An important message from the Management

treitz3

Al, IMO no need to go to two forums. This place is great as it is. Just needs a little "tweaking" is all.

You have some great input and opinions coming from about every angle fathomable in this thread. Embrace it, absorb it and make your own informed decision. 2 forums? Not a good idea, but that's just me thinking out loud. Good luck with any decision you and Polk decide to make.

Two forums would lose the magic this place brings to the table.

Roy Munson

steveinaz wrote: »

You mentioned:

"Nobody is ALWAYS going to get along with everyone (mods included). Wouldn't adding more mods complicate the clash, enforcement of rules, objectivity, consistency, etc?"

I took that to mean more mods would just create more personalities to deal with. It's not about "personalities" it's about having the bodies to keep the trolls and trouble makers at bay. Most of the problem is created when posts that are obviously going south aren't locked down immediately, and people reprimanded. I've seen these types of posts last for days--and gets uglier and uglier as time passes.

Damn Steve, you managed to hit the nail on the head twice now!

The whole point of more moderators is to nip problems in the bud before all the name calling etc. starts. Mark imo has done are very good job of watching over the forum but we need more Marks because this forum has grown to a point that I think it's not possible to expect 1 or 2 people to have the time needed to catch things fast enough.

When a troll comes here from another forum just to stir things up it needs to be dealt with swiftly. When flame wars start someone should have the authority to put the fire out quickly. One person just isn't enough..geez if Mark gets a little testy from time to time who can really blame him, after all hes been doing this a long time and built up friendships and I'm sure some detractors also.

The point imo is, we have the rules in place now that are for the most part beneficial to the forum but only if they are followed or moderated and a couple of extra mods I think would be advantageous to all. YMMV

shawn474

Roy Munson wrote: »

Damn Steve, you managed to hit the nail on the head twice now!

The whole point of more moderators is to nip problems in the bud before all the name calling etc. starts. Mark imo has done are very good job of watching over the forum but we need more Marks because this forum has grown to a point that I think it's not possible to expect 1 or 2 people to have the time needed to catch things fast enough.

When a troll comes here from another forum just to stir things up it needs to be dealt with swiftly. When flame wars start someone should have the authority to put the fire out quickly. One person just isn't enough..geez if Mark gets a little testy from time to time who can really blame him, after all hes been doing this a long time and built up friendships and I'm sure some detractors also.

The point imo is, we have the rules in place now that are for the most part beneficial to the forum but only if they are followed or moderated and a couple of extra mods I think would be advantageous to all. YMMV

Again if WE learn some self restraint not to feed the trolls or fan the flame wars, more mods wouldn't be needed (although I wouldn't be against adding more). The rest will take care of itself in due time.

shack

shawn474 wrote:

Then why not do this over PM? You clearly pointed out specific posts from Mark that were one sided and made him look bad. You didn't include ONE of his 15,000 or so that have helped people on this forum including me. Nor did you post any other posts that lead to the comments.

Agreed.

halo71

Funny thing....after this thread, and what has been said in it. ALREADY there sits a thread locked. Yeah more mods may be needed....cause the flames are STILL being fanned! :rolleyes:

nooshinjohn

Two forums are not needed Kab, but I do feel that having newbs go through a bit of an orientation process before full and unfettered access is given would help quite a bit. I will be the first to state that it would have helped me immeasureably. It would also allow Mods to isolate and identify potential problems and correct them. An example would be the spammers that seem to run rampant here on a daily basis. They could be virtually eliminated right up front. Potential troublemakes would also be weeded out for the most part rather quickly...

I remember clearly some months ago we had a rash of newbs coming in and making vile racist comments here on every thread. This is just one example of the type of attack against this forum I have seen. More active moderation and a restriction of forum access could have prevented them from doing what they did. I also remember that one of the trolls from that event lingered for a couple days afterwards until another member properly pointed out the meaning of the troll's name.

More active moderation is clearly needed, but there should be clear rules that every mod must follow, and every member here must abide by. I am not saying that draconian, big-brother tactics should be employed, but it does not serve the collective good to come down on seasoned members of this community for trying to protect this community when the trolls are allowed to remain. The disease cannot be cured until the cause has been treated(warned) or cut out(banned).

I respect you and the other mods. You guys have a tough job to do. Back in the old west, when the sherriff needed to take on the bad guys, he deputized all the firepower needed to back him up. Such times are where we find ourselves now. I believe it's time to clean up this town (remove the trolls)and restore order (updated rules) so that we can be prosperous once again.

janmike

treitz3 wrote: »

Welcome back Joe.

Yes, welcome back Joe. Hope all has been worked out.

Roy Munson

shawn474 wrote: »

I see what you're saying and agree to a point. But then if we, the membership, are behaving in ways that cause threads to be locked down, aren't we the ones at fault?

Indeed we are, but expecting a group of people the size of CP to act civilly all the time just isn't going to happen in the real world. People are going to get out of line at times and that's when the mods need to step in. Self policing is a great idea but I'm afraid it doesn't really work in the long run.

So yes, we the members are at fault but I believe we need to be "guided" from time to time.

phuz

Ricardo wrote: »

I say ban Cathy. She's the troublemaker.

Yeah but you have to make sure you ban her AT LEAST 200 times!

McLoki

Just judging from the 6+ pages of responses to how to make the forum better, I would have to say there is a plethora of chiefs and darn few indians. There is a reason in any large gathering of people the people making the decisions are usually far outnumbered by those that have to live by them.

I really enjoy the Polk forum and due to that, I am one of the few here that don't really have many suggestions for how to improve it other than this: There needs to be a lot of growing up on both sides of the fence. From both those giving the crap and from those taking it. Its an internet forum for Gods sake - If you consider your place on this forum as one of your more defining characteristics - You really need to back away from the keyboard for awhile and do some serious self evaluation...

I am sure more change is on the way - through it all, some will stay, some will not. I am inherently lazy and a creature of habit, so i plan to stay unless told otherwise. For those screaming for change both in this thread and in the past - please keep this basic rule close to your heart:

"Change is inherently different - not better"

Michael

comfortablycurt

Ok. I didn't read through this entire thread...but I will later on. There have been some good points made...some bad points made, some points that left me scratching my head thinking "wtf?"...but mostly good points.

As far as separating the Clubhouse into different sections? I don't see that making much difference personally. By separating it, all you'd really be serving to do is limit the number of people that might see a specific thread, and thus limit the advice you're likely to get on it.

For instance, I personally wouldn't look at a "home improvement" section very much. A lot of others wouldn't either. I don't have much to offer as far as advice for that topic anyway, but many others who would be able to wouldn't see them either. An automotive section? There again, I wouldn't really look at it very much, nor would many others. I don't come here to discuss automotive issues, but I may still become involved in an automotive discussion if I see the thread.

The Clubhouse is a the general discussion area. Any topics are ok there. As far as politics go...I don't really see that being a very big issue here. Yes, there have been a few politically fueled threads that have gotten out of hand, but it doesn't happen very often from what I've seen.

I can be guilty of getting a bit out of hand sometimes myself...but I've been trying to do better in those regards. Anymore, I try to stay away from cable debates...try to avoid the troll bait and only really discuss topics that I'm directly interested in.

Also, I feel that we really need more mods here. Not to say that Doro and Patrick don't do a good job, but this place is too big, with far too many members for only a few people to be able to effectively moderate it. Identification of the mods would help quite a bit as well. I didn't know that Russman was a mod until just a few months ago. I didn't know that Doro was a mod until I'd been a member here for almost a year.


One of the biggest problems I see here, as Al mentioned, is some of the senior members feeling like they own the place. They seem to think that since they've been around for so long, they have the right to say whatever the want, to whomever they want, without any consequences. They discourage a lot of the newbs from posting a lot, and generally don't seem to want new members here at all.

What some people need to understand, is that anyone is welcome at this board. Someone might have 15,000 posts, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily have any more audio related knowledge than a new member with only 5 posts under their belt. Some of these new members might be able to contribute a lot of useful knowledge to this board, but a lot of them turn tail and run when they get attacked by some of the senior members.

As I said before, I'm not totally innocent. I've pissed some people off in my time here, but I've also made some great friends. The ignore list is a great feature if there are people here that bother you. Personally, my ignore list has 0 people on it...I like to read some of the comments from the stupid people. It provides me with some comic relief to my day. However, I might not necessarily respond. Generally, I just shrug my shoulders, laugh and go spend some time listening to my 2 channel rig. That is why we're all here, correct? The enjoyment of audio and audio gear?

treitz3

Roy Munson wrote: »

Self policing is a great idea but I'm afraid it doesn't really work in the long run. So yes, we the members are at fault but I believe we need to be "guided" from time to time.

From the first post by Al...

kab wrote: »

Self policing is clearly not working.

shawn474

Tom, if we are all not mature enough to self police our own actions from this point forward after a plea from Al and the threat of shutting down the forum, give a good reason why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum?

wz2p7j

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Two forums are not needed Kab, but I do feel that having newbs go through a bit of an orientation process before full and unfettered access is given would help quite a bit. I will be the first to state that it would have helped me immeasureably. It would also allow Mods to isolate and identify potential problems and correct them. An example would be the spammers that seem to run rampant here on a daily basis. They could be virtually eliminated right up front. Potential troublemakes would also be weeded out for the most part rather quickly...

I remember clearly some months ago we had a rash of newbs coming in and making vile racist comments here on every thread. This is just one example of the type of attack against this forum I have seen. More active moderation and a restriction of forum access could have prevented them from doing what they did. I also remember that one of the trolls from that event lingered for a couple days afterwards until another member properly pointed out the meaning of the troll's name.

More active moderation is clearly needed, but there should be clear rules that every mod must follow, and every member here must abide by. I am not saying that draconian, big-brother tactics should be employed, but it does not serve the collective good to come down on seasoned members of this community for trying to protect this community when the trolls are allowed to remain. The disease cannot be cured until the cause has been treated(warned) or cut out(banned).

I respect you and the other mods. You guys have a tough job to do. Back in the old west, when the sherriff needed to take on the bad guys, he deputized all the firepower needed to back him up. Such times are where we find ourselves now. I believe it's time to clean up this town (remove the trolls)and restore order (updated rules) so that we can be prosperous once again.

John, I appreciate your diplomacy. The "orientation" around here has been a hazing at times for some of the newbs and even others. I was shocked a while back when the ruling CP clique turned on you for a period of time, and I thought you were one of the "good" guys around here. Always contributing something.

That's the kind of crap that needs to go. It's a great forum for periods of time then suddenly our own members turn on one another. Someone called it the "pack" mentallity. I think we need more, fair handed moderation.

Chris

Ricardo

Wow. I got it now. You just need to read this thread.

nooshinjohn

wz2p7j wrote: »

John, I appreciate your diplomacy. The "orientation" around here has been a hazing at times for some of the newbs and even others. I was shocked a while back when the ruling CP clique turned on you for a period of time, and I thought you were one of the "good" guys around here. Always contributing something.

That's the kind of crap that needs to go. It's a great forum for periods of time then suddenly our own members turn on one another. Someone called it the "pack" mentallity. I think we need more, fair handed moderation.

Chris

Thanks wz... I appreciate the kind words, but I would be the first to say I was(can be) a bit of a ****;) from time to time.

Club Polk has been way to diplomatic. This needs to be more of a "Benevolent Dictatorship" instead.

snow

shawn474 wrote: »

Then why not do this over PM? You clearly pointed out specific posts from Mark that were one sided and made him look bad. You didn't include ONE of his 15,000 or so that have helped people on this forum including me. Nor did you post any other posts that lead to the comments. I think even Tom would admit that he has made some jabbing remarks to Mark in the past in an attempt to get a rise out of him. Was Mark off base or out of line in those posts that you cited? Yes; nobody would argue there. To some degree I would say yes, but knowing Mark as I do, I think a lot were more a failed attempt at humor that sometimes gets misinterpreted. So your intentions should be called into question with your post.

I think he was trying to make a point, which I believe he succeded quite well at, if you believe that Mark or Russ either one have been perfect little angels before or after becoming moderators then you really need to start looking at older posts by these people, some of the most rude, insensitive, offensive even racially slanted things I have seen on this forum have came out of their mouths.

We all need to do better and we all need to follow the rules, simple as that. The problems that exsist today are a direct result of actions by both members and mods, new members and old timers. Im sure if you dug deep enough you could find some pretty nasty posts by me also.

Hell even some of my closest friends on this forum have typed some things that I was ashamed to see and my respect for them dropped accordingly. I truly believe that Mark has done some very nice things and helped people on this forum also and lilkewise with Russ, but I see a lot of **** kissing going on with both old timers and mods and it's pitiful to see this type of behavior. Are the people who do this truly that lonely or in need of being accepted? Grow a set and stand up for what is right if you see a mod get out of line report it the same way you would with another member new or old.



REGARDS SNOW

Roy Munson

shawn474 wrote: »

Tom, if we are all not mature enough to self police our own actions from this point forward after a plea from Al and the threat of shutting down the forum, give a good reason why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum?

It's my opinion that there are members here that are unable to get along and just one or two key words are enough to set them off regardless of what the consequences might be as far as CP goes. I might be full of it but I've seen it happen all to often and I don't think a plea by Al will make any difference eto these people!

disneyjoe7

I'm not sure but feel Mod's should be not be marked as so, but giving power to close threads remove threads and be able to remove user as in the case of spam.

Serendipity

Keiko wrote: »

That's the general idea. Mark and Patrick can't be here all the time. Having a couple of even tempered regulars to enforce the rules and conduct of the camaraderie could be beneficial..

Sure, why not have a few un-biased regulars help Mark and Patrick out?

cfrizz

shawn474 wrote: »

Again if WE learn some self restraint not to feed the trolls or fan the flame wars, more mods wouldn't be needed (although I wouldn't be against adding more). The rest will take care of itself in due time.

THANK YOU! Everyone is always trying to find someone else to blame rather than taking responsibility for THEIR own behavior.

Use the ignore & report this post features more rather than the reply to this post button first.

wz2p7j

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Thanks wz... I appreciate the kind words, but I would be the first to say I was(can be) a bit of a ****;) from time to time.

Club Polk has been way to diplomatic. This needs to be more of a "Benevolent Dictatorship" instead.

Hey John, not a problem. Remember that time I PM'd you? I really couldn't figure out what you did to incur the wrath of the pack. If you're a ****, read on:

I remember Candy Liquor. Guy got run right out of here. This forum just HATED that guy. I had some minor dealings with the guy and he was square with me. I think he was handicapped or something and really liked hanging out here.

I remember some hurricane or something was coming his way one time and he posted about his fear here. Some of the guys posted supportive stuff. Others including some Polk veterans openly wished he'd get wasted by the hurricane. Couldn't believe what I was reading. Maybe trying to be funny but obviously in poor taste.

It's up to us to be better.

Chris

shawn474

snow wrote: »

I think he was trying to make a point, which I believe he succeded quite well at, if you believe that Mark or Russ either one have been perfect little angels before or after becoming moderators......

Not at all; I noticed and realize that they make mistakes too. My point in DarquKnights's case was that he only took 5 posts (of which i am sure there are more) to paint a picture of Mark that I feel is inaccurate. He has helped MANY MANY people on this forum and his sense of humor rubs a lot of people the wrong way and I know he has let emotions get the best of him at times. Anyone who thinks they wouldn't as a moderator is kidding themselves. As you said, you haven't been an angel yourself on this forum and for the record neither have I.

snow wrote: »

I truly believe that Mark has done some very nice things and helped people on this forum also and lilkewise with Russ, but I see a lot of **** kissing going on with both old timers and mods and it's pitiful to see this type of behavior. Are the people who do this truly that lonely or in need of being accepted? Grow a set and stand up for what is right if you see a mod get out of line report it the same way you would with another member new or old.

If you see any of my posts as kissing mark's ****, you're mistaken. I make no bones about it; Mark is my friend. If he steps out of line and someone asks my opinion I will give it. But who am I to judge him when I have done the same thing that he is being run over the coals for. Bottom line is so has EVERYONE else. Does it make it right? Of course not. The ONLY thing that will work is for the rules to be adhered to and people getting reprimanded appropriately (me included). You admit to participating in the same things being discussed here.

The only thing that really bothers me is when people hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. From this point forward the answer is simple. Abide by the rules or reap what you sow.

shawn474

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.

Serendipity

I've said this before:

I don't think I have any quarrels with anybody on this forum.

I really like you all!

Demiurge

kab wrote: »

I'm sorry but I can't let this go unchallenged. I know those who layed the foundation and those who built the Forum brick by brick. I love and respect those guys and know most of them personally. Still, I must ask them to welcome and be patient with the newbie. Would you have me create two forums? One for the old timers and another for everyone else. How many would be hanging with the old timers? Where would you fall?

I didn't intend any disrespect by that comment, but I acknowledge the way it was phrased wasn't fair. What I'm trying to say is there are many people here who have given a lot to this forum beyond what you see elsewhere on the web for no other reason than friendship and community. I know you're well aware of this and I apologize for phrasing my comments in a way that made it seem like you were overlooking it.

I quoted that particular statement because in a way this place is what it is because of people like that (I don't claim to be among them having taken far more than I have been able to give).

I don't think there's anything wrong with your expectation (highlighted). In fact, I think that it should go without saying. Obviously it hasn't or this thread wouldn't exist.

The problem I see is that by the time Mark, Patrick, or Russ get here the damage has long since been done and the e-mail is already sitting in your inbox. While it would be great to rely on everyone having self-restraint when tempers flair, that's just not realistic. None of us are perfect and I get in my fair share of dust-ups.

I respect the predicament Polk is in here from a cost/benefit perspective.

The solution, to me, really seems to be giving a slew of moderators a shot with some revamped rules. I think these should be people who know what the spirit of Club Polk is.

snow

shawn474 wrote: »

If you see any of my posts as kissing mark's ****, you're mistaken. I make no bones about it; Mark is my friend. If he steps out of line and someone asks my opinion I will give it. But who am I to judge him when I have done the same thing that he is being run over the coals for. Bottom line is so has EVERYONE else. Does it make it right? Of course not. The ONLY thing that will work is for the rules to be adhered to and people getting reprimanded appropriately (me included). You admit to participating in the same things being discussed here.

The only thing that really bothers me is when people hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. From this point forward the answer is simple. Abide by the rules or reap what you sow.

I wasnt pointing you out as an **** kisser or any other person in particular just the fact that it does happen with both the mods and with old timers. Many a time I have seen someone post something that was clearly wrong and or out of line and once the poster has been jumped by someone about what they posted a stream of people will jump to their aid even though the OP was clearly wrong in saying what he or she said. I understand the need to protect one of your buddies it's the natural thing to do but the pack mentality is part of the problem at CP amongst many other problems. And yes the bottom line is we all need to follow the rules and they need to be enforced or its just a waste of time having them.



REGARDS SNOW

wz2p7j

shawn474 wrote: »

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.

Shawn, you make a great point. When I look in the mirror all I see is a guy that just sits behind a keyboard. But I enjoy reading the posts here and joining in the discussion. I'm hoping some day to have some better equipment worth discussing and maybe coming to some of the events. Wish I could do some Karma but given the choice, I'll sell on eBay. Sorry, times are pretty tight.

Chris

hearingimpared

shawn474 wrote: »

Here's my personal opinion. This forum is the best place of its kind on the internet. I come here multiple times a day to research, shop, talk, comment, etc. Some people I like, others I don't. Some people I agree with, some I don't. Sometimes I let my emotions get the best of me, sometimes I don't. I am sure I am on some people's ignore list. Nobody has made it to mine yet.

All that said, I see the only simple solution (and I think it needs to be simple because if Al / Polk feel there is too much involved to change the way they want, they may as well just pull the plug), is to establish a new set of specific rules (or keep them the way they are now). If ANYONE posts outside of those rules, first time is a warning. Second time is a week ban. Third time a month and fourth time is permanent. We are all going to lose our tempers or be emotional on certain topics. But with the knowledge that there are consequences for EVERYONE, maybe we can all just learn to get along and accept that there are other veiwpoints and RESPECT each other-new or old, novice or expert, casual listener or hardcore enthusiast, etc.

Shawn

Good post Shawn. I agree with everything you've said.:)

snow

shawn474 wrote: »

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.

I hope my earlier posts were not taken as an oppurtunity to bash Mark, Russ or any one person in particular, my comments were meant to show that everyone here needs to change their behavior if this is going to work not only the old timers or the new comers.

To answer your question, No I have neither setup or attended Polkfest nor any other official gatherings. As far as Karma's go yes I have gave away Karma's, I have gaven money to members of this forum when they were down and out and have never asked for them to return it, I have donated to virtually every cause that has been promoted here, I have sold items behind the scenes to members here at well below their true value. I have gave away items for the cost of shipping and sometimes I have even paid the shipping, and will continue to do these things as long as CP is here. I do the same things in my local community as well, I feel that if one is fortunate enough to have more than others give back simple as that. Someday I may even need the help myself and if there is no givers then there will be no help. Does any of this make me a better person than someone who hasnt done these things? No it only makes me someone who as Demi said earlier someone who cares about this forum and the people here.

Now it may well be that many here have gaven far more than I have and to those that have Bravo good on you keep up the good work



REGARDS SNOW