An important message from the Management

hearingimpared

Just to lighten things up . . . whewwwww I've just completed reading this entire thread and boy am I thoroughly exhusted.:D

On a serious note; it is really nice to see such a hot topic be civily discussed.:) There are prime examples in this thread how personalities can clash but is proof that it doesn't have to go down to street and gutter behavior.:)

Did I just say that?:D:eek:

fatchowmein

Please don't shut the Clubhouse down. It's taken too much work putting the Classical Music Exploration thread together.

Nice to see some of the names show up on this thread that I haven't see in awhile.

Serendipity

hearingimpared wrote: »

Just to lighten things up . . . whewwwww I've just completed reading this entire thread and boy am I thoroughly exhusted.:D

Same here. Been exhausted for the past few hours.

G'night guys

fossy

3. Get a few members help in moderating , doesn't have to be the same ones. Rotate it , ask the "sane" ones to help out. Give them restricted power to start out with; ability to lock a thread down , maybe a temporary ban etc etc. If they seem level headed after a few days or weeks , make them a full time moderator.Some ppl just let power go to their heads & end up making things worse.



2. This is a great forum. Just enforce the rules you have & it will get better.Wouldn't change a thing.



1.Treat everyone equally.


This is just a great place with so much knowledge amongst ALL the members. Never forget that you can learn something from every person.

A BIG thanks go out to everyone that is responsible for the forum.You guys/gals never get thanks enough for what you do. THANK YOU

cnh

dorokusai wrote: »

Just FYI, no one is paid to moderate here aside from Patrick C.

I suspected as much. I'm only through half this thread so I may be back...but I assume the moderating IS AN unstated ECONOMIC issue that POLK has trouble addressing. That's not surprising, few companies are unbelievably solvent at this point.

So the suggestion of more modes...introduces a 'voluntary' dimension.

On other matters. Some people like to use the Ignore feature...I NEVER do or will...why...this has something to do with my profession, enough said.

When I first arrived on this site I had a bit over a year's worth of posts on another...where my task was mostly to be 'helpful' to total newbs.

Arriving here...it took 'time' to learn the ropes and there are ropes here...many of us 'follow these rules, try to police ourselves and do our absolute best to WELCOME any new member and make him or her feel accepted and at home. That is essential.

Do we put our foot in our mouths now and then...sure! Others have said the same. If I say something that starts to take off on its own, I try to soften and retract it ASAP!

I too, do not agree. The forum was MUCH worse when I first arrived! Or maybe I just learned to negotiate it better and be offended less...I'm not a youngster anymore and like many of you I am a Professional (I am a highly educated professional).

All that education does not entitle me to get into pissing matches with anyone and there are a lot of people here who know a lot MORE than I do about audio. Let me stop to give an example...I have a decent post count, have been here less than two years and I still consider myself a NEWB...when I have 7000 posts and have been here 4-5 years...I'll still think of myself in the same way....I think that's a good way to go about things here.

Essentially, I've made some friends here. I try my 'best' to help those who know less than I, and to learn from those who know more, and have a little fun here and there.

This is what it's all about and 'anyone' can do it! I've seen some nasty posts recently but nothing much worse than when I first arrived.

Since Polk, really, can't 'afford' to moderate this site 24/7 it is beholden to 'us' to behave! Poor Doro, above...I feel for you Mark....a lot of responsibility in addition to your real 'work'.

I think, as a community, we can clean this place up. I KNOW WE CAN!

cnh

tonyb

Don't worry about Mark,those assless chaps came with a price tag.:p:)

Now lets have a group hug,tilt one back,and crank the tunes....um...no reach arounds Joe, my wife is starting to wonder why my **** smells like shrimp scampi.:D

danger boy

Serendipity wrote: »

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it!!

if only it were that easy for some people... unfortunately it's not that easy.

danger boy

3 strikes and you're out is silly.. most people laugh at a rule like that. that's to soft.

I say either one warning and you're out or zero tolerance. be firm and swift in dealing with trouble makers.

brettw22

I must have been away for 3 years because I've never known of Serendipity and I think he has something like 50 posts in this thread.......allow me to (belatedly) welcome you to the forum.......:D

The newbie and 'old timers' or 'inner circle' stuff will never go away......it's what people try to push when they feel slighted somehow even if that was never anyones intention on how they were responded to.

There seem to be a lot of people whose first reaction to reading something they don't agree with is a make a public whining event out of it. I almost get more bothered with the whining than I do the cause of their emotional deterioration. I don't come here to deal with 3yo's, but that's gotten to be how many people handle themselves. My issue here is the blatant overreaction that people have been allowed to get away with here when someone was making a joke, and not even a mean one, and they get lambasted because of it......that's not treating the newbie poorly.......it's just including them in the playful environment....(and yes, of course the 'degree' of the humor has a part to play in it).....but to throw the 'oldtimers hate newbies' flag every time is a bit overreaching...

While I understand the idea that bad press is bad press, from a consumer standpoint, I think it's weak at best to ever say something like 'I question my faith in Polks products because some meanie on their board said something to me.' I'm not excusing something negative being said, but it would seem that type of person was LOOKING for something to gripe about, so any little thing is what they'll cling onto.......

3 strikes is absolutely too much......this type of thread from Al has happened before, and it's happened again......that to me says that the gentle approach trying to encourage people to act their age isn't working.....time to clean house IMO.

Norm Apter

Zero wrote: »

This one is easy... Add 3 or 4 new moderators. The only challenge at this point would be finding those who have a reputation of being even keeled, are not prone to emotional outbursts, have a clean track record, and so on and so forth.

I've only been here a little under two years, but three veterans spring to my mind immediately:

Reeltrouble
SteveinAz
dangerboy

Of course, I can only speak of the time I've been here, but during this period they seem to be extremely fair, maintained an interest in the wellbeing of the forum, and consistently stay above the fray of childish friction (even if they have strong opinions on things like tubes ). Also, I'm not even sure if any of them would want limited moderating duties but I think any or all would do a great job if CP chose to go that route and if they were so inclined.

hearingimpared

I've given my opinion about how I think to improve this situation. However I would like to address a few things that have been said. First off we don't want to make this a dry, lifeless, sterile environment. Keeping a sense of this being a club and a family like atmosphere is one of the great things that differentiates this forum for all the others.

Disabling threads in the Clubhouse after an initial post or link is posted kills the spirit of having a discussion and comraderie on the topic rendered. Zero tolerance would also kill this spirit especially taking into account that new folks may not know the flow or ropes of the forum and could easily be booted for a perceived inappropriate post. I've been here four years and many many people including myself have broken the rules in one manner or another. This place would be a ghost town if zero tolerance, one strike and your out applied.

I think Al bringing this to the suface AGAIN in the manner inwhich he's done it makes it very clear that we MUST clean up our acts and work together or we could loose the forum altogether. I really think this time people are going to stand up and take notice and do what's right.

Enforcement of the rules equally and consistently as well as adhering to them are absolutely necessary. The blame the "old timers" thing isn't quite fair in that they are indeed human and make mistakes but for the most part lead by example. It is the responsibility of all of us who know the ropes here to set that example, whether it be helping newbies, responding or not responding to trolls, stepping in to break up an argument or fight to diffuse it before it gets out of hand, being respectful in replies to posts, etc . . . this would help the IMHO overworked, overwhelmed mods, out immensely. Instead of having four eyes keeping watch, there would be many many more keeping things in line.

Don't be so fast to report a post! Take the initiative, explain to the offending person the rules and make clear what they did wrong. Reporting posts all the time just makes the mods have to do "investigations" which takes up more of their productive time and the investigations can be shown to be ineffective as to making a proper call because the what lead to the problem may be 20 posts up and can cast a person making a reply in the wrong light. That is not to mention it is sometimes hard to get the gist of what a poster is trying to relate without placing half a dozen smiley faces in their post.

As Al said, meeting a person face to face doesn't always equate to how their persona is perceived in a single post. That's not quite what he said but I'm throwing that out there.

To use Raife's method of analogies. There is a zero tolerance rule in my son's middle school. One day, he saw on school grounds what looked like a pen knife. Knowing that I collect pen knives, he grabbed it and put it in his pocket to bring home to me, not realizing the possible consequences of zero tolerance if he were to get caught with the one inch pen knife. He actually forgot about the fact that he had it and five minutes before the final bell rang, he shifted in his seat and the pen knife fell out and a student to the right of him saw it and reported it. He was first suspended from school for two weeks, after a school board hearing, dispite the lack of malice he was expelled, then arrested, finger printed, mug shot, and charged with two felony counts. Count one; carrying a concealed deadly weapon, Count two; carrying a concealed deadly weapon in a not weapon zone.

This is a 12 year old boy who doesn't know his **** from a hole in the ground who has never been in trouble before but has a propensity to pick things up off the ground that he finds as a "surpise of the day." We have to go to court this Wednesday with a public defender to face these serious charges. That could if found guilty affect the rest of his life for one stupid lapse of thought.

Sounds rediculous doesn't it? But it is true and just goes to show how zero tolerance can make things worse than what they are.

Sure we are all adults but zero tolerance just causes tension and a sense of distrust and unforgiving attitudes.

george daniel

cfrizz wrote: »

THANK YOU! Everyone is always trying to find someone else to blame rather than taking responsibility for THEIR own behavior.

Use the ignore & report this post features more rather than the reply to this post button first.

Wow,, I just re-read your first paragraph,, you are right,,,pretty darn good advice--thanks. :cool:

Fireman32

I think alot of people brought up good points but Cathy said it best. We need to take responsibility for our own behavior.

cfrizz

TroyD wrote: »

Wow, just WOW.

Hookay....I'm going to ad some thoughts here.

First of all, I LOVE this place. I've been here for more than a decade....half my adult life. I'm comfortable with saying that I've got about as much skin in this game as anyone else....and some of the garbage that's been going on truly embarrasses me.

Al, Mark, Russ and Patrick.....four guys I'd lay in front of a train for. Right out of the gate, what these guys have done and continue to do on a daily basis deserves our respect without having to qualify my remarks in any way.

Now, these are my thoughts....now, keep in mind, I'm not exempting myself from judgement here because I've been known to go scorched earth....

I really don't think we need 'more' moderation.....though, I think that getting Micah back into that role would be a good thing. He was outstanding at dealing with issues. The Hobbit Pimp RULES. I also think that making 'senior' members moderators is, generally, a BAD idea. I think that will only contribute to the problems.

Now, I'm a Senior NCO int he Air Force. There are some 'perks' that come along with that, however, I'm held to a higher standard of conduct than, say, an Airman Basic with 4 months in the military. I'm expected to set the example. Now, the Polk Forum isn't the military BUT there is a concept here that I think could apply......I think us 'senior' members need to get our collective **** together and hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct. Right now, I agree, I think that there are senior members who feel that this is there own personal playground and can do as they wish and the rest be damned. THAT is the main problem.

Trolls? C'mon, how frigging old are we and how long have we been on this forum. Trolls are a fact of life. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I've gone around with more than a few but I've done it for my own amusement, not under the guise of serving the 'greater good' in most cases (there are some notable exceptions....YOU know what they are, I know what they are....we don't need to argue the point). Trolls should be shown the door and folks that feed the trolls should be shown the door. Period.

Debate is ok. Spirited debate is ok. Arguing is ok.........we know what's not ok. The insults and so forth. I mean, c'mon. If you REALLY don't like someone....the IGNORE feature works wonders (except when someone quotes a damn post froms someone you are ignoring). Again, WE KNOW where the lines are....we just choose to ignore them most of the time. If it gets too heated, take it to PM or offline.

I really don't think that the wheel needs to be reinvented via the rules....we got rules. Enforce 'em. Swiftly and harshly. Start showing people the door and I assure you, change will be affected. Some of us will have to choose if we want to participate on the Polk Forum or not.

As far as applying the bans, I'd start out with, like, 3 days, then a week, then two weeks....and if you get banned a fourth time, well, you probably didn't learn your lesson and maybe don't need to come back. I also think that the ban should be between the Polk and the ban-ee. For me (and I doubt that I'm alone in this)...as I said, the mods here, I consider close friends.....I don't wish to be thrust in the middle of friends at odds.

Again, I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. The changes just need to come in the form of enforcing what is already in place in terms of the rules. Let the moderators moderate.

BDT

Lastly, to my fellow 'senior' members.....I haven't jumped ship, sold out...etc etc etc....I love you guys and all that but there are some of us that are contributing to the problem and it needs to quit.

And here you have it folks. The straight up TRUTH from a well liked, respected "old timer" who knows exactly what & WHO & where the problem lies & isn't afraid to say it.

Here is a MAN who knows how to take responsibility & most importantly act with the MATURITY of his AGE.

That a VP of management has to come on here to tell 20, 30, 40, 50,+ year old adults to stop acting like they are 16 years old is NOT something to be proud of, and should not have had to happen.

Well stated Troy, thank you for having the guts to state it so clearly. Hopefully those freinds of yours who are part of the problem won't give you too much grief for simply stating the truth.

John30_30

George Grand wrote: »

The "Ignore" feature is a tool provided by the management, which over the last couple of years has allowed me to peacefully co-exist here. That is my opinion, I could be wrong. I think more people should employ it.

It was do or die, as Al had just had a personal, face-to-face "discussion" with about 10 of us "old-timers" about this very problem, almost two years ago at PolkFest.

There are other features which can be programmed into certain forum software, like spam-marking (for mods and trusted power users) which removes the post and maybe leaves a message why, maybe not. That way, people don't even have to report spammers.

Enough posters having another poster on ignore can even trigger that person universally ignored as a troll, same as a ban.....again removing the responsibility from the mods to have to be the heavy.

Post-rating, not just a thumbs-up or down icon, but which affects the posts realtime visibility. That setting would be individually tweaked much like Ignore Feature, to each person's taste. Example: 5 Thumbs-downs can make a post disappear if the individual sets their limit to 5.
That sort of thing helps the community police itself (instead of the periodic Come-to-Jesus thread like this where everyone repents, gets all holy and saved for 2 weeks, then goes back to carousin') and takes time & pressure off mods.


And in summation, I would like to say "Don't taze me, bro!"

disneyjoe7

I'm sure there's something that could be done to prevent spammers from posting in vBulletin

BAD ASP

I've been here for a couple of years and my post count is low for a variety of reasons. Mostly that I am a father of 5 and went into business for myself at 54. A lot of things for me to deal with and enjoy but not a lot of time to become a forum expert.
What I do know is this. The reason I joined Club Polk is pretty simple. I did not know Polk from Kef, Infinity, JBL etc when I bought my first speakers. I went to a United Audio in theChicago area looking to buy my first set of "good" speakers and sat down in their audio room to audition speakers. I kept coming back to the Polks 3.1tls. I like the 1.2s and the 2.3's but my wife and I did not have a big enough space so I "settled" on them. That was in 1989 I believe. I have always preferred the sound of these over many others and have kept them and even added a number of other Polk flavors. I actively recommend them to all that ask. I have introduced many folks to the quality of the sda sound and noone has criticized the sound.
Now to the why of joining the club.... it was because I enjoyed reading the experiences of folks that listened to these speakers and SDA's had the same effect on them as on me on took the time to write about it. I enjoyed that over most anything. I also have enjoyed some minimal participation but have stayed out of the various frayes because its easy to just ignore and move on to things that interest me here. It would be a shame to lose this forum because of BS trollers or some folks lack of self restraint. The easiest thing to do on the internet is be a bully and a reactionary. The internet provides many the bully pulpit to push their own vitriol. Unfortunately it seems there is no way to avoid these folks on these forums. What I can encourage us all to do is not join in on the posts of those that look to harm us. If we collectively see a thread that seems to be going "south" just don't contribute. Police yourself. We SHOULD read the posts so that we can collectively identify the intruders and interlopers but just stay out of it... protect our investment in this club. I enjoy all of you and have come to trust your words to guide me through the quagmire of false advertising and hype. I am now enjoying the sound of a tube pre and SS amp for music. I would have never gone there if not for ya'll, and it does add enjoyment to my life. One of my favorite lines in the movie " We were Soldiers" is when Sam Elliot walks up to a wounded soldier, while their position is being overrun by the enemy, hands him a ready 45 and tells him to "defend yourself". Well folks the mods have handed us the proverbial 45 and told us to defend ourselves.... Just my 2c

huggies

I dont post much, but I've been around awhile and I read the forum daily. Here's the main things that I think need to be implemented:

1. The FleaMarket, 25 post rule is not working and actually adds to the forum problems. Newbies run up their post count with bs posts and other members respond with snide comments. Changing the requirement to a 3 month membership, or whatever is decided, would clear up a lot of trash on the forums.

2. I've been to several other forums where until your motivations for posting have been deemed honorable, your posts need to be approved via review. Might take a little more man hours, but it keeps the riff raff out from the get go.

3. Enforce the existing rules evenly on ALL, new and veteran members alike.

disneyjoe7

huggies wrote: »

1. The FleaMarket, 25 post rule is not working and actually adds to the forum problems. Newbies run up their post count with bs posts and other members respond with snide comments. Changing the requirement to a 3 month membership, or whatever is decided, would clear up a lot of trash on the forums.

Best idea I've heard yet.

amulford

Oh brother...

I have to chew on this for awhile, but I must say this.

We are, for the most part, a community of adults. If you can't act the role, then suffer the consequences...

vc69

Wow... I'm pretty new and I gotta say I have had good experience here. I have "internet thick" skin though. Aside from one particular instance which was handled via PM, I have really enjoyed being a "part of" here.

Let's hope this place doesn't go the way of Dodo.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'm also in agreement on the time limit in the flea market. Make it a minimum post count and a minimum time limit, maybe at least a month.

That's not to help the flea market so much as to prevent new people from joining just to sell something, that right there is where alot of the fights start out.

jimbo1421

vc69 wrote: »

Wow... I'm pretty new and I gotta say I have had good experience here. I have "internet thick" skin though.

But this forum has been set up by Polk Audio to promote the sale, use and support of their products. I am sure that they do not want to limit their customer base to people with "internet thick" skins.

Jim

MillerLiteScott

I like this place and it is usually my goto forum whenever I get on the interwebs.

I have met a lot of exceptional people on/from this board and made many good friends. The availability of audio experience here is second to none. I have not had any issues personally on this board ( or any board for that matter ) and I usually just ignore the flaming threads. It is just the internet but I realize this reflects on Polk Audio the Manufacturer and if we as a group would like to support Polk Audio and this forum it is up to the members to act like adults.

I agree we need to have some level of moderation and the rules need to be implemented swiftly and fairly so issues can be nipped at the bud. The 25 post to sell stuff needs to be changed to be a higher number or a length of time to stop the newbees just signing up to sell stuff.

I would like to thank the Polk Audio, the many members that have helped me in my audio journey and I look forward to many more years of this comaradery. (sp)

MLS

Scott

raidersrule76

Ok I gotta add one more thing...... If it wasn't for this forum and all those here I would not be rockin out to my LSI 9's right now thinking could I have really found better for the price. I have to say that I love every single one of the sets of Polks that I have owned and I do know how some people on other audio forums have something against them.

tommyboy

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I'm also in agreement on the time limit in the flea market. Make it a minimum post count and a minimum time limit, maybe at least a month.

That's not to help the flea market so much as to prevent new people from joining just to sell something, that right there is where alot of the fights start out.

Everyone has been saying this since I started here four years ago (and probably long before), and nothing has changed... Maybe this little debacle (that I somehow missed all of) will finally change their minds

I have to say though, someone putting //// for 25 posts and then try to sell something was kinda amusing;)

disneyjoe7

Have I stated I love this place?

-justin-

heiney9 wrote: »

I say bring -justin- back to help .

LOL! No thanks!

~J

comfortablycurt

As others have mentioned(and I've personally mentioned numerous times in the past), if there's going to be any kind of a change in the FM rules, it can't reflect someones post count.

If you change it to a minimum of 100 posts to sell something, all we'll have is people making 100 junk posts to sell their stuff. Would it make a few people decide to go somewhere else? Yes, but not all of them.

The way I see it, if the FM rules are to be changed, it should be both a 25 post minimum, plus at least 3 months of membership.

That being said, I think the FM rules are absolutely fine in every single feasible way. When the people come in and spam it up to get to 25...most of us aren't going to buy from them anyway. They are either promptly taken care of by moderation, or their items get shown no interest, the for sale ad fades away, and they never come back anyway.


I honestly do not understand why so many people have so many issues with the flea market area here. I've had nothing but stellar experiences dealing there, and I don't think there's a single thing that needs to be changed about it.

shack

-justin- wrote:

LOL! No thanks!

~J

You're smarter than I ever gave you credit for.