaning, etc.
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    Options
    I take issue with the esoteric type of speaker cables that cost several hundred or thousands of dollars for typical lengths which make unscientific claims as to their performance over that of the reasonably priced cables mentioned above.

    Yet, from what I have been able to discern based on your stated experiences with cable, you have never tried the cables you rail against, instead choosing to rely on speculation under the guise of science rendering your opinion on the matter useless.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    Options
    F1nut wrote: »
    , instead choosing to rely on speculation under the guise of science rendering your opinion on the matter useless.

    Cha-ching. I believe that has been the point all along.

    Science.....even within their own scientific community, do not opinions vary ? Do they not question one another ? How tests are done....what equipment was used, what conditions, if those conditions were accurately reproduced ?

    If all that was still on the up and up, scientist would still disagree with one another in certain areas. Scientist themselves are not immune to the same biases, placebo, whatever you want to call it.....especially when grant money is involved.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,059
    Options
    xcapri79 wrote: »
    ... I've never quibbled over the sensibly priced choices...

    So as long as the cable is not what you perceive to be overpriced then cables make a difference?
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,059
    Options
    kevintomb wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    xcapri79 wrote: »
    ... I've never quibbled over the sensibly priced choices...

    So as long as the cable is not what you perceive to be overpriced then cables make a difference?

    Kinda the other way around. (( I feel the same as what you quoted from him...))
    Cables make a small difference in LESS DEGRADATION OF THE SOUND, up to a certain point. But not based purely on price.
    I don't see how it's the other way around. He said that as long as they are sensibly priced, cables can make a difference.

    You guys decide, either they can make a difference or they can't.

    I'll ask again and I won't expect an answer since I've asked several times and haven't gotten an answer: What cables do you use kev? x-man?
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • vmaxer
    vmaxer Posts: 5,116
    Options
    To the trolls.

    gmkh0loey47l.jpg
    Pio Elete Pro 520
    Panamax 5400-EX
    Sunfire TGP 5
    Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
    PS Audio GCPH phono pre
    Sunfire CG 200 X 5
    Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
    OPPO BDP-83 SE
    SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
    Ctr CS1000p
    Sur - FX1000 x 4
    SUB - SVS PB2-Plus

    Workkout room:
    Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
    Onkyo TX-DS898
    GFA 555
    Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
    Ft - SDA 1C

    Not being used:
    RTi 38's -4
    RT55i's - 2
    RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
    LSI 15's
    CSi40
    PSW 404
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • DollarDave
    DollarDave Posts: 2,575
    edited June 2015
    Options
    So, you think you use Monster cable, but aren't certain of the gauge, and then claim that after a certain unspecified gauge (fairly early on) that there is no discernible difference?

    What kind of fool are you?

    Now you've attempted to change your argument from "don't make a difference" to "don't make a discernible difference". [edit] you've edited that to "Meaningful difference" ... But either way, is that to you, or to someone else? Where is your scientific measurement as to where the difference becomes "meaningful"?

    Then, you are making a broad statement about when a speaker cable is reasonably sized and of a short length, it is not the most important thing that can be tweaked... Do you have the ability to comprehend what you read? I can honestly say that no one on this forum has ever stated that cables are the most important thing in their system...

    I'm an armchair shrink, I think your biggest problem is, although you and x only allude to it, is the amount of money that some people spend on their ic's and cables...

    Your just jealous. And foolish. Very, very foolish.
    Post edited by DollarDave on
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
This discussion has been closed.