Bi-Wiring, what exactly is it doing?

tonyb

Nightfall wrote: »

If that's the case MIT owes Jesse an entire brothel.

.....and enough blow to force him into skinny jeans.

ZLTFUL

And on that note, I am never visiting this thread again. Thanks @tonyb

tonyb

LOL....DON'T VISUALIZE THAT....YOU'LL BURN YOUR CORNEA'S OUT !!

Nightfall

DarqueKnight

Nightfall wrote: »

If that's the case MIT owes Jesse an entire brothel.

AudioQuest owes me the same.

voltz

now you sound like Mantis! think he has stock in AQ.

BlueFox

My Shunyata gear is worth every penny. In fact I have two Sigma HC (high current) power cables, and one Sigma Analog power cable on order. Hope they are at home tonight.

While having a degree does indicate a minimum amount of work and intelligence, in and of itself, it doesn’t really mean much. Working in the computer networking industry, I have the opportunity to work with both hardware and software engineers. Some are very sharp, others are okay, and some are dumber than dog doo.

As a generalization, I have found there are two basic types of engineers; those who think they know everything, and those who realize that the more they learn that they really know very little. The ones who think they know everything are usually the source of most problems, especially if they get into management.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

DarqueKnight wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

I guarantee you though, most musicians, recording studios, higher end stereo shops, don't use monoprice cables, and for good reason.

They are all part of the grand global conspiracy to induce people to spend huge amounts of cash on esoteric cables. They are all getting kickbacks, hookers, and coke from the high end cable manufacturers.

Well I'll be a ****...Ray.....you DO have a sense of humor. LMAO !!

I personally also take issue with the adage that "once a cable transfers the signal correctly, nothing else can be done."

Think about that. That insinuates that all cable manufacturers are selling you broken or sub par cables in their lower lines. Does that mean an AQ Evergreen cable doesn't transfer the signal correctly compared to the SKY, or other top AQ IC. ? Of course not, which is why that saying is bunk in my book.

Too many variables goes into a cable to just say all wire is wire, any SQ improvements perceived is placebo, or other such nonsense.

The way I see it DK, Acoustic zen owes me a boat load of hookers and kickbacks. Same with Analysis Plus, Steve McCormack, Legacy Audio. I simply don't recall anyone who we've suggested better cables to that came back and said they couldn't hear a difference....not one in over 15 years on this forum. Granted, interconnects are easier to hear differences than with digital cables, but it's still there.

I hate to tell you bro that with a cable that is the goal. You personally can have all the issues you want with it but once a cable transfers the signal correctly , there is NOTHING more is going to do. Thats it man , thats the goal. That is exactly why we wire nuts are trying to achieve.
The real question is as follows,
What does it take to get the signal correctly? Thats the million dollar question my brother. When you have been in the business as long as I have , I have asked this question to so many engineers from so many different companies. Some will tell you the truth and some will white lie to protect their vested interest in many of these wire companies.
I will have to speak up and say MOST high end companies wires are nothing but snake oil, fancy wire wrapped up in very pretty jackets. I hate that I know that but in many ways I'm glad I do. There is only so many things you can do with a conductor but its the care and engineering behind it that really makes the differences we all seek and are willing to pay top dollar for.
I have been reviewing cables on this forum for decades. If you have read any of them, I study them more mentally then most. When I discovered differences in the way cables perform in my systems and the systems I Install Professionally, I had to learn everything I could from anyone who would teach me.
If you remember, once I went Audioquest, I kinda started to fall off the mental path of keep searching for the perfect conductor of any kind. Once I learned from some of the companies I have been to over the decades and the quality that goes into some and not into others, I found a home where much truth be told.
Listen , you will never ever find cheap cables in my systems ever. They are compromised due to quality of materials used. Most of them are not built to spec and many of them fail.
What I also find is that most on this forum who likes to research wire and everything seem to not understand the fundamental goals of each conductor. There is a lot of truth in many of the things that have been posted on this thread about cables even without which I believe no experience from the poster. But some of the information that has been presented has a lot of truth to it. Can be very misleading but if you are a student of the game you must at least listen.

I'm just gonna give you an example of a truth that can be taken the wrong way ok.

Body Builders Eat eggs.
Eggs are baby chickens.
Therefore Body Builders eat babies.

Can you see where I'm going with this?
Anyway I also have to say it's mental to argue with anyone about wire who has a opinion by just reading about it online and not testing it for themselves or learning everything before forming such strong opinions either way.
Look at it this way, if you find value in your cable choices and your very happy with what they do, then that game is done. Down the road you might want to try others and see things but at the end of the day when you sit in front of your rig and it makes you smile weather you have snake oil cables , correctly built cables or something in-between, thats really all that matters.

I honestly also think there is NO END to this conversation ever. As long as someone agrees and disagrees , this debate will never ever have an ending.
I personally lost the desire to make anyone see the light or convince them of what I have learned , found etc. I'll tell you my professional opinion and what you do with it is your business. You can believe in my or not , for me it doesn't matter. You do what you want with my info, if you ask I will tell but thats it.

ukcolin99

I am sure I missed the answer to this question in previous 7 pages or question is invalid, still gonna ask...do different frequencies in the music travel through the speaker wire in different strands at the same speed, in random strands and/or they pass through all strands at the same speed, or different frequencies travel at different speeds?

DarqueKnight

cbridle wrote: »

I am sure I missed the answer to this question in previous 7 pages or question is invalid, still gonna ask...do different frequencies in the music travel through the speaker wire in different strands at the same speed, in random strands and/or they pass through all strands at the same speed, or different frequencies travel at different speeds?

All frequencies of electromagnetic radiation (light, radio waves, etc.) travel at the speed of light in free space. Through a conductor, the speed of electromagnetic radiation is slowed a bit. How much it is slowed depends on the refraction index of the conductor at a particular frequency.

A particular frequency component in a signal cannot "choose" a particular wire strand in a cable. Only a filter can route a particular frequency component in a signal.

tonyb

Dang....I created a monster.lol

Spot on KKKKKen. I'll send ya a Blackhawks hockey puck.

Moose68Bash

Or to state DK's excellent explanation in other words and as the venrable Latin maxim puts it: "De gustibus non est disputandum."

headrott

kevintomb wrote: »

Disagree.

The best cable is one that transfers a signal fully intact.

kevintomb wrote: »

Yes, actually the WHOLE object is to pass a signal unaltered, when dealing with speaker cables. It is not a purest mentality, but a logical mentality. Cables do nothing more than "Pass a signal"

There is no audio cable in existance (created with the technology we posess) that will pass an audio signal (made up of electricity) fully intact. There will be degredation to the signal no matter what wire (brand, metal(s), dialectric, configuration, and termination) is used. This includes both analog and digital cables.

That said, different cable configurations (geometry), dialectrics, metal(s), and terminations can degrade the signal less (or more). With lower degredation, the better the audio that ends up at your speakers, amp, DAC, pre-amp, etc.

This is why some cables sound better than others.

tonyb

Kevin, sorry pal....you couldn't be more wrong about so much. I get you did your tests years ago and no differences were heard. Normally I'd let that slide and say well ok then, they don't matter to YOU. However, if you can name these cables and the gear it was used on along with speakers, we'd appreciate it.

Even if they don't matter to YOU, doesn't mean that everyone else has to hear what Kevin hears.

I also don't subscribe to this "pass the signal unaltered" stuff. Everything alters the signal to some degree, for better or worse. That's why pre amps don't all sound the same, speakers, amps, cdp's, cables, dacs....you name it. It also doesn't matter either, as everyone will buy what suits their own preferences. Piecing together all the different sound signatures or characteristics is called synergy, has absolutely zero to do with passing a signal unaltered as we all play to our own personal preferences.

If cables didn't matter, I'm guessing your using all monoprice stuff ? If not, why not ? Or are all their cables somehow broken ? I won't even get into the different sound signatures of metallurgy. Make up a couple sets of IC's using the same plugs on each. Make up pairs with copper, silver, brass, aluminum....gold may be too expensive, and tell me you can't hear a difference.

tratliff

I have watched this thread grow for the past couple of weeks. Really funny and laughable. If you don't see the need to spend excessively on cables then be happy with the ones you have.

I feel that cables are an extension of the complete system. My cables represent an expenditure of about 25% of my system. With the investment being made I do not find that out of the question.

I would also like to understand the equipment that was used in this blind test. But my expectation of the list would be a system that cannot resolve to the level needed to tell the difference.

If you would like you can come visit my system and exchange the SC's. I have 3 sets. One set of Doug bi-amp/bi-wires, a set of AQ and a set of monster. You change them out as you feel and I bet $100, on each set, I can tell you which ones are connected.

vmaxer

tratliff wrote: »

I would also like to understand the equipment that was used in this blind test. But my expectation of the list would be a system that cannot resolve to the level needed to tell the difference.

Bingo!!

There was a time that I couldn't really tell a difference, but the more I have upgraded my equipment the more difference cables make. I am not talking slight differences either.

tratliff

Kevin. So let's make sure I read your post correctly. You said they could make a "tiny" difference. Correct??

If that is correct then I can hear the difference on my system as stated by you. That is exactly what is being discussed. With the investment I have made and the extremes I go to for better results I will continue to travel down the road to better cables when I think the investment is necessary.

We can state opinions all day but until you provide sufficient information to back up your claims I will continue to shake my head every time you make a response.

headrott

headrott wrote: »

kevintomb wrote: »

Disagree.

The best cable is one that transfers a signal fully intact.

kevintomb wrote: »

Yes, actually the WHOLE object is to pass a signal unaltered, when dealing with speaker cables. It is not a purest mentality, but a logical mentality. Cables do nothing more than "Pass a signal"

There is no audio cable in existance (created with the technology we posess) that will pass an audio signal (made up of electricity) fully intact. There will be degredation to the signal no matter what wire (brand, metal(s), dialectric, configuration, and termination) is used. This includes both analog and digital cables.

That said, different cable configurations (geometry), dialectrics, metal(s), and terminations can degrade the signal less (or more). With lower degredation, the better the audio that ends up at your speakers, amp, DAC, pre-amp, etc.

This is why some cables sound better than others.

I should clarify (in reading back my post) that when I say fully intact, I mean completely unaltered. All electric signals are altered going through any wire in existance. Hopefully, that is more clearly stated.

headrott

kevintomb wrote: »

You guys are completely missing the point.

What I think, what comparison I did several years ago, and what my friends thought, none of that matters. What equipment I used, AND subsequently they used to do the same comparisons, none of that matters.

Those are just tests, fun and frustrating.

But what matters is reality. Subjective impressions and tests are fine, but they do not always predict reality. Reality is what matters.

No one is saying exactly "Cables do not matter", but something even simpler and totally based in reality, science and simple electronics.

They matter immensely to conducing the signal from amp to speaker, but beyond that, the actual choices made as far as MOST amp and speaker combos, and the short lengths we mostly use, and the very fact that we are dealing with fairly low audio frequencies, determines what amount of interaction they CAN have.

Those factors limit the inherent interaction.

Nothing to do with me, nor what 15 other guys on a forum say, nor what a cable ad says, or even what we wish or hope they might do or change.

It is not a battle of "Naysayers" versus "Believers", or "Haters of cables" versus "Those that love them".
The ideal connection would be a speaker with the amp output hooked right to the speaker input. That would eliminate all cable degradation.

The problem is, that ideal connection in reality, is not much better than even a mediocre cable can provide. Therefore, there are only tiny gains to be made.

We are barking up the wrong tree.

The reality is, you are missing the point and trying to pass it off onto us. ALL cables degrade the sound passed from one component to another. Some cables dgrade the audio less than others. That is the reality (and the point). The lower the degredation factor, the more improved the audio will become. The greater or lesser degree of degredation is/are the reason for differences in audio cables (for both analog and digital cables).

Perhaps the electronics involved in audio is not as "simple" as you perceive them to be.

BlueFox

headrott wrote: »

The reality is, you are missing the point and trying to pass it off onto us.

And when it occurs in every cable thread, and over and over in the same thread, it is called 'Trolling'.

F1nut

The problem is, that ideal connection in reality, is not much better than even a mediocre cable can provide. Therefore, there are only tiny gains to be made.

Tony said it best, "you couldn't be more wrong about so much"

You are barking up the wrong forum.

nooshinjohn

DSkip wrote: »

Others on this forum are in the same boat. Don't be mistaken - we can eliminate bias. Hell, most of us can probably tell you a handful of differences between the cables.

I eliminated bias by placing the biased on ignore...

F1nut

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I eliminated bias by placing the biased on ignore...

LMAO

tonyb

xcapri79 wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

Others on this forum are in the same boat. Don't be mistaken - we can eliminate bias. Hell, most of us can probably tell you a handful of differences between the cables.

I eliminated bias by placing the biased on ignore...

Now that's biased, don't you think?!

Nope, that's called preference.

tratliff

kevintomb wrote: »

Pointless to talk logic basically.

Yep, pointless

vcwatkins

kevintomb wrote: »

Nor will I even bother going down the road about my cable tests I did years ago.

Why not share the info? I'd be very interested to see details. Is it posted elsewhere?

vc69

You guys would be horrified to know what I am using for speaker cable right now.

nooshinjohn

vcwatkins wrote: »

kevintomb wrote: »

Nor will I even bother going down the road about my cable tests I did years ago.

Why not share the info? I'd be very interested to see details. Is it posted elsewhere?

He cant post what he has never done, and it's too much work to do to cover up his lies.

BlueFox

kevintomb wrote: »

tratliff wrote: »

Kevin. So let's make sure I read your post correctly. You said they could make a "tiny" difference. Correct??

If that is correct then I can hear the difference on my system as stated by you. That is exactly what is being discussed. With the investment I have made and the extremes I go to for better results I will continue to travel down the road to better cables when I think the investment is necessary.

We can state opinions all day but until you provide sufficient information to back up your claims I will continue to shake my head every time you make a response.

Tiny difference...correct.

I have made no "Claims". Nor will I even bother going down the road about my cable tests I did years ago.

I realize some are simply happy believing what they believe, and simply do not want to know or hear the truth.

Anyone with even the simplest knowledge of basic electronics, and speakers and audio realize the speaker cable thing, is a dead end. A non issue mostly.

Attacking my credibility, along with other forum members, simply shows a lack of a real argument.

As far as providing more information. I will decline. I see where ALL these "Audio Myth" debates go.

First attack the messenger directly, then attack their hearing, then attack how the test was done, then attack the equipment used, then attack even the credibility of doing a blind test.

Then start silly comments, then attack the messenger. Then make more silly comments.

Pointless to talk logic basically.

I have to quote this for posterity, as it is an excellent example of a troll post. Line after line of opinion stated as fact, and written simply to inflame, aggravate, and start arguments.

For example:

“I have made no "Claims" ".

Yet, in the same post we see the same ‘Claims’ as in numerous previous posts, which are also repeated in multiple threads.

“I realize some are simply happy believing what they believe, and simply do not want to know or hear the truth.”

and

“Anyone with even the simplest knowledge of basic electronics, and speakers and audio realize the speaker cable thing, is a dead end. A non issue mostly.”

Then when people ask basic questions regarding the veracity of these ‘Claims’, we get

“Nor will I even bother going down the road about my cable tests I did years ago. ”

and

“As far as providing more information. I will decline.”

LOL.

tonyb

Kevin, even those with a basic knowledge of common sense know when to stop digging a hole.

I suppose all those people who make cables, speakers, amps, etc, have no basic knowledge of electronics ? That's a pretty bold statement there chief, I'll give ya a chance to retract it.

Speaking for myself, I've never walked into a hi-fi shop, gone to audio shows, or visited anyone who has a midrange system on up, who use a basic cable such as Monoprice. I've never seen or heard of a band worth their salt using basic cables. Nor have I heard of any musician, late night talk show bands, or anyone else who has been into music or audio for any length of time.

Now, that's not to say there isn't any either, but I would also say that's certainly a minority. So all these highly educated people who build this stuff, must all be somehow compromised...crazy....idiots ? People with far more credentials than you ?

I also find it funny that X has bought some Monster cables in the FM. All those lessor brands must be broke I guess. Ahh....but he only paid 20 bucks, and that's the crux of the matter right there. A lot of times peoples opinions follow their wallet.