Roger Russell FOS or legit?

Sami

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Yes, I understood that you were questioning the effectiveness for heart disease, and yes, it is more effective that any other brand. Bayer's formula is proprietary to them and them alone. There are various different compounds within that drug class, but only Bayer can make the claim.

No, never questioned aspirins effectiveness. It's quite a good blood thinner. However the part about the formula is nothing more than a myth. Patent protection on drugs expires and Aspirin is a very old drug. If there was something different in Bayer's formula, they would have to get it approved by FDA and eventually that also would become available as generic drug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin

Sami

nooshinjohn wrote: »

RR states that wires make no difference, then he picks the most expensive wires out there for his speakers... sounds like pretence and deception to me.

Oh boy. There really isn't anything that even remotely points to deception so that leaves only pretence to be argued. Quite frankly his own statement that was posted quite a few times takes away that as well. He isn't even pretending.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pretence

pretence US, pretense [prɪˈtɛns]
n
1. the act of pretending
2. a false display; affectation
3. a claim, esp a false one, to a right, title, or distinction
4. make-believe or feigning
5. a false claim or allegation; pretext
6. a less common word for pretension [3]

JohnLocke88

You guys are never going to get to an answer the way you're debating. You're arguing over equivocation. Your definitions of the words charlatan and hypocrite are different. Just leave it be.

Does RR state that branded wire does not improve sound quality? Yes.

Does RR state that using branded wire in his speakers IMPROVES sound quality? No.

Does RR state that a successful marketing strategy may necessitate the use of branded wire? Yes.

Does this make him a charlatan? a hypocrite? Decide for yourselves, but KNOW there is no definitive answer, so you'll be running in circles chasing each other for days.

Personally, if full disclosure is made, I wouldn't have a problem with him using the branded wire. However, I wouldn't ever pay $18,000 for those things. I'm sure beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for me, a simple set of LSis are much more attractive.

Finally, to those that are ready to lynch Sami and Capri, please DON'T go home and get another noose for me. K Thanks.

snow

Sami wrote: »

No, never questioned aspirins effectiveness. It's quite a good blood thinner. However the part about the formula is nothing more than a myth. Patent protection on drugs expires and Aspirin is a very old drug. If there was something different in Bayer's formula, they would have to get it approved by FDA and eventually that also would become available as generic drug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin

Yes your right on the FDA would have to approve the forumla but wrong about it becoming available to other companies to produce and market as long as the ingredeints were natural and not other drugs. Some drugs have more filler than other brands for example. I know for a fact that all drugs do not have the same effectiveness irregardless of the claims by the FDA or anyone else. This is from personal experience not something I read about online.

I want a double blind study done by you Sami before I buy the cheaper store brand



REGARDS SNOW

Sami

snow wrote: »

Some drugs have more filler than other brands for example.

Filler really is irrelevant as they all need to have the same rate of absorption of the active ingredient.

snow wrote: »

I know for a fact that all drugs do not have the same effectiveness irregardless of the claims by the FDA or anyone else. This is from personal experience not something I read about online.

So I take it for you a generic didn't work as well a brand name. Making conclusions based on that quite the opposite method of double blind studies...

So do you always then tell the pharmacist to fill your RX with brand names instead of generics?

snow wrote: »

I want a double blind study done by you Sami before I buy the cheaper store brand

I'm all for that as long as I get to veto the drug in question.

snow

Sami wrote: »

Filler really is irrelevant as they all need to have the same rate of absorption of the active ingredient.



So I take it for you a generic didn't work as well a brand name. Making conclusions based on that quite the opposite method of double blind studies...

So do you always then tell the pharmacist to fill your RX with brand names instead of generics?



I'm all for that as long as I get to veto the drug in question.

Not nessecarily so even though the active ingredient may be absorbed at the same rate as Bayer brand the other fillers depending on what they are may hamper or increase it's effectivness, some ingredients actually have synergystic effects some dont.

And yes the generic version of at least two different drugs havent worked as well as the name brands for me.

Yes I ask for the brand name I rarely take drugs so when I do I want what has been prescribed due to the above ^^^^



REGARDS SNOW

JohnLocke88

snow wrote: »

Not nessecarily so even though the active ingredient may be asorbed at the same rate as Bayer brand the other fillers depending on what they are may hamper or increase it's effectivness, some ingredients actually have synergystic effects some dont.

And yes the generic version of at least two different drugs havent worked as well as the name brands for me.

Yes I ask for the brand name I rarely take drugs so when I do I want what has been prescribed due to the above ^^^^



REGARDS SNOW

How to tell if a thread is hopelessly derailed and off topic. Original post was about audio, and now we're having a full fledged debate on aspirin. Gee whiz.

WilliamM2

So I take it for you a generic didn't work as well a brand name. Making conclusions based on that quite the opposite method of double blind studies...

Even with medicine, they still deny the existence of the placebo effect. Are you surprised?

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Even with medicine, they still deny the existence of the placebo effect. Are you surprised?

WOW..........do you sit in dark windowless room with a tin foil hat mumbling to yourself while you stare out the small peephole in a door adorned with a dozen different locks?

Is everything a conspiracy type issue with you?

So tell us what you think of the moon landing.................you seem to know everything :rolleyes:. And who is "they" you always refer to? Are "they" always the same people or entities or are "they" different for every set of conspiracy circumstances?

H9

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

P.S. Roger Russell's good name should not be continually be dragged into the mud.

Then stop using him as the be all end all of cable information.

Sami

snow wrote: »

Not nessecarily so even though the active ingredient may be asorbed at the same rate as Bayer brand the other fillers depending on what they are may hamper or increase it's effectivness, some ingredients actually have synergystic effects some dont.

If you truly do believe that then I won't argue with you. I do have to ask though what about the different types of chemicals that you eat while you're taking that medicine?

snow wrote: »

And yes the generic version of at least two different drugs havent worked as well as the name brands for me.

I won't argue with that either but to prove it was actually the generic drugs fault would require extensive clinical tests...

snow wrote: »

Yes I ask for the brand name I rarely take drugs so when I do I want what has been prescribed due to the above ^^^^

I'm tempted to comment on that one as well but I also think the thread has derailed enough already. Please don't take anything I've said as an offense to you, I don't take these arguments too seriously and I like to assume that others wouldn't either. That's not the case all the time so I will most likely sit back and just follow the conversation (or not) before people get too heated up.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Even with medicine, they still deny the existence of the placebo effect. Are you surprised?

What the hell are you smoking tonight? No-one said anything denying the placebo effect where medicine is concerned. If a doctor who has no stake in a certain medication finds in his experience that his patients get better results from using a brand name who the hell are you to doubt his findings?

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

He is referenced as a respected source by the rational audio community.
You can disagree with him, but don't disrespect him.


Bingo!

Yawn!:rolleyes:

WilliamM2

WOW..........do you sit in dark windowless room with a tin foil hat mumbling to yourself while you stare out the small peephole in a door adorned with a dozen different locks?

No. What's that like anyways? Don't you get lonely?

Is everything a conspiracy type issue with you?

What conspiracy? Did you forget your meds again? Or maybe you're using generics?

Mon40CSMM10

One thing I am curious about, since this is a Polk Audio forum.

The Roger Russel web page that is the subject of this discussion clearly mentions what wires they use for the internals of the speakers also discussed on that page... so what does Polk Audio use for the internals of their speakers?

(I could probably find out by opening up one of my speakers, I don't want to do that and possibly cause damage to the speakers.)

heiney9

Mon40CSMM10 wrote: »

One thing I am curious about, since this is a Polk Audio forum.

The Roger Russel web page that is the subject of this discussion clearly mentions what wires they use for the internals of their speakers... so what does Polk Audio use for the internals of their speakers?

(I could probably find out by opening up one of my speakers, but no, I don't want to do that.)

Inexpensive multi-strand copper..........why?

H9

Mon40CSMM10

Just curious, that's all.

I bought the Polk speakers I currently use simply by how they sounded and never even thought about the wiring used for the internals at any time before or after I bought the speakers, until reading this thread and another speaker wire thread referencing the RR webpage.

But, since the issue of the type/brand of wiring was mentioned the RR webpage, I thought I'd ask about what the Polk speakers used.

(That Polk uses inexpensive multi-strand copper wire still doesn't affect my opinion of the sound of those speakers.)

megasat16

Mon40CSMM10 wrote: »

One thing I am curious about, since this is a Polk Audio forum.

The Roger Russel web page that is the subject of this discussion clearly mentions what wires they use for the internals of their speakers... so what does Polk Audio use for the internals of their speakers?

(I could probably find out by opening up one of my speakers, but no, I don't want to do that.)

Does it matter what wire or wire gauges are used in Polk Speakers? Polk Speakers does not cost as near to IDS25.

Polk used clear speaker wires with 12-14AWG in the ones I have. They looks like ordinary speaker wires but of decent quality and looks better than the monoprice wires.

Mon40CSMM10

Does it matter what wire or wire gauges are used in Polk Speakers?

Nope, and that's kind of the point.

I bought the speakers based on sound. I asked the question out of curiosity, and yet the speakers still sound good to me no matter how cheap or expensive the cables used for the internals might be.

Now, I *was* the customer that cared enough about the wire used for the internals of the speakers, then it's possible I would have passed up on great sounding speakers just because I insisted on recognizable brand name speaker wire for the internals of the speaker.

Obviously, I am not that type of customer, and I proudly own Polk speakers for the fronts, center, and surrounds.

hearingimpared

Yep, to keep the price at a reasonable cost Polk didn't use high end wires in their speakers. I've completely refreshed and tweaked out my 1.2 TLs and was toying with the idea of changing out the internal wires. They sound awesome as they are now and I really am not up to doing the intensive work required to change out the current wires with high end wires.

snow

Sami wrote: »

If you truly do believe that then I won't argue with you. I do have to ask though what about the different types of chemicals that you eat while you're taking that medicine?



I won't argue with that either but to prove it was actually the generic drugs fault would require extensive clinical tests...



I'm tempted to comment on that one as well but I also think the thread has derailed enough already. Please don't take anything I've said as an offense to you, I don't take these arguments too seriously and I like to assume that others wouldn't either. That's not the case all the time so I will most likely sit back and just follow the conversation (or not) before people get too heated up.

Please feel free to comment I wont be offended. To answer your question regarding chemicals that I may have ingested through food while taking the different prescriptions yes certainly it could have had an effect, these werent controlled studies by any means. Now if for example I was told that a drug a doctor prescribed was going to cost me $1200.00 for a months supply and I would have to take this drug the rest of my life or I could get the generic version which is supposed to work as well for $200.00 then I would certainly reconsider my stance on that. But if I only get a prescription once every few years then I would prefer to take the name brand.

We arent always going to agree on everything, even my closest friends on here I disagree with on some subjects but we are still friends the next day.



REGARDS SNOW

hearingimpared

snow wrote: »

We arent always going to agree on everything, even my closest friends on here I disagree with on some subjects but we are still friends the next day.



REGARDS SNOW

LOL!!! The next day is right!:p:D

snow

xcapri79 wrote: »

Polk LSi's were previously dismissed as entry level. (Emphasis mine.)
I believe that they are much better than that.

I think more than your choice of speakers LSi's in your case the derision showed to you in this thread is your seemingly unwillingness to try more expensive cables and basing your beliefs on someone elses oppinion rather than forming your own through actual experience.


I dont think LSi's are entry level at least as far as the Polk brand goes.



REGARDS SNOW

inspiredsports

Mon40CSMM10 wrote: »

Nope, and that's kind of the point.

I bought the speakers based on sound. I asked the question out of curiosity, and yet the speakers still sound good to me no matter how cheap or expensive the cables used for the internals might be.

Now, I *was* the customer that cared enough about the wire used for the internals of the speakers, then it's possible I would have passed up on great sounding speakers just because I insisted on recognizable brand name speaker wire for the internals of the speaker.

Obviously, I am not that type of customer, and I proudly own Polk speakers for the fronts, center, and surrounds.

I love to experiment with higher and higher quality speaker wires, and have never gone back to a cable I replaced. No placebo effect. No hurt pride that I spent money and have to cover my butt by stating I like the "better" cable. No games. I have simply found better cables yield sonic improvements.

As far as the wire inside between crossovers/drivers/binding posts, I think it can be safe to say the characteristics of those wires were taken into account by he designer as he created a total system that presents it's identity at the binding posts.

If the wire has a specific inductance value, the specific values of the inductors selected for use in the circuit will reflect this, if they have a specific resistance value, the resistor values selected for use will take this into account, and if they have a specific capacitance, you guessed it, specific cap values were specified.

Again, this total speaker system design is what is presented at its binding posts.

The problem you now need to solve is to synergystically match the needs of your specific amplifier's output to those binding posts. Unfortunately, my personal findings show that the wires that are engineered do this best (again, in my opinion), cost way more than what Roger Russell says he believes.

megasat16

Yes, cables and wires makes a difference how the overall system sounds regardless of the price.

But as with other things in nature, the good and the ugliness of the cable nonsense is intertwined. There are certain hypes going on due to the fact that cables and wires make a difference. These hypes are put in the Ultra High Priced Cables and Wires to reap in $$$$$ based on the the fact some believers will go extreme length and pay 5 figure numbers for a good wire. There may be a benefit with these ultra uber expensive wires but let's don't forget the overall sounds is a matter of synergy, everything else matters, and everything depends on every other things.

If you are fixed to every gears in the chain and totally satisfied with how they sounds but buying these Ultra uber 5 figure priced wires to tweak the sound, you may be very close to audio nirvana or you are just paying too much to get too little back in returns. It's a close call and one needs to experience with that but you need to be ultra rich to find out.

BlueFox

xcapri79 wrote: »

Polk LSi's were previously dismissed as entry level.

I have 4 LSi15s, and they are entry level into higher end audio. As has been stated, when the electronics, ICs, speaker cables, and room acoustics are all improved they can can sound quite good. Certainly much better than they will sound with cheap electronics, cheap ICs, cheap speaker wire, and no room treatments.

Your problem, as was previoulsy stated, is you feel your existing setup is the pinnacle of sound, and nothing, expecially speaker wires, can make it sound better. As long as you have that attitude, and keep trying to push it, you are going to be mocked, ridiculed, and scorned.

nooshinjohn

BlueFox wrote: »

Your problem, as was previoulsy stated, is you feel your existing setup is the pinnacle of sound, and nothing, expecially speaker wires, can make it sound better. As long as you have that attitude, and keep trying to push it, you are going to be mocked, ridiculed, and scorned.

If I may also add that he is only hurting himself by not understanding that audio is a journey, much like life. If you stay on one path, standing in the same spot, you miss out one the wonderful progressions that come along the way.

hearingimpared

Mon40CSMM10 wrote: »

Just curious, that's all.

I bought the Polk speakers I currently use simply by how they sounded and never even thought about the wiring used for the internals at any time before or after I bought the speakers, until reading this thread and another speaker wire thread referencing the RR webpage.

But, since the issue of the type/brand of wiring was mentioned the RR webpage, I thought I'd ask about what the Polk speakers used.

(That Polk uses inexpensive multi-strand copper wire still doesn't affect my opinion of the sound of those speakers.)

xcapri79 wrote: »

Polk LSi's were previously dismissed as entry level. (Emphasis mine.)
I believe that they are much better than that.

Talk about a non-related response to a statement

How long have you been waiting to fit that little tid-bit of hurt feeling into the fray? LSis are entry level speakers into the high end of speakers. As I stated before you could make them sound a hell of a lot better if you tried some better speaker wires than what you've read and adhere to i.e. Rodger Russell. If you feel you are at the apex of what your rig can do and want to stay where Rodger Russell says you should then more power to you.

tonyb

The OP's poll shows that twice the amount of people think he's a windbag. If that was a political poll, his career would be over. Yet, even down in the polls,his supporters are still claiming some sort of victory. Go figure.

treitz3

Sad thing is, that one does not need unlimited funds to upgrade. There have been plenty of used cables sold here for less than $200.00 that would improve sonic the performance of many a system.