Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Sorry DarqueKnight, you get a green light for the cable brand but you get a red light for gear and music. I tought you were right about the gear but a quick check back in time proves otherwise.

Cheers

Thanks for the thread research. I wish you had the same enthusiasm for getting your ears on as much gear as possible in order to form informed opinions. However, I realize that for many, talking about gear is more important than actually listening to it.

You have to realize that these types of threads are just comic relief and cheap entertainment for me and other performance audio enthusiasts. When an OP does not present a compelling initial statement, we typically don't sit glued to the computer screen until further facts become available.

In going back to the OP's first post, he says nothing at all about equipment and only provides musical genres rather than details on specific selections. It is a pity, and a crying shame, that you do not know the difference between listing a musical genre and actually listing the music used during a cable evaluation.

bobt wrote: »

I don't under stand the price for speaker cables....some cost more then the equipment there hookup to....The price is insane. The Stereophile mags review these....of course there not going to say anything bad about them..they get paid to do this...then sit there and try to tell you....oh yes we hear this one gives you more highs, or this one is more clear.....BULL...

Sorry..it's a piece of wire...when you get to a certain point...thats about it.

I have a 12 gauge speaker cable, I will not say which kind. I went and spent $250 (on sale)...some supposed great cable......NO DAM DIFFERENCE.

No way you could tell the difference between the 2. Now OK...."MAYBE" if your playing some violin thing........MAYBE you could hear something different, but my guess would be NOT. If I changed cables on these "reviewers"...they would not have a clue............

OK, I play mostly rock and blues, but do throw in some classic music.

If Stravinsky, or Tchaikovsky..sound the same to me, over different cables..well I get the fact.....basically you have just been riiped off, because it's called "audiophile"....and no I'm not tone deaf...I've mixed CD's for people , run PA mixers...I know what good sound is.

It's like Boats...if it's marine..you pay a ton....same crap you can buy for cheap...Audiophile.....the price goes up.....

Most of this "sound" is precived..just because you spent..300 plus on a cable.

The OP does not divulge equipment information until he is specifically asked for it in post #12:

janmike wrote: »

Ok, so what equipment do you have and what cables are you using?

He does not provide an equipment list until post #21.

bobt wrote: »

I have a set of SDA 1C's
Adcom 400 (not the best)
Sony XA3ES
Onkyo Intergra M-504

You must realize that I "check in" on these types of threads on an infrequent basis. When the OP did not make a valid argument from the beginning, he was dismissed as not being likely to provide relevant information. I should not have to go through the thread and string several of his posts together to get a clear picture of the circumstances and experiences that contributed to his opinion.

The OP admits that his Adcom GTP-400 is not the best. In fact, it is known to be a low resolution tuner-preamp. They are always available on the used market for around $100. Pointing out low quality in your gear is not a good way to inspire confidence in your cable evaluations.;) Not trying to bash, as I respect Adcom and currently own 7 Adcom amplifiers (GFA-555 Mk II, GFA-5400, and five GFA-5500's), and formerly owned five other Adcom amps (two GFA 555 Mk II's, a GFA-5802, and two GFA-565's). I have also owned six of their preamps (two GFP-565's, one GFP-555, one GFP-555 MkII, and two GFP-750's).

After the OP's reluctance to provide equipment and music selection details in the first post, is it any wonder why I didn't sit in front of my computer glued to the edge of my chair waiting on his next gem of audio enlightenment to descend from on high? Most of us (performance audio enthusiasts) were through with the OP when he admitted to using a cheap, noisy, low resolution preamp-tuner for a cable trial.

As far as music, this is what the OP said:

bobt wrote: »

OK, I play mostly rock and blues, but do throw in some classic music.

Telling us what musical genre he listened to does not provide useful information. He could have been listening to poorly recorded music. If you read equipment reviews in the professional audio press and many of the reviews here on this and other audio forums, you will find that the reviewer takes care to list the specific equipment and musical selections he used during an evaluation.

As an example, see my equipment and musical selection details provided in post #2 of this interconnect cable review to see how it is properly done.

Therefore, to revise my traffic light rankings:

1. I still have a green light on cable brand.
2. I have a green light on music (details baby, details!).
3. Since the OP did not provide equipment details until he was specifically asked in post #12 and since his response did not appear until post #21, I think I deserve a yellow light on that one. Some performance audio jurisdictions would grant me a green light on that one as well.:)

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Audioquest sucks.

Thems fighten words. I like the AQ sound:mad:

Telling us what musical genre he listened to does not provide useful information. He could have been listening to poorly recorded music. If you read equipment reviews in the professional audio press and many of the reviews here on this and other audio forums, you will find that the reviewer takes care to list the specific equipment and musical selections he used during an evaluation.

As an example, see my equipment and musical selection details provided in post #2 of this interconnect cable review to see how it is properly done.

Therefore, to revise my traffic light rankings:

1. I still have a green light on cable brand.
2. I have a green light on music (details baby, details!).
3. Since the OP did not provide equipment details until he was specifically asked in post #12 and since his response did not appear until post #21, I think I deserve a yellow light on that one. Some performance audio jurisdictions would grant me a green light on that one as well.

First i would like to commend you for the review you have provided and other ones I read from you (matter of fact I wanted to do so on one of your latest discussion/review you have done but unfortunately I couldn't do so since it was closed before I could do so as it was closed by the mod as it became sour (shamefull!)).

This kind of discussion/reviews is exactly what I call positive and benificial to forum users. However, you can not expect new members to ALL be able to go in this fashion unless they are led on the right path. Some questions were asked as to which gear he was using and he responded according to what he actually tought he was asked... he then needed further instructions on the right path. In example, you or someone else could have led him (posted) to the link you have just provided me and then he could have possibly responded accordingly (depending on his willingness and ability to go that route) which then could have led this entire discussion toward a more positive result.

You nearly put your footh in your mouth with the audioquest comment (I am saying this with a big smile on my face meaning no accusation or harm) I have read the audioquest document with greath interest (in all honesty skipping most of the marketting spill at the end since that part is not suitable for my thurst of understanding this cable technology). Yet this leads me to do some testing in a near future.

Yet, this cable discussion has taken over the allocated time (I guess I am un-disciplined ) since my priorities are now gearing toward getting my spa in proper working condition with the summer season getting closer and closer :cool: Thank you for sharing, we will surely have some more encounter at the end of next week as I am leaving for Regina to take care of an event there and my planning isn't even completed

Cheers

michaeljhsda2 wrote: »

Michael was here

Funny

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Audioquest sucks.

I am an MIT man myself but he wanted technical info and who better to give it than the people who helped make the cables.

seafire wrote: »

Hi as you can see I held back and let some others do the talking.Out of all I have met on here DK seems to be the most enthusiastic and methodical when it comes to testing and evaluating gear.Although I may not always agree with him,his posts always make for interesting reads.I therefore have a valid question for DK and PLEASE i am not trying to be nasty or funny but would really appreciate his take on the following questions.
I speak under correction but from what I gather here you are running speakers that are + 20 years old.My question to you is as follows.Do you really think that with these "outdated" speakers that you can make valid evaluations of differences with any/all audio gear given that loudspeakers are the end accumulation of all in your audio gear link?
From your posts I have gathered that you are a musician and that you play the saxophone?.It is a well known fact that live instruments (saxophone in particular) lead to threshold shift deafness.If so, don't you think that this changes a person's perception to sound?
Why I am asking this is because through the years I have noticed that some of my friends who are musicians,have a different take on what sounds good compared to for example myself.What I noticed was that their sensitivity was down, but they had a much more acute ear in terms of harmonics with regards to live instruments.Your take?

You know .... this whole thread gives one an appreciation of what Martin Luther endured at the Diet of Worms.

DK, keep enduring.

seafire wrote: »

Hi as you can see I held back and let some others do the talking.Out of all I have met on here DK seems to be the most enthusiastic and methodical when it comes to testing and evaluating gear.Although I may not always agree with him,his posts always make for interesting reads.I therefore have a valid question for DK and PLEASE i am not trying to be nasty or funny but would really appreciate his take on the following questions.
I speak under correction but from what I gather here you are running speakers that are + 20 years old.My question to you is as follows.Do you really think that with these "outdated" speakers that you can make valid evaluations of differences with any/all audio gear given that loudspeakers are the end accumulation of all in your audio gear link?
From your posts I have gathered that you are a musician and that you play the saxophone?.It is a well known fact that live instruments (saxophone in particular) lead to threshold shift deafness.If so, don't you think that this changes a person's perception to sound?
Why I am asking this is because through the years I have noticed that some of my friends who are musicians,have a different take on what sounds good compared to for example myself.What I noticed was that their sensitivity was down, but they had a much more acute ear in terms of harmonics with regards to live instruments.Your take?

I know your question was directed at someone else,but you pretty much answered your own question.Not everybody hears the same,which by itself can explain alot of this cable debate.Why some can't tell the difference between Bose and B&W....why a guy can listen to the sound of a car engine and think something doesn't sound right and another would have no clue something was wrong.
Can we put this sucker to bed allready?

Strange how this suddenly got more technical. I'm waiting for more!

Flash21 wrote: »

Talking about double blind testing is fine...demanding that I do it in my home is unreasonable. Seriously, how would I set that up? It would be VERY difficult to do a proper DB test in my house...or yours for that matter.

Again, single blind is fine for my purposes. I am confident that bias is not present in any significant form in the tests I have done. Believe me, I am not motivated to enjoy spending money on cables.

The complexity of DBT is dependent on the item being tested. You don't want the switching network to bias the test. For example I encourage every one to compare two CD players which can be done by inputing them into tape 1 and tape 2 and using your remote to switch between the tape inputs while having each CD play the same CD. It's also very important to make sure each CD player is outputing the same loudness. This is difficult and time consuming and requires a good DB meter.

DBTs with speaker wires or line cord wires is more difficult.

Did you seriously just say that professional musicians likely have a decreased hearing ability?

I've been playing guitar for about 10 years now, and my stellar hearing is due in big part to that fact.

ben62670 wrote: »

Again you are leaning on what scientist have the ability to measure. Your mind is shut tight about even acknowledging that there may be things that scientist can't measure.
Ben

Seeking evidence of incredible claims is not close minded. Ignoring all evidence that disagrees with your position most certainly is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

bikezappa wrote: »

A simple line cord regardless of the cost that plugs into 120v outline can not filter the signal. To do so would make Ohms law wrong.

Now if you add capacitors and inductors in the line cord you can filter the noise out but this is allready done in the electronic equipment to below your ears sensitivity.

You are correct that a simple line cord cannot filter noise.

You are incorrect in your assumption, which is shared by most power cable naysayers, that all a high performance power cord contains is thicker wire.

Adding passive filter networks is not the only way to remove noise from a power cable. High performance power cords employ several technologies to remove noise such as (but not limited to):

1. Encasing the wire in a jacket impregnated with ferrite. Ferrite is a magnetic material which shields against external noise.

2. Metallic shielding to block external noise.

3. Specific winding geometry of individual conductors to reduce noise in the power signal induced by electromagnetic strand interaction.

4. The use of noise filtering composite materials in the cable connectors to filter noise from the power signal.

Legitimate high performance power cable usually provide some technical discussion of the noise reduction technologies used in their cables. I invite you to go to the websites of PS Audio, Shunyata Research, Audioquest, MIT, Virtual Dynamics, etc. and review the technical documentation on their power cable products.

Item #4 was pioneered by physicist Jack Bybee whose research for the US Navy resulted in a class of materials that removed noise from a signal at the quantum level! If you do some research on "Jack Bybee", "Bybee filters", or "quantum purifiers", you will find some exceptionally fascinating information on an efficient noise reduction technology that can be implemented in very small sized enclosures and components.

I think heiney9 has made some interesting points. I found myself arguing that musical sensibility and musicianship would be a 'plus' in assessing the quality of a system. And I, do, have to side with Curt above as well. I don't consider myself a great musician but I can play by 'ear', and I can hear the difference between what is 'good' and what is not.

That's why I am surprised by heiney's example. A musician whose system is less than stellar or who is not trying to perfect it, the reason is that I've read many an article about famous classical performers who have absolutely fabulous audio systems.

I guess what I would say is that if you have no 'musical ear' whatsoever, then it would be very hard to argue that you have the tools necessary to 'hear' subtle differences and make sound (pun intended?) decisions. But in addititon, I think what heiney is really saying is that an 'ear' is not, by itself, sufficient...some familiarity with audio and actual listening experience and intent/desire is also necessary in the making of a potential audiophile.

cnh

ben62670 wrote: »

I fully agree with your first statement. There is no evidence that disagrees with what I have said. It would be nice to be able to prove what we can hear, but we can't. You are hung on the very few things that we can as of now measure.

So there is no way to demonstrate scientifically that there is an audible difference between wires? It's just not possible?

And there has been no evidence showing that wires don't make an audible difference? No studies showing the errors of human perception? Sorry Ben, but you are as close minded as they come.