Amazingly disappointed

heiney9

Some of you guys shouldn't be in this hobby if your going to dismiss a brand new piece in a matter of hours. No one says you have to like something in this hobby but if you don;t give it a fair chance to perform properly then you might as well just get a receiver a couple of inexpensive speakers and sub and call it a day.

Everyone in this thread, with the exception of one or two, gave you great solid advice from experience no less about what to do, not as a suggestion but as a fact of why you were experiencing these problems and you completely dismissed it.

Like I said maybe this hobby isn't for you.

H9

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

I'm embarrassed for you.

Pretty much sums it up right there.

Polkitup2

ls7z06 wrote: »

Wow. I am not really sure what I am supposed to be baiting here. I simply stated my experience. Like I said, maybe the unit was defective. I even had to turn the unit up to about 80% volume to even be able to hear at a reasonable level. I hear what you all say about break in. The rep I talked to also said I needed to give it 200 hours of break in too. I am not that patient I guess. Your Ferrari comparison does not work. That would be more like your new Ferrai cannot go over 30mph for the first 30,000 miles. Then it will go 200mph. hmmm. Hard to believe that.

I am really no more loyal to the Emotiva brand name than I am to anything else. I originally bought their products because they were attractively priced. Now I am also figuring out they work pretty darn well compared to more expensive equipment too. My emoette comment was meant in jest as I believe that is what people call folks that like their products. Sorry if that upset anybody. But....Jeez! Get a life. Don't get so emotional over the brand name of a freakin stereo amplifier!! And why are you jumping all over me for sharing my own experience??

I just have a hard time paying that much for a product and then it sucks when you turn the key. And no. You can't blame my wires, speakers, or anything else. They are the same for both amps. Even my teenage daughter said "dad, that sounds terrible. Hook your old amp back up." Would seem strange to me if my reply had been.... now dear, we are going to listen to this horrible thing for 2 or 3 weeks hoping it will improve with time.

So it's over and out for me for me on this thread. Sorry if I offended any nut jobs.

While the Krell does need time to break in to get the best sound quality, I don't believe break-in time would affect the volume levels obtained. If you had to go to 80% of the possible volume setting to get any volume, something has to either be wrong with the unit or how it's connected.

Erik Tracy

I'm all about giving equipment a fair chance - but purely from a transaction point of view - what if, even after letting ANY device "burn in" you go past the reasonable time allowed to return an item from the dealer you bought it from?

Suppose the dealer won't take back the amp after x hours?

Now you're stuck and I suppose you could rationalize keeping it?

Tony M

ls7z06 wrote: »

Wow. I am not really sure what I am supposed to be baiting here. I simply stated my experience. Like I said, maybe the unit was defective. I even had to turn the unit up to about 80% volume to even be able to hear at a reasonable level. I hear what you all say about break in. The rep I talked to also said I needed to give it 200 hours of break in too. I am not that patient I guess. Your Ferrari comparison does not work. That would be more like your new Ferrai cannot go over 30mph for the first 30,000 miles. Then it will go 200mph. hmmm. Hard to believe that.

I am really no more loyal to the Emotiva brand name than I am to anything else. I originally bought their products because they were attractively priced. Now I am also figuring out they work pretty darn well compared to more expensive equipment too. My emoette comment was meant in jest as I believe that is what people call folks that like their products. Sorry if that upset anybody. But....Jeez! Get a life. Don't get so emotional over the brand name of a freakin stereo amplifier!! And why are you jumping all over me for sharing my own experience??

I just have a hard time paying that much for a product and then it sucks when you turn the key. And no. You can't blame my wires, speakers, or anything else. They are the same for both amps. Even my teenage daughter said "dad, that sounds terrible. Hook your old amp back up." Would seem strange to me if my reply had been.... now dear, we are going to listen to this horrible thing for 2 or 3 weeks hoping it will improve with time.

So it's over and out for me for me on this thread. Sorry if I offended any nut jobs.

I would have the store manager come have a listen if possible.I feel 80% power for listening level is defective to.
I felt like my Sunfire's 3000 watts wasn't available too. Then John reafirmed me it was and that wattage also equals detail and bass control, Not nessesarily volume but sure, I could turn my volume up to 3:00 and that would blow up any speaker set I own. But 50% of my amps power is LOUD.
I do turn the knob up to 12:00 on occasion but I've found out it's because of the recordings mostly. Most recordings fall around the 10:00 mark for my listening enjoyment but quite a few need alot more from the dial and amp to match.
Just my .02

jaxwired

1. Burn in may or may not improve an amp, but it is never more than a subtle change. It sure as hell won't turn "crap" into "wow".

2. It's very possible for the Emotivia amp to sound better than the Krell. Price isn't everything.

3. What HiFi gave that amp 3 out of 5 stars and was thoroughly unimpressed.

4. Yes, cables make a difference, but again, won't turn "crap" into "wow".

5. An hour or two is not sufficient to assess the quality of a new amp in your system. I'd say a few weeks would be more appropriate assuming 10 hours a week minimum of listening time. This has nothing to do with burn-in, it just takes a good long listen before you are aclimated to the new sound. Then you can fairly judge the equipment. However, if the amp is defective, weeks are not necessary, 10 minutes might well be long enough.

6. The following comment from the OP makes me think that it is extremely likely that the amp is either defective OR improperly installed / configured. 80% of full volume is beyond a red flag.

I even had to turn the unit up to about 80% volume to even be able to hear at a reasonable level.

heiney9

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I'm all about giving equipment a fair chance - but purely from a transaction point of view - what if, even after letting ANY device "burn in" you go past the reasonable time allowed to return an item from the dealer you bought it from?

Suppose the dealer won't take back the amp after x hours?

Now you're stuck and I suppose you could rationalize keeping it?

Simple, don't buy a piece of high end gear that you can't return in a reasonable amount of time. Any dealer worth their salt will allow a demo period. If they don;t find another dealer.

heiney9

jaxwired wrote: »

1. Burn in may or may not improve an amp, but it is never more than a subtle change. It sure as hell won't turn "crap" into "wow".

2. It's very possible for the Emotivia amp to sound better than the Krell. Price isn't everything.

3. What HiFi gave that amp 3 out of 5 stars and was thoroughly unimpressed.

4. Yes, cables make a difference, but again, won't turn "crap" into "wow".

5. An hour or two is not sufficient to assess the quality of a new amp in your system. I'd say a few weeks would be more appropriate assuming 10 hours a week minimum of listening time. This has nothing to do with burn-in, it just takes a good long listen before you are aclimated to the new sound. Then you can fairly judge the equipment. However, if the amp is defective, weeks are not necessary, 10 minutes might well be long enough.

6. The following comment from the OP makes me think that it is extremely likely that the amp is either defective OR improperly installed / configured. 80% of full volume is beyond a red flag.

1) not true
2) highly unlikely, but that's not to say someone new to this hobby w/entry level gear might not understand the difference they are hearing.
3) so what?
4) wrong again
5) yes! to the first part, no to the 2nd as if it's not properly broken in or on long enough for it to reach proper bias, how will you ever know.
6) very possible.

H9

concealer404

Oh wow.

This was a terrible thread for me to read upon first visit to the forum today.

jaxwired

heiney9 wrote: »

1) not true
2) highly unlikely, but that's not to say someone new to this hobby w/entry level gear might not understand the difference they are hearing.
3) so what?
4) wrong again
5) yes! to the first part, no to the 2nd as if it's not properly broken in or on long enough for it to reach proper bias, how will you ever know.
6) very possible.

H9

1. We'll just have to disagree on that one. Half the listening public doesn't even acknowledge the existence of "burn-in" and I think the half that does believe in it would tend to side with me regarding the relatively subtle nature of the changes.

2. Have you compared them side by side? Nope. How do you know how they compare. Your impression is entirely based on reputation and conjecture. The OP has actually heard them both.

3. The What HiFi review IS very pertinent because many response to the OP write him off as being an ignorant newbie. I think most people will agree that the What HiFi review staff are NOT ignorant newbies. So it's possible that the OPs assessment is correct as it does concur with certain seasoned audio reviewers.

4. Same answer as number 1.

5. LOL. Again, I don't believe burn-in can be so dramatic that an amp will appear to actually be defective it sounds so bad prior to full burn-in. But apparently you do. Again, we differ.

6. Possible? Please...

Ricardo

The OP didn't like the Krell, prefers the EMO. Good for him. He's getting some cash back.

I have never heard either, so I can't comment (though I probably agree on the burn in time).

Now, ATTACKING THE GUY BECAUSE OF THIS? RIDICULOUS.

Nooshinjohn, you've got to go see a doctor.

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

The OP didn't like the Krell, prefers the EMO. Good for him. He's getting some cash back.

I have never heard either, so I can't comment (though I probably agree on the burn in time).

Now, ATTACKING THE GUY BECAUSE OF THIS? RIDICULOUS.

Nooshinjohn, you've got to go see a doctor.

I agree to a point Ricardo...........but he hasn't given it a fair shot, but it's not my money or my rig. I'm just encouraging the OP to go about this in the correct way. If I had judged my Alpeh based on the first 10 minutes of operation it would be gone. It doesn't even hit it's proper bias until after about 60 minutes of power up and that's BY DESIGN; that's how single ended class A operates........but what a stunning amp when it's properly allowed to warm up.

I agree John needs to take a bottle of chill pills

H9

concealer404

My new tubes sounded like **** until sometime last night, and they'd been running constantly since Thusday afternoon.

jimmydep

In my limited experience with this hobby I too have learned that a burn-in period is necessary to reach the full potential of a piece of equipment and speakers. In less than a week my LSI's went from "these suck" to "not to bad" to "Whoo, I'm keepin these".

To the OP, I think you've gotten some great advice from the Senior members, and you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by just being patient and giving this amp some time to come alive.

Jimmy

superjunior

heiney9 wrote: »

So many hasty people on here want instant gratification in the first few hours or get rid of it. Give it some time man.

I am guilty as charged
break in is real! I am learning this with a set of mit speaker cables, sounded like hell when I first hooked them up - one week later its like a night and day difference!

F1nut

heiney9 wrote: »

1) not true
2) highly unlikely, but that's not to say someone new to this hobby w/entry level gear might not understand the difference they are hearing.
3) so what?
4) wrong again
5) yes! to the first part, no to the 2nd as if it's not properly broken in or on long enough for it to reach proper bias, how will you ever know.
6) very possible.

H9

Again Brock has hit one outta the park!

nooshinjohn

heiney9 wrote: »

I agree John needs to take a bottle of chill pills

H9

Perhaps I do... I just get so tired of the storyline of "any amp here" sucks, Emo Rules. And when someone is able and fortunate enough to buy gear we all dream about gets Mcintosh/Krell/Levinson or whatever your flavor happens to be, IN his home but is unwilling to actually listen to it long enough to even get it up to room temperature before pronouncing said gear to be unworthy of being in the same room kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Apologies to any that thought my comments were out of line. For the most part they were meant to be taken as sarcastic or humerous and not seriously.:)

McLoki

It sounds like the OP has already decided to return the amp so that part I guess is over. I will state one thing that may be at least contributing to the issue though and that is synergy. (this has been mentioned before also)

It comes down to his entire system, not just the amp and speakers. In my case - I have LSi speakers and an NAD pre-amp - both fairly laid back pieces. I have purchased other items that are decribed as brite to help balance the sound a little closer to what I like. If I were to suddenly change out the speakers or pre-amp - the entire system may suddenly start to sound way to brite. It would be a mistake to blame the new component - It would just be moving the sound in the direction I wanted, but be "to much of a good thing" with the rest of my components...

Others may disagree, but audio is more complicated than just purchasing something - plugging it in and getting the same results you heard at the store or the reviewer in the magazine got...

With all that being said - I would expect Krell to match pretty well with LSi speakers, but I bet you could get more improvement for $3,000 by upgrading other things in your system than changing amps from Emo to Krell....

Room upgrades, Sound treatments, source upgrades, speaker changes, cable upgrades, heck, just more Blu-Rays and SACD's - you could hit quite a few of those for the $3,000 price tag and I would expect the change to be much more dramatic than what you experienced with the amplifier switch.

Just my opinion.....

Michael

steveinaz

It may simply be a case of not being used to well controlled, accurate bass. After years of listening to less controlled bass, amps that have an iron grip can sometimes come off (initially) as being extremely lean sounding. Give it some in-system time before jumping to conclusions. When I upgraded from my 14yr old bridged Soundcraftsmen PM840's (in 2001) to the Parasound HCA-1500, I had the same experience--I thought "what the hell happened to my bass?" As time went by, I realized that the Parasound had much better bass control, and was in fact diving deeper--but with far less distortion.

You are probably preferring the colored tonal character of the Emotiva to the more tonally neutral Krell.

heiney9

Neutral gear is NOT for everyone or every system. It lays the music naked and can show other flaws in a particular system. All we are suggesting to the OP is give a fair 2-3 week audition to make sure it's broken in and he's given it a good run with his favorite music, etc.

You'll never get anywhere in this hobby with such hasty decisions.

H9

packetjones

I agree that he should give the krell some more time. I agree that burn time is real and that he should have listened for a lot longer than an hour before making a decision. If he had to turn it up past 80% then there is a good chance that there was something else wrong with the setup.

The only other thing i want to say is, assuming he gave it 200 hours and did not like it and went back to the EMO, could we all accept that people hear differently and maybe for his tastes and the gear that he has that the EMO is better for him? I think some people need to accept that fact that others really like the EMO sound. You may like other amps better but some people really really like what they get from EMO and dont think anything else is better, to them....

This is completely different that the emoette's that think that all other gear is junk compared to emo. I am just saying that some people really like the EMO sound.

PS-

I have to even comment in these types of threads as it seems it is just a giant pissing match.

SolidSqual

ls7z06 wrote: »

My 2 channel consists of a set of LSi9's, an Onkyo AVR used as a pre, an Emo UPA-2, a Wadia 170i, and a Marantz SA8003. Thought I might need a better amp. Ordered a $2500 Krell s300i integrated. Hooked it up last night. What a disappointment. Bass TOTALLY disappeared. Depth, clarity and precision all got real muddy. I was amazed. I tinkered with it for about an hour and finally figured out I had everything right. It just did not sound good at all. I yanked it out and will send it back. Hooked my $300 Emotiva back up and all is well again. When I called for a RA number, the rep said I needed to give it a 200 hour burn in! I said I did not want to spend 200 hours being disappointed for what the Krell cost. It is going back. Maybe it was defective. So... I guess that all makes me an official Emoette!

I like Emotiva a lot, but frankly the results you are describing are not consistent with the unit you are describing. You've either hooked it up wrong or the unit is defective. I've seen and heard that Krell play a pair of Hyperion 968 speakers which is a far more difficult load than what you go there.

steveinaz

It should have never been about this vs. that, it's about what type of tonal character he prefers. Ask anyone with tubes. We go the directions we choose, because of our personal tastes--if you buy what you think you are "supposed" to buy (via opinions of others)---instead of what you actually prefer, you'll never be satisfied with your system.

LuSh

Having owned a Krell 400xi for several years with a pair of Polk Audio LSi9 speakers I feel compelled to comment...

While I have no idea what was wrong with your Krell I must say the Krell piece has a transformer twice the size of the Emo, runs a fully Class - A pre-amplifier and runs balanced-diff from input to output. Factoring out the Emo for a second the Krell should have been an LARGE upgrade in sonic performance as your AV Onkyo is obliterating everything in front of it. Either two things were at play here:

1. The Krell was broken (my Krell sounded great out of the box...and even better a month later)

2. You've found a magical combination in the Onkyo AVR and EMO power amp. If this is the case I would urge all users of this forum to seek out these components and purchase them forgoing anything else at five times the price.

nooshinjohn

steveinaz wrote: »

It should have never been about this vs. that, it's about what type of tonal character he prefers. Ask anyone with tubes. We go the directions we choose, because of our personal tastes--if you buy what you think you are "supposed" to buy (via opinions of others)---instead of what you actually prefer, you'll never be satisfied with your system.

ding Ding Ding....WINNER!:D

No truer words have ever been spoken in audio, unless it's f1's opinion. Then it's GOSPEL.:p;):D

LuSh

I disagree with steveinaz...tonal character is a big factor when comparing output stages and transistors vs. tubes. This thread is about two solid state setups. One solid state set-up used an AVR as a pre and an amplifier. The second setup used a Class-A biased Pre and a 750VA transformer with many more output transistors. There will be differences, it is hard to believe knowing what I know that option 1 could out perform option 2. If option 2 wasn't broken then this entire hobby is pointless as logic has been defied.

steveinaz

Keep in mind, I didn't say the Emotivas tonal character was accurate, I said it was (obviously) his preference--big difference.

zeppage2

jaxwired wrote: »

6. The following comment from the OP makes me think that it is extremely likely that the amp is either defective OR improperly installed / configured. 80% of full volume is beyond a red flag.

This is relevant, most of the other posts are opinion at best.

hearingimpared

heiney9 wrote: »

1) not true
2) highly unlikely, but that's not to say someone new to this hobby w/entry level gear might not understand the difference they are hearing.
3) so what?
4) wrong again
5) yes! to the first part, no to the 2nd as if it's not properly broken in or on long enough for it to reach proper bias, how will you ever know.
6) very possible.

H9

You beat me to it Brock. You are right on the money IMHO!

hearingimpared

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I'm all about giving equipment a fair chance - but purely from a transaction point of view - what if, even after letting ANY device "burn in" you go past the reasonable time allowed to return an item from the dealer you bought it from?

Suppose the dealer won't take back the amp after x hours?

Now you're stuck and I suppose you could rationalize keeping it?

There is usually a 30 trial period given by the dealer. That is plenty of time to burn-in an amp if you keep it running with a CD in loop mode. Hell using that method you could have it burned in within a week.