An important message from the Management

raidersrule76

I myself had gotten out of control at times as well. I have let a few members here get under my skin just the same as a few of the others here.

I agree with a lot of the suggestions that have been made.

1. The time limit on being a member before you are able to sell makes sense to me.

2. More moderators might be needed and again not to say that Mark and Patrick are not doing a good job they just need a little help.

3. Figure out a way to stop the spam would be nice but it does get tossed out rather quickly.


Wish I had a little more imput but that about all I got for now.

I really hope that the forum doesn't shut down because unlike most members here this is the ONLY audio forum that I belong to and I really do not want to have to start over somewhere else as I have made some friends here and have gotten a lot of advice that I would have had to go at it alone and made way to many mistakes in the process.

I have also met a couple of the members in person and would like to get a chance to meet some more and with out this forum I would find that impossible to do.


Mark

treitz3

shawn474 wrote: »

Tom, give a good reason why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum?

For the same reason it has survived and prospered for so long. Friendship and a chance to move along in one's audio journey. Whether that be a question about a new Polk product or an existing one. The chance to meet folks that are in the same hobby. To talk and ask questions as to what would improve one's system from the folks who have been there and done that.

For Polk? I guess it would be for the marketing and knowledge base that exists here. With everything that Polk does to market their products, to shut down the forum would limit the feedback to said products. For instance, I currently have the IHT system. Without real feedback from real users in real situations? The "reviews" may not hold as much weight or may not be viewed at all due to no exposure.

So, to answer your question as to why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum? It may be to their own advantage, it may not. Who am I to know. I'm just thinking that the more exposure they have, the better off they will be.

What I do know is that this forum has many reasons to where folks join and stay. Those reasons vary from persona reasons to system reasons to friendship to basic camaraderie. 16 years alive and this forum has prospered? Who am I to say? That said, Let me put myself in my own place and tell you that honestly, I have no clue how to answer your question.

All I do know is that I appreciate the forum, the monies spent to keep it alive, the participation by all "paid" and not-paid members as well as the Corporate sponsorship shown in all of the Polkfest's. To throw all of that away at the expense of a few bad apples would be a complete shame.

nooshinjohn

On a selfish note... how the hell would I ever be able to upgrade the cross-overs on my SDA-SRS 2.3TL's and my LSi-15's without the knowlege found here?

shawn474

treitz3 wrote: »

For the same reason it has survived and prospered for so long. Friendship and a chance to move along in one's audio journey. Whether that be a question about a new Polk product or an existing one. The chance to meet folks that are in the same hobby. To talk and ask questions as to what would improve one's system from the folks who have been there and done that.

For Polk? I guess it would be for the marketing and knowledge base that exists here. With everything that Polk does to market their products, to shut down the forum would limit the feedback to said products. For instance, I currently have the IHT system. Without real feedback from real users in real situations? The "reviews" may not hold as much weight or may not be viewed at all due to no exposure.

So, to answer your question as to why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum? It may be to their own advantage, it may not. Who am I to know. I'm just thinking that the more exposure they have, the better off they will be.

What I do know is that this forum has many reasons to where folks join and stay. Those reasons vary from persona reasons to system reasons to friendship to basic camaraderie. 16 years alive and this forum has prospered? Who am I to say? That said, Let me put myself in my own place and tell you that honestly, I have no clue how to answer your question.

All I do know is that I appreciate the forum, the monies spent to keep it alive, the participation by all "paid" and not-paid members as well as the Corporate sponsorship shown in all of the Polkfest's. To throw all of that away at the expense of a few bad apples would be a complete shame.

Agreed and I say that if any or all of those reasons are important enough to keep this forum around, we all need to heed Al's message and start acting right without having a mod having to tell us to do so.

unc2701

Some changes that would clean things up without killing the board:

1)Turn off responses in the clubhouse. Want to share a link? Great, post it, any further discussion can happen via PM. Got a random question? Post it, people reply via PM.

1a)Add a few more sections as needed to fill in common Clubhouse threads(computer stuff comes to mind).

2)Ban cable threads, except reviews (see below). These turn into instant crapfests.

3)People can post reviews, but you have to use the review tag and a review thread has responses turned off, but the original poster may edit. Got a followup question about someone's review? PM and they can add more info. Someone has additional experience? PM the poster and they can add your remarks. Have a different experience that the original poster doesn't agree with? Write your own review.

4)Bring down the ban hammer with zero tolerance- and both parties get it. Not fair? Too bad. If someone starts **** and you respond, you are at risk. ...but not permanent- make it a 3-5day ban.

5)Bring down the ban hammer for the political CJ's. There's a few posters here whose political to audio post ratio is abhorrent. (1) will kill most of this, but this will take care of the rest of it.

6)Multiple short bans lead to a permanent ban.

disneyjoe7

treitz3 wrote: »

For the same reason it has survived and prospered for so long. Friendship and a chance to move along in one's audio journey. Whether that be a question about a new Polk product or an existing one. The chance to meet folks that are in the same hobby. To talk and ask questions as to what would improve one's system from the folks who have been there and done that.

For Polk? I guess it would be for the marketing and knowledge base that exists here. With everything that Polk does to market their products, to shut down the forum would limit the feedback to said products. For instance, I currently have the IHT system. Without real feedback from real users in real situations? The "reviews" may not hold as much weight or may not be viewed at all due to no exposure.

So, to answer your question as to why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum? It may be to their own advantage, it may not. Who am I to know. I'm just thinking that the more exposure they have, the better off they will be.

What I do know is that this forum has many reasons to where folks join and stay. Those reasons vary from persona reasons to system reasons to friendship to basic camaraderie. 16 years alive and this forum has prospered? Who am I to say? That said, Let me put myself in my own place and tell you that honestly, I have no clue how to answer your question.

All I do know is that I appreciate the forum, the monies spent to keep it alive, the participation by all "paid" and not-paid members as well as the Corporate sponsorship shown in all of the Polkfest's. To throw all of that away at the expense of a few bad apples would be a complete shame.

Tom, I feel you hit a nail here, it seems Polk Audio takes offense of those threads of products in which we feel are worthless at best. I myself haven't really joined in those type of threads, but understand the passion of this hobby knowing something is on the low side of things.

"So, to answer your question as to why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum? It may be to their own advantage, it may not. Who am I to know. I'm just thinking that the more exposure they have, the better off they will be."

This is the reason I also run a forum for a product which I build, without a forum where could users post questions of a product which is unique in the wild www?

AudioGenics

kab wrote: »

"..... within the next two weeks, the tone must change or I must force change. Do you want to be a part of this or do you want to exit? Those are the only choices. Maybe you have some concrete ideas. If so, I want to hear them now. If not, stay tuned. Change is coming.

Al

The manager accepts the status quo; the leader challenges it

count me in " to be a part of this ".... SUMMIT ?

....The greatest challenge for leaders is to know the difference between what has to be preserved and what needs to be changed......

Knucklehead

After all of the suggestions and opinions on the matter and change coming down the pipe, I really think what may happen is when a thread gets out of hand, members will be warned first then banned if the matter isnt resolved quickly. I think someone mentioned the 3 strike rule.......no matter what your standing in the community is. Just my .02.

cfrizz

shawn474 wrote: »

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with obeying the rules or behaving in a polite curteous manner on this forum. Nor should ANYONE be given a free pass for their bad bahavior even if they have done any of these things.

Nobody should have to prove they are worthy to be on here by being disrespected or hazed by members who have been on here longer & somehow they think they have the right to do this.

Al already pointed out the main root of the problem, but no one wants to acknowledge it.

Until the rest of those on here stop trying to give free passes to those who they consider "special" for their wrong behavior nothing will change until Polk management has no choice but to close this forum down before it does irrepairable damage to their corporate image.

Personally, I hope they permanantly ban those members before that happens.

Jetmaker737

Zero wrote: »

Good Lord people.. stop making this so complicated. The only reason why this forum is where its at now is because some members don't know when or how to STFU, and few measures are ever taken to encourage them to do so. You won't correct this by adding new circles, introducing orientation periods, or any other random band aide. You can correct it by moderating the site through trusted folks who are willing to volunteer their time to keep the ship that is Club Polk running smoothly. The rules are clear and solid, they just need enforced, thats all.

Thats it. It's that simple. The only real work involved is finding the right folks for the job and then determining a fair and fluid "behind the scenes" infrastructure.

Right on! It is that simple. Steveinaz also got it right in post #112. The offenders are very few in number. Once you decide to enforce the rules on them this place will clean up as people will think twice before posting something in anger.

TroyD

Wow, just WOW.

Hookay....I'm going to ad some thoughts here.

First of all, I LOVE this place. I've been here for more than a decade....half my adult life. I'm comfortable with saying that I've got about as much skin in this game as anyone else....and some of the garbage that's been going on truly embarrasses me.

Al, Mark, Russ and Patrick.....four guys I'd lay in front of a train for. Right out of the gate, what these guys have done and continue to do on a daily basis deserves our respect without having to qualify my remarks in any way.

Now, these are my thoughts....now, keep in mind, I'm not exempting myself from judgement here because I've been known to go scorched earth....

I really don't think we need 'more' moderation.....though, I think that getting Micah back into that role would be a good thing. He was outstanding at dealing with issues. The Hobbit Pimp RULES. I also think that making 'senior' members moderators is, generally, a BAD idea. I think that will only contribute to the problems.

Now, I'm a Senior NCO int he Air Force. There are some 'perks' that come along with that, however, I'm held to a higher standard of conduct than, say, an Airman Basic with 4 months in the military. I'm expected to set the example. Now, the Polk Forum isn't the military BUT there is a concept here that I think could apply......I think us 'senior' members need to get our collective **** together and hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct. Right now, I agree, I think that there are senior members who feel that this is there own personal playground and can do as they wish and the rest be damned. THAT is the main problem.

Trolls? C'mon, how frigging old are we and how long have we been on this forum. Trolls are a fact of life. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I've gone around with more than a few but I've done it for my own amusement, not under the guise of serving the 'greater good' in most cases (there are some notable exceptions....YOU know what they are, I know what they are....we don't need to argue the point). Trolls should be shown the door and folks that feed the trolls should be shown the door. Period.

Debate is ok. Spirited debate is ok. Arguing is ok.........we know what's not ok. The insults and so forth. I mean, c'mon. If you REALLY don't like someone....the IGNORE feature works wonders (except when someone quotes a damn post froms someone you are ignoring). Again, WE KNOW where the lines are....we just choose to ignore them most of the time. If it gets too heated, take it to PM or offline.

I really don't think that the wheel needs to be reinvented via the rules....we got rules. Enforce 'em. Swiftly and harshly. Start showing people the door and I assure you, change will be affected. Some of us will have to choose if we want to participate on the Polk Forum or not.

As far as applying the bans, I'd start out with, like, 3 days, then a week, then two weeks....and if you get banned a fourth time, well, you probably didn't learn your lesson and maybe don't need to come back. I also think that the ban should be between the Polk and the ban-ee. For me (and I doubt that I'm alone in this)...as I said, the mods here, I consider close friends.....I don't wish to be thrust in the middle of friends at odds.

Again, I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. The changes just need to come in the form of enforcing what is already in place in terms of the rules. Let the moderators moderate.

BDT

Lastly, to my fellow 'senior' members.....I haven't jumped ship, sold out...etc etc etc....I love you guys and all that but there are some of us that are contributing to the problem and it needs to quit.

lightman1

Do I have to start talking about audio?......

TroyD

If you guys want an example of how a 'senior' member should act....Ken Swauger. The guy has forgotten more about audio than most of us will EVER know....always gets his point accross and NEVER has to act like an out of character dick.

No, some of you are just curmudgeons by nature....but, that said....

BDT

Toolfan66

I think all AL want's us to do is get back to the basics, Treat everyone with respect, share our journey not only in audio and video but life as well. use the basic tools we have been given us to fillter out the trouble makers.

all in all the fourm is just fine the way it is. it really comes down to common sense people "use it".

I for one want the fourm to stay and it will if we all just carry our selfs as we should.

Now lets get back to our regular programing and jam some tunes!!!:D



Peace..:cool:

dkg999

I wonder if Al and the Polk marketing team know how valuable having 16 yrs of social marketing experience is? The insight they have is something every major company trying to get closer to their customers and drive interactive marketing is looking for. That said, I don't think the trend on this forum as it grows in relation to the expansion of the Polk brand and product line is much different than what other companies experimenting with social marketing are starting to experience.

I agree with Troy's comments. If you think you just have to respond and set someone straight .......... don't. I'm not sure what drives some people to always have to respond when good sense would say otherwise ................ restraint is your friend.

comfortablycurt

TroyD wrote: »

Wow, just WOW.

Hookay....I'm going to ad some thoughts here.

First of all, I LOVE this place. I've been here for more than a decade....half my adult life. I'm comfortable with saying that I've got about as much skin in this game as anyone else....and some of the garbage that's been going on truly embarrasses me.

Al, Mark, Russ and Patrick.....four guys I'd lay in front of a train for. Right out of the gate, what these guys have done and continue to do on a daily basis deserves our respect without having to qualify my remarks in any way.

Now, these are my thoughts....now, keep in mind, I'm not exempting myself from judgement here because I've been known to go scorched earth....

I really don't think we need 'more' moderation.....though, I think that getting Micah back into that role would be a good thing. He was outstanding at dealing with issues. The Hobbit Pimp RULES. I also think that making 'senior' members moderators is, generally, a BAD idea. I think that will only contribute to the problems.

Now, I'm a Senior NCO int he Air Force. There are some 'perks' that come along with that, however, I'm held to a higher standard of conduct than, say, an Airman Basic with 4 months in the military. I'm expected to set the example. Now, the Polk Forum isn't the military BUT there is a concept here that I think could apply......I think us 'senior' members need to get our collective **** together and hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct. Right now, I agree, I think that there are senior members who feel that this is there own personal playground and can do as they wish and the rest be damned. THAT is the main problem.

Trolls? C'mon, how frigging old are we and how long have we been on this forum. Trolls are a fact of life. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I've gone around with more than a few but I've done it for my own amusement, not under the guise of serving the 'greater good' in most cases (there are some notable exceptions....YOU know what they are, I know what they are....we don't need to argue the point). Trolls should be shown the door and folks that feed the trolls should be shown the door. Period.

Debate is ok. Spirited debate is ok. Arguing is ok.........we know what's not ok. The insults and so forth. I mean, c'mon. If you REALLY don't like someone....the IGNORE feature works wonders (except when someone quotes a damn post froms someone you are ignoring). Again, WE KNOW where the lines are....we just choose to ignore them most of the time. If it gets too heated, take it to PM or offline.

I really don't think that the wheel needs to be reinvented via the rules....we got rules. Enforce 'em. Swiftly and harshly. Start showing people the door and I assure you, change will be affected. Some of us will have to choose if we want to participate on the Polk Forum or not.

As far as applying the bans, I'd start out with, like, 3 days, then a week, then two weeks....and if you get banned a fourth time, well, you probably didn't learn your lesson and maybe don't need to come back. I also think that the ban should be between the Polk and the ban-ee. For me (and I doubt that I'm alone in this)...as I said, the mods here, I consider close friends.....I don't wish to be thrust in the middle of friends at odds.

Again, I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. The changes just need to come in the form of enforcing what is already in place in terms of the rules. Let the moderators moderate.

BDT

Lastly, to my fellow 'senior' members.....I haven't jumped ship, sold out...etc etc etc....I love you guys and all that but there are some of us that are contributing to the problem and it needs to quit.

I think that's all that really needs to be said on the subject.

Good post Troy.:)






That being said...I know that I haven't always been a perfect angel on this forum, but neither have most of us. I'll definitely be trying to conduct myself a little more kindly though from now on. I spend a lot of time on this forum, and have gotten tons of help, and made some great friends. I'd hate to lose the forum because we can't conduct ourselves like the adults that we(supposedly;)) are.

seeclear

lightman1 wrote: »

Do I have to start talking about audio?......

Yeah, that would help. AND stay out of our bushes...;)

PLEASE don't shut down this forum. I'd actually have to WORK at work, and then I'd have all this money laying around, and I wouldn't know what to spend it on. Nobody wants that.

I think more moderators would help, so Mark doesn't have as great a burden, but also so that there are more personalities at play in making warning/ban decisions. Nothing against Mark, but he is a personality, and he will rub some folks the wrong way, and that will just make his job harder. I've read some of the stuff he has written, and just scratched my head, and then when I learned he was a mod, I was just more baffled. I think there must be stuff that goes on behind the scenes, by PM or whatever, that we aren't all privy to that leads to some of that and leaves me, for one, wondering. I don't know Mark personally, and I think if I did I would like him, but more minds working on the problems of whom to warn and whom to ban I don't think would be a bad thing.

Other random thoughts--maybe a way to set up the report feature so that is a certain number of members report a post or thread, it gets automatically deleted, perhaps with some weighting factor for longevity or post count (or maybe not?); something like 3 reports by established members of a thread started by someone with fewer than 10 posts, and poof it is gone. We could eliminate the cell phone sellers and CCV crap ourselves that way.

Anyone else notice this is coming up right before the Atrium karma is supposed to end? I think Mark wants to keep them all for himself.:D:D:D

j/k...I should just shut up. Guess I won't be winning that karma.


Bottom line---Golden Rule, people.

I'm reading through this again before pushing "submit" and thinking I really don't want my post to sound like a Mark bashing session, maybe substitute "Mod" in there instead of Mark.

Huck344

wayne3burk wrote: »

I think people keep their tone civil in a Glock Forum --- because no one's ever used a Polk to kill someone with.

I threw an old polk driver across the room once and almost killed my wife's cat! Does that count?

In all seriousness, I really enjoy this forum and am grateful for everything that I have learned here. I hope that it continues on, because above all crap, etc, this place is such an awesome resource for great audio information!

hearingimpared

jimbo1421 wrote: »

I would like to see Polk Audio enforce the standards of civility that they keep in their own working environment. That PA has not done so already reflects badly on the company, to the point that I am reluctant to recommend Polk speakers to my friends. The forum here is too much of an embarrassment. By comparison, check out Vinyl Engine (http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/index.php). I have yet to encounter a flame war going on there.

There is one big structural difference between Vinyl Engine and Club Polk: there is no New Posts button. The forum just displays its categories. I just go to the areas that I am interested in and provocative threads are not pushed in my face, daring me to click on them just to see what kind of foolishness they contain. So my advice to Al would be to get rid of the New Posts button. I'll bet that would have a calming effect.

Jim

I love the New Post feature and use it always. If you don't want to use the feature because of how you feel then I suggest you don't use it as that is not the problem here.:)

tonyb

I believe the majority of members think we need more mods, if not just for dealing with issues on a more timely basis. Since this is a corporate forum, owned and operated, then they need to keep it up like you would the corporate building. Invest in the forum and it will pay dividends, do nothing and neglect it,and the forum will go away. Not excusing the members responsibility here either to help with that task. All I'm sayin' is it would be nice to see Polk enforce rules on a timely basis. You are what the public perceives you to be. The average Joe who just bought a Polk product,joins the club because he's jazzed,walks in the door and see's nothing but arguements,cussing, name calling, does none of us any good. I'm guilty myself, but I can count on one hand in ten years the times I lost my cool. Human nature,it's gonna happen. What didn't happen though was a mod sending me a PM to tell me to cool it or I'd be taking a vacation. If that happened more often, alot of the problems would go away. Any way you slice it, this forum thrives on the behavior of it's members and polk audio and in my honest opinion,both have let the forum down. We both can do better.

seeclear

tonyb wrote: »

I believe the majority of members think we need more mods, if not just for dealing with issues on a more timely basis. Since this is a corporate forum, owned and operated, then they need to keep it up like you would the corporate building. Invest in the forum and it will pay dividends, do nothing and neglect it,and the forum will go away. Not excusing the members responsibility here either to help with that task. All I'm sayin' is it would be nice to see Polk enforce rules on a timely basis. You are what the public perceives you to be. The average Joe who just bought a Polk product,joins the club because he's jazzed,walks in the door and see's nothing but arguements,cussing, name calling, does none of us any good. I'm guilty myself, but I can count on one hand in ten years the times I lost my cool. Human nature,it's gonna happen. What didn't happen though was a mod sending me a PM to tell me to cool it or I'd be taking a vacation. If that happened more often, alot of the problems would go away. Any way you slice it, this forum thrives on the behavior of it's members and polk audio and in my honest opinion,both have let the forum down. We both can do better.

I agree with Tony here, too. A well sent PM to offenders would go a long way.

Also, to the powers that be at Polk corporate, I think that if you are focussing more of your marketing on internet sales, and transitioning away from traditional B&M outlets, that having this portal on the internet is very valuable, FWIW.

disneyjoe7

Why not make Polk employees Mods, I sure during there day someone could check in and do whatever is needed. If there where say 20 employee mods running around I don't think a bad thread, or spam would stick around long.

Tony M

I want to add my .02 but I'm too tired from reading all 9 pages of others comments and ideas. I agreed with a alot of them!
I also like this forum alot. Great people here! I like Polk audio speakers alot. I'd hate to have to talk about them on another site. Good night.

hearingimpared

Keiko wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, Shawn, but the key word is "assist." I foresee some new ground rules being set. Having another mod or two might actually help with carrying the burden Mark and Patrick already have.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. Mark and Patrick have a lot on their plates besides being a mod. They can't be everywhere and read every post made. That is why I agree with adding a mod or two to help lift the burden off of those guys.

Shawn, I think it is the responsibility of any member mod or not to set the tone and example of how the forum flow is carried out for the sake of the new guys. We, you and I and other members who have been here for a while need to step up to the plate and set the example. Are we going to fail at that on occasion, ABSOLUTELY! As you said we all have human emotions and as I said I've let my fingers get way ahead of my brain and reacted rather than think about an issue. I've regretted letting my emotions get the best of me here at times but like you said it happens. I liked Al's thought about how and I'm parapharsing here, 10 goods don't get noticed, one bad is glaring. Which is going to be remembered? That too is human nature.:)

hearingimpared

shawn474 wrote: »

I guess that therein lies the problem to me. Are more moderators going to miraculously cause anyone to change the way that they are acting? I don't think so at all. I think the big thing Al was getting at that people need to self moderate and abide by the rules. If not, consequences are set. There might be more rules coming; who knows? But unless they are enforced to everyone on the forum and everyone rspects the forum rules and the privilege to be a member here, I don't see much changing. Maybe more moderators could more efficiently enforce? Is that what you're getting at?

By the way, I am sure I have violated some of the forum rules in this thread so I will accept any punishment that mods see fit.

Shawn the problem as I see it is a lack of consistency in enforcing the rules. One day it is okay to say or do this the next day someone else does it and it is and offence and breaking said rule.

I believe the reason for this is because Mark & Patrick are overwhelmed with the huge populous of this forum and can't keep up. That's not saying in any way they are incompetent, there is just too much going on all the time for two guys who have other duties to perform to keep up. That being said, I say give them a break and some help. Russ apparently has things going on in his life that don't allow him to moderate on a consistent basis so it's all left up to Mark. Patrick I'm sure has other corporate duties and relys heavily on Mark's ability to juggle. That is a lot to ask from one guy in the midst of a thousand members.

I really think they need some help to relieve some of the pressure and response time necessary to keep the flow of this club in a relatively straight course.

Toolfan66

We are adults here moderate yourself and use common sense. Really how hard does it need to be. Do we really need more mods? I think Pat and Mark keeps things cleaned up aroud here, and I am sure this has been a learning curve for them as well. The only way to grow and learn in life is to make A few mistakes along the way.

heiney9

I say bring -justin- back to help .

bruss

KAB you must dictate how the forums will be used. Start handing out extended bans until your forum is representing your company in the light you desire. 100 pages of debating is all you will get with this approach.

BottomFeeder

Ok, I just read through all 10 pages of comments & reduce my recommendations to two points:

1. Get more publicly known moderators.
2. Arm the moderators with clear behavioral guidelines (& publicly post them as well).

Post script: As difficult as this is for everyone, in the end, I believe that this discussion will be good for us all.

Serendipity

This place needs structure, and cooperation from everyone.