Amazingly disappointed
Comments
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1. We'll just have to disagree on that one. Half the listening public doesn't even acknowledge the existence of "burn-in" and I think the half that does believe in it would tend to side with me regarding the relatively subtle nature of the changes.
2. Have you compared them side by side? Nope. How do you know how they compare. Your impression is entirely based on reputation and conjecture. The OP has actually heard them both.
3. The What HiFi review IS very pertinent because many response to the OP write him off as being an ignorant newbie. I think most people will agree that the What HiFi review staff are NOT ignorant newbies. So it's possible that the OPs assessment is correct as it does concur with certain seasoned audio reviewers.
4. Same answer as number 1.
5. LOL. Again, I don't believe burn-in can be so dramatic that an amp will appear to actually be defective it sounds so bad prior to full burn-in. But apparently you do. Again, we differ.
6. Possible? Please...
That's pure BS ONE guy made an accusation of the OP having an alterior motive the rest of us have been trying to educate the OP.
So you don't believe in burn-in? Why then do manufacturers include in their manuals that a burn-in period is necessary? They designed it, they know what components they used to build it, they've tested it, etc, etc....
"Seasoned Audio Reviewers" with an agenda.
I've experienced burn-in with every new product I've purchased, including cables and the difference from out-of-the-box to after burn-in is NOT subtle. -
Sounds like the Krell was defective. Having to dial it up to 80% for sound is very suspect.
Gordon2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
Sounds like the Krell was defective. Having to dial it up to 80% for sound is very suspect.
Gordon
Or a massive impedance mismatch between the pre and the amp. If that's the case then no amount of burn-in is going to fix that particular problem. It may tone down a bit like having to turn the volume up to 60%. I have the same problem with all my front ends having an impedance mismatch with my integrated. With my TT/phono pre, I sometimes, depending on the LP have to turn the volume up to 3:00 before getting the proper volume and SQ I like. -
hearingimpared wrote: »Or a massive impedance mismatch between the pre and the amp.
It's an integrated, so scratch that._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
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SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
hearingimpared wrote: »That's pure BS ONE guy made an accusation of the OP having an alterior motive the rest of us have been trying to educate the OP.
So you don't believe in burn-in? Why then do manufacturers include in their manuals that a burn-in period is necessary? They designed it, they know what components they used to build it, they've tested it, etc, etc....
"Seasoned Audio Reviewers" with an agenda.
I've experienced burn-in with every new product I've purchased, including cables and the difference from out-of-the-box to after burn-in is NOT subtle.
I never said if I believe in burn in or not. I merely stated that burn in won't turn "crap" into "wow". I'll stand by that. I also think that 99% of manufacturers would agree with my position on that. I've never heard a manufacturer state something like "prior to completed burn-in, the sound will be dramatically different and so poor the listener may be convinced the product is defective." The idea that burn-in has that dramatic an impact on the sound quality is absurd. I've read dozens if not hundreds of reviews and burn-in is almost always described as a subtle change.2 Channel
NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4 -
He has it working with the UPA-2 but not the Krell.
And? That doesn't have anything to do with the impedence mismatch scenario.
Nonwithstanding, the Krell is an integrated.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
I never said if I believe in burn in or not. I merely stated that burn in won't turn "crap" into "wow". I'll stand by that. I also think that 99% of manufacturers would agree with my position on that. I've never heard a manufacturer state something like "prior to completed burn-in, the sound will be dramatically different and so poor the listener may be convinced the product is defective." The idea that burn-in has that dramatic an impact on the sound quality is absurd. I've read dozens if not hundreds of reviews and burn-in is almost always described as a subtle change.
I've had a few pieces that the sound quality was pretty dramatic. One very recently, as in in the lat two days.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
I can attest to burn in being quite real and undeniably dramatic. Not on all amps I have owned, but here's an example.I've never heard a manufacturer state something like "prior to completed burn-in, the sound will be dramatically different......The idea that burn-in has that dramatic an impact on the sound quality is absurd. I've read dozens if not hundreds of reviews and burn-in is almost always described as a subtle change.
The Odyssey Stratos SS amplifier. It's even stated in the Owner's manual as to what you should expect to hear. I heard the changes even before I read the manual and what he describes is what I heard to a "t".
That said, burn in is not absurd. Manufacturers have stated it and most of the time, changes will be subtle. However, there are amps out there that apparently you haven't auditioned that will have a dramatic change during the burn in process.
The Stratos aforementioned even has a three day warm up after being unplugged. There are various stages the amp will go through in a 3 day period after it is unplugged and allowed to cool that can make it go from decent, to sounding like ****, to sonic bliss on day three. I have observed it too many times as I had the amp for about two years in various rig setups.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
BS. See above post. Damn, you guys need to get your ears on some more gear before you go shooting off at the mouth.I agree Jax, same with cables, they won't turn "crap" into "wow" either.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
concealer404 wrote: »I've had a few pieces that the sound quality was pretty dramatic. One very recently, as in in the lat two days.
One thing that I've noticed about the "burn-in" process that I find suspicious and has never been answered by "burn-in" believers is, if burn-in is changing the sound of all this equipment, why is that "burn-in" always, 100% of time makes the sound better? Seems like since this mysterious process that is the subject of much conterversy exists, the change would sometimes be for the worse. I've yet to ever read a review that stated "sounded fantastic right out of the box, but after burn-in the sound quality degraded."
I guess the manufacturers are just so good at designing for burn-in, that they get it right everytime. Always makes it better, never worse. Seems odd though...
Still not saying I'm not a believer. It definately makes sense for speakers at the very least.2 Channel
NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4 -
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I never said if I believe in burn in or not. I merely stated that burn in won't turn "crap" into "wow". I'll stand by that. I also think that 99% of manufacturers would agree with my position on that. I've never heard a manufacturer state something like "prior to completed burn-in, the sound will be dramatically different and so poor the listener may be convinced the product is defective." The idea that burn-in has that dramatic an impact on the sound quality is absurd. I've read dozens if not hundreds of reviews and burn-in is almost always described as a subtle change.
Well you can read all you want but it is not the same as experience.:) -
One thing that I've noticed about the "burn-in" process that I find suspicious and has never been answered by "burn-in" believers is, if burn-in is changing the sound of all this equipment, why is that "burn-in" always, 100% of time makes the sound better? Seems like since this mysterious process that is the subject of much conterversy exists, the change would sometimes be for the worse. I've yet to ever read a review that stated "sounded fantastic right out of the box, but after burn-in the sound quality degraded."
I guess the manufacturers are just so good at designing for burn-in, that they get it right everytime. Always makes it better, never worse. Seems odd though...
Still not saying I'm not a believer. It definately makes sense for speakers at the very least.
Agreed; this is what I never understood. I can understand break in for things with moving parts, so speakers makes sense. Car engines make sense, it being metal and the constant temp changes and friction and such. But a solid state amplifier with no moving parts? How can burn in really affect it that much. There are temp changes internally, yes, but can it really make THAT much of a difference? I noticed my NAD integrated sounds a bit better after it warms up, but I didn't notice any difference in sound as the days went by using it on a regular basis; sounded great out of the box. Eh, not going to say its not true, since I am pretty new to audio, but I've just never experienced it.- Jeremy
Amps: Jolida FX-10, NAD 3045, NAD C320BEE, Sansui G-9700
Speakers: Polk Monitor 7A's, KEF Reference 104aB
Sources: ProJect Debut Carbon, Sonos streaming FLAC -
Agreed; this is what I never understood. I can understand break in for things with moving parts, so speakers makes sense. Car engines make sense, it being metal and the constant temp changes and friction and such. But a solid state amplifier with no moving parts? How can burn in really affect it that much. There are temp changes internally, yes, but can it really make THAT much of a difference? I noticed my NAD integrated sounds a bit better after it warms up, but I didn't notice any difference in sound as the days went by using it on a regular basis; sounded great out of the box. Eh, not going to say its not true, since I am pretty new to audio, but I've just never experienced it.
When you keep moving up the chain, you will. -
One thing that I've noticed about the "burn-in" process that I find suspicious and has never been answered by "burn-in" believers is, if burn-in is changing the sound of all this equipment, why is that "burn-in" always, 100% of time makes the sound better? Seems like since this mysterious process that is the subject of much conterversy exists, the change would sometimes be for the worse. I've yet to ever read a review that stated "sounded fantastic right out of the box, but after burn-in the sound quality degraded."
I guess the manufacturers are just so good at designing for burn-in, that they get it right everytime. Always makes it better, never worse. Seems odd though...
Still not saying I'm not a believer. It definately makes sense for speakers at the very least.
I've actually had that happen to me with a couple pieces of gear. It could also be attributed to the "wow" factor wearing off, though.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
The Krell website and numerous reviews refer to this Krell integrated as having "input trim controls" It could be that these came from the factory turn to minimal gain and need to be reset (going along with the thought that this amp should do "better" at 80% than is being described)integrated w/DAC module Gryphon Diablo 300
server Wolf Alpha 3SX
phono pre Dynamic Sounds Associates Phono II
turntable/tonearms Origin Live Sovereign Mk3 dual arm, Origin Live Enterprise Mk4, Origin Live Illustrious Mk3c
cartridges Miyajima Madake, Ortofon Windfeld Ti, Ortofon
speakers Rockport Mira II
cables Synergistic Research Cables, Gryphon VPI XLR, Sablon 2020 USB
rack Adona Eris 6dw
ultrasonic cleaner Degritter -
Speaker burn in, yes it can happen and can be verified through measurments as the T/S parameters change(and it is still debatable if those changes are percivable by the human ear). Soild state electronics AFAIK have not been shown through credible 3rd party measurements to require a burn in process. I've experince what I believed were audiable changes but after measuring the amplifier it shows the same as when first measured. Its more than likely that your ears get used to the sound over a period of time hence why many manufactures support the burn-in process. Manufactures number one goal is to make money, I would take most of what they say with a grain of salt.
So in other words, go with what you like. If within the returnable time period you still don't like the krell, send it back. You really have nothing to lose either way. -
Most importantly have fun with it and try out different settings and/or crossover points if you are using a sub as well as different kinds of music.
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My amps sounded thin out of the box. It took about 75-100 hours until they opened up. What is interesting, they have to warm up for about 30 minutes before they sound full. This warm up period even happened with the SS pre I had so I know it's not the tubes in the new pre.
Gordon2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
My amp sounds TERRIBLE for the first 45 minutes or so, then it starts to open up. This is why i just leave it on, so i don' have to plan ahead if i want to listen and not be infuriated by the crap that comes out of the system for the better part of the first cd.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Most preamps and amps have passive components in the signal path which need to break in, it's not as simple as a speaker's surround or spider breaking in."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Speaker burn in, yes it can happen and can be verified through measurments as the T/S parameters change(and it is still debatable if those changes are percivable by the human ear). Soild state electronics AFAIK have not been shown through credible 3rd party measurements to require a burn in process. I've experince what I believed were audiable changes but after measuring the amplifier it shows the same as when first measured. Its more than likely that your ears get used to the sound over a period of time hence why many manufactures support the burn-in process. Manufactures number one goal is to make money, I would take most of what they say with a grain of salt.
So in other words, go with what you like. If within the returnable time period you still don't like the krell, send it back. You really have nothing to lose either way."If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." Daniel R. von Recklinghausen
Great quote Mike! -
Matt, you don't need a measurement to know what's going on. Your ears are the only tool required.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I'm a nervous buyer and super critical of my new components, waiting for burn in (whether valid or not) calms me down so I can get used to the new sound and be happy...
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My amps sounded thin out of the box. It took about 75-100 hours until they opened up. What is interesting, they have to warm up for about 30 minutes before they sound full. This warm up period even happened with the SS pre I had so I know it's not the tubes in the new pre.
Gordonconcealer404 wrote: »My amp sounds TERRIBLE for the first 45 minutes or so, then it starts to open up. This is why i just leave it on, so i don' have to plan ahead if i want to listen and not be infuriated by the crap that comes out of the system for the better part of the first cd.
This is because the amp, pre-amp, etc needs time to bias the output tranny's so they are working in their "sweet spot". My Aleph takes about an hour and you can hear it change.............from closed in, muffled, lack of dynamics, to very open, dynamic, precise, sweet, 3D, etc.....it's a fact.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Yeah, that and the fact that i'm working with 20+ year old caps in my amp.
The pre i've got doesn't really take any time at all to "warm up."I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
My pre didn't come with a power switch because it's supposed to be on all the time. The manufacturer purposely designed it that way. I spoke to an engineer (quite a few times) of the company and he recommends that if I ever need to shut it down, when powering it up it would take 45 minutes to stabilize. I've noticed that after shutdown, (thunder storms or power outages) I've found it sounds best after being left on for two days.
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I should research that... mine has a switch, and a standby button on the front. I wonder if putting it on standby keeps it "primed," if you will.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Yeah. He and selkec aren't real subtle.
Amusingly, even on that hilarious forum, there's still people telling him to let the Krell break in. Imagine that.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Sounds like he fits right in over at the Emo-lounge. What a newbie tool, giving a new piece of gear about an hour before deciding. He;s not at all serious about this hobby. No skin off my back.............just frustrating when someone comes here for opinions, advice and experience and totally dismisses what he's given. He belongs over there.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
