Cable Break-in/adjustment period
Comments
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SolidSqual wrote: »UPS just arrived with my new Shottys! I took a pic for you guys!
And people wonder why you stay at home waiting for the mail.Michael
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
NORTH of 60° -
No point in arguing with the trolls Jesse. I know what my ears are hearing, and that's all the proof I need. If someone comes along that wants to learn, help em' out. As for these trolling **** clowns, F em'. No pie for them.
I want to learn! I really do. The unique thing about me is that my beliefs can be altered if someone can prove it. I'm not stubborn in that regard. I really just want some proof is all. Is the proof your talking about just members saying they can hear a difference? If someone posted something I overlooked please repost it again. Thanks. -
I want to learn! I really do. The unique thing about me is that my beliefs can be altered if someone can prove it. I'm not stubborn in that regard. I really just want some proof is all. Is the proof your talking about just members saying they can hear a difference? If someone posted something I overlooked please repost it again. Thanks.
Prove it to yourself! It's not my job to prove to YOU I hear a difference you already stated this:
As for cables in general, I will make the statement that a very well built cable of adequate diameter sounds no different/unnoticeable from a cable costing $1000/ft. Why am I comfortable making this statement? Because no scientific data or anyone can accurately distinguish between the two in listening tests.
Why can't you try for yourself? I didn;t listen to either side of the arguement way back when I was green like you. I put it to the test myself, with my gear, in my listening room, with my music, spent months and years listening to different cables, etc.
Why is it (and I really want to know this) that for all you naysayers it's up to SOMEONE else to prove it to YOU. Why can't you step outside your blinders and give it a serious try? Why must you read oodles of scientific data? If you read that science says it makes a difference and you don;t hear a difference......will you still believe just because you read it in a science study.........even though your ears might tell you differently?
Really what are you afraid of?
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I view this hobby as more of an "art" vs. "science". Go out and buy some cables and run your own tests and form your own opinions.
Also, can the moderators add circus music to play whenever somebody clicks on this thread... -
Prove it to yourself! It's not my job to prove to YOU I hear a difference you already stated this:
As for cables in general, I will make the statement that a very well built cable of adequate diameter sounds no different/unnoticeable from a cable costing $1000/ft. Why am I comfortable making this statement? Because no scientific data or anyone can accurately distinguish between the two in listening tests.
Why can't you try for yourself? I didn;t listen to either side of the arguement way back when I was green like you. I put it to the test myself, with my gear, in my listening room, with my music, spent months and years listening to different cables, etc.
Why is it (and I really want to know this) that for all you naysayers it's up to SOMEONE else to prove it to YOU. Why can't you step outside your blinders and give it a serious try? Why must you read oodles of scientific data? If you read that science says it makes a difference and you don;t hear a difference......will you still believe just because you read it in a science study.........even though your ears might tell you differently?
Really what are you afraid of?
H9
I've tested cables, but not on the order we are talking. I don't want to spend 3,000 dollars. Know of anyone with a good return policy? -
I've tested cables, but not on the order we are talking. I don't want to spend 3,000 dollars. Know of anyone with a good return policy?
MIT
Audioquest
there is always the used market and believe me if you buy them at fair market value and you want to flip them you'll hardly loose any money if any at all.
Your repsonse is the typical response to not trying higher end cables. What if you read from a very scientific POV that $3K cables made a difference and it was proven (to whatever standard you deem necessary) and you went out and bought them and didn't hear the difference the scientific study showed?
What would you do then? Believe it because science says so? Keep the cables since you foolishly spent $3K on them and tell people they were the greatest cables on Earth even though you couldn't hear a difference?
If a scientific study proves there are audible differences in cables in NO WAY means you can hear them. The ONLY way to know for sure is to experience them fro yourself in your environment, on your equipment, etc.
Right now on Audiogon you can buy a pair of MIT's from Joe Abrams for 60-70% off retail and not loose any money if you need to flip them when you're done experimenting.
Right here in our very own Club we have (2) pr. MIT CVT I/C's and (1) pr MIT CVT speaker cables on loan,for CP members to demo, from MIT for the cost of shipping to the next person in line. Retail on these cables is about $2500.
Your argument of not spending money doesn;t hold water. There are ways if you're determined enough to really experiement and find the answer for YOUR SELF.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Your repsonse is the typical response to not trying higher end cables. What if you read from a very scientific POV that $3K cables made a difference and it was proven (to whatever standard you deem necessary) and you went out and bought them and didn't hear the difference the scientific study showed?
What would you do then? Believe it because science says so? Keep the cables since you foolishly spent $3K on them and tell people they were the greatest cables on Earth even though you couldn't hear a difference?
H9
In all fairness, your argument is a bit fallacious. You're presupposing two distinct realities coexisting. For example... if in an alternate reality, science says the sky is purple and dogs meow, than chances are that is the case. You can't really posit one fictional scenario and apply it to world in which we live.
That being said (and it was... just now), I'm a firm believer in cables. Moreover, 99% of your arguments are rock solid. I just don't want to give any of these hyenas any ammunition.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I want to learn! I really do. The unique thing about me is that my beliefs can be altered if someone can prove it. I'm not stubborn in that regard. I really just want some proof is all. Is the proof your talking about just members saying they can hear a difference? If someone posted something I overlooked please repost it again. Thanks.
If you have good enough system that is revealing you should hear a difference in cables. I added AQ T4 speaker cables used for $80 and could hear an improvement over monoprice 12G and that was just with SDA-1Cs, Denon AVR and PS3 as a CDP.
Adding a much better CDP (Rotel), Caver AMP, PS Audio DAC, CA Phono stage and finally a Adcom GFP-750 Pre I heard improvements with each addition.
The Pre exposed some weaknesses in my system that lead me to MIT S3 shotguns IC for all my sources and between AMP and Pre which resolved issues and improved my system SQ greatly. My mid-70s Technics SL1300 with Denon DL-160 cart now sounds like a $800 TT IMO.
Still using the AQ T4 but MIT S3 shotgun speaker cables are in my future.
I do find power cable upgrades over stock seem to have minor improvements in sound but I am using pretty entry level PCs.
Adding myespikes to my 1Cs made a nice improvement as well.
In conclusion, if you system is a HTiB or entry level components you may not hear any differences in cables no matter how you spend.
Since the topic is cable break in, I have tried several new cables, Ben's Silvers, MITs S3, Signal and I agree that they do improve after the first 2 days but the improvements is not as great for the rest of the burn in but is an improvement.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
My only point in these types of arguements is this:
Unless you've tried it for yourself, in your listening environment, with your gear and the music you love and are familiar with, you can not speak on this subject.
Many of you have diahrea of the keyboard and need to get some help.
I personally feel many of the naysayers are crazy for trying to find proof outside of trying it for themselves. I have NEVER taken any product, service, etc on face value based on what others say or scientific data alone. Sure, a postive recommendation here and there helps, but I always try it for myself before I decide.
It's extrememly laughable to read posts from people who have never tired to hear a difference but then in the same breath expound on why there isn't a difference. It's not logical to argue about something you've never tried.
Anyways.........this is about the 100th thread on cables and I'm outta here. I hear very distinct differences in cables and after quite a few years of experimenting I've settled on MIT's.
Enjoy your rigs and your music..........that IS truly what this hobby is all about.
Ciao
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
This has all been a very interesting read no doubt, but I am curious as to what type of gear (to include IC's/Speaker wire/etc) WilliamM2 and Cpyder are running to claim that there are no differences in sound/quality when it comes to cables.
If the components are of high enough quality, they would hear a difference. Will their argument fall apart if they shared what equipment they had?
I know a 7000 dollar cable won't make my system better, but I have spent many hours enjoying a friends SS system where MIT cables make a huge difference.....Monarchy Monoblocks powering a 5.1 aerial acoustics speaker set using a Project TT w/tube preamp or Pioneer elite DVD as a source (forgot which pre/pro)...........and it is probably something that you really can't measure but you can feel -
It wasn't an issue of whether or not a frequency existed but how it existed - the seem less relationship between speakers - the clean authority with which the bass presented itself ........these are not issues of science but using electricity to reproduce art.
And those same cables sounded like crap on his Jolida Tube amp with B&Ws in the other room....also a very respectable system........it was a fun education in system synergy.I love to listen to music but not to test cables. I just try to focus on the music and try not to focus on what's not right with it. That's no fun. And I realize that any audio set up is not even close to live music. No cable or wire will make a significate audio difference for me IMHO.
This sums up your argument for me - making your system sound as close to live (or reality) as possible is an honorable goal in this hobby - and it is very amazing how close you can come.
If someone was sitting in my living room and said - "when I closed my eyes I thought I was there" - I would be flattered - and I wouldn't believe them because I know I have a long way to go before I feel that way.
We all get into this hobby for different reasons.
BTW - nice screen name
I love bicycles and I love FZ, have you listened to/seen Dweezil's tour last year yet - Zappa plays Zappa - an outstanding DVD regardless of what cables you use. -
Cpyder, what kind of gear are you running?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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clarknova_666 wrote: »If the components are of high enough quality, they would hear a difference. Will their argument fall apart if they shared what equipment they had?
I know a 7000 dollar cable won't make my system better, but I have spent many hours enjoying a friends SS system where MIT cables make a huge difference.....Monarchy Monoblocks powering a 5.1 aerial acoustics speaker set using a Project TT w/tube preamp or Pioneer elite DVD as a source (forgot which pre/pro)...........and it is probably something that you really can't measure but you can feel -
It wasn't an issue of whether or not a frequency existed but how it existed - the seem less relationship between speakers - the clean authority with which the bass presented itself ........these are not issues of science but using electricity to reproduce art.
And those same cables sounded like crap on his Jolida Tube amp with B&Ws in the other room....also a very respectable system........it was a fun education in system synergy.
This sums up your argument for me - making your system sound as close to live (or reality) as possible is an honorable goal in this hobby - and it is very amazing how close you can come.
If someone was sitting in my living room and said - "when I closed my eyes I thought I was there" - I would be flattered - and I wouldn't believe them because I know I have a long way to go before I feel that way.
We all get into this hobby for different reasons.
BTW - nice screen name
I love bicycles and I love FZ, have you listened to/seen Dweezil's tour last year yet - Zappa plays Zappa - an outstanding DVD regardless of what cables you use.
Thanks Clark.
I think it was George Grand that stated: have any one play a set of drums in your room and record them with the best equipment possible. Play it back and the sound isn't even close.
I may go to the ZPZ concert when he comes to Boston. I think I saw Zappa about 30 times, sometimes twice the same day and the concerts were completely different. Miss the man.
Some simple random facts about the forum:
-The science of EE is very exact for audio and RF. It predicts circuit outcomes very well. If you can disprove current EE circuit theory you will win the Noble Prize..
-Very few people understand basic EE theory here.
-DB Testing is difficult to set up properly.
-On this forum if you disagree with some one it rapidy generates to name calling, spelling corrections and insults on both sides.
-This forum is not structured to have an inteligent dialogue or debate on most subjects.
-If you don't have 1000 posts you are a AH and will get no respect even if you are Einstein.
-Bulling is encouraged or ignored.
-Many people on this forum love music and love to help people with their systems.
-There are good items to buy and sell here.
-Some very funny people post on this forum.
-YMMV. -
Some simple random facts about the forum:
-The science of EE is very exact for audio and RF. It predicts circuit outcomes very well. If you can disprove current EE circuit theory you will win the Noble Prize..
-Very few people understand basic EE theory here.
-DB Testing is difficult to set up properly.
-On this forum if you disagree with some one it rapidy generates to name calling, spelling corrections and insults on both sides.
-This forum is not structured to have an inteligent dialogue or debate on most subjects.
-If you don't have 1000 posts you are a AH and will get no respect even if you are Einstein.
-Bulling is encouraged or ignored.
-Many people on this forum love music and love to help people with their systems.
-There are good items to buy and sell here.
-Some very funny people post on this forum.
-YMMV.
What scientific study did you use to come up with this load of crap? Just wondering if you have some sort of statistical analysis or simply is your opinion based on your biases?
I mean your the scientific type so I'd expect you to show some data to back up your findings.
Perhaps you're just speaking in general although you did say your findings were fact.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
What scientific study did you use to come up with this load of crap? Just wondering if you have some sort of statistical analysis or simply is your opinion based on your biases?
I mean your the scientific type so I'd expect you to show some data to back up your findings.
Perhaps you're just speaking in general although you did say your findings were fact.
H9
What specific item do you disagree with or are they all wrong? -
My modest system
Revox Tuner made in 1989 B 261S
Revox Amp made in 1989 B 250S
Sony Jukebox ES series 2003?
Thorens turntable 1960s orignal condition
Revov interconnects
Large gauge speaker wire no name.
Tried very expensive Monster speaker wire
Tried other, can't remember the name interconnects about $100 a pair.
Looking to purchase a Revox B 226 S CD player to complete the system. -
No pie for them.
I suspect that they really don't like pie.;) They like to argue.hearingimpared wrote: »We've given dozens of facts . . . you choose to ignore them.Prove it to yourself! It's not my job to prove to YOU I hear a difference you already stated this:
Why can't you try for yourself?I didn;t listen to either side of the arguement way back when I was green like you. I put it to the test myself, with my gear, in my listening room, with my music, spent months and years listening to different cables, etc.
That was because you were interested in music, rather than arguing about and ridiculing how others are pursuing a hobby.Why can't you step outside your blinders and give it a serious try? Really what are you afraid of?
They are afraid of losing one of the few things in their life that makes them feel good about themselves: felling superior to the imagined inadequacies of a widely misunderstood group.I view this hobby as more of an "art" vs. "science".
Exactly. Audio is all about bias and subjective preference.Really what are you afraid of?
Fear is a path to the dark side.
Audiophile bashing is just another form of prejudice. Like any other prejudice, audiophile bashing is driven by fear, anger, irrationality, ignorance and feelings of inadequacy.
Audio naysayers cling to and cringe behind blind tests and quantitative measurements like a frightened child hiding under its mother's skirt.
Why spend so much time railing against something that has no effects on your personal life and no detrimental effects on society in general? I have said many times that when you see someone irrationally railing against something or someone that is inconsequential to them, they actually like, or want to be like, the thing or person they are railing against. Rational people simply ignore leisure pursuits they have no belief or interest in. I have no interest whatsoever in spending hours in a grassy field, sometimes in unfavorable or inclement weather, using a long metal stick to hit a little white ball into a little round hole. However, I would never ridicule those who find such a leisure pursuit enjoyable.
As I articulated earlier (here), most people understand that blind tests are designed to remove observer bias and placebo effect. However, the process of enjoying mechanically reproduced music is built around the principles of observer bias and placebo effect!
With that in mind, how can the application of a test designed to remove the basic tenets of a subjective based process be rationally justified?
At its most basic, reproduced music is a form of "counterfeiting". Therefore, when you ask someone to differentiate between two pieces of music reproduction equipment, you are asking them to identify the differences between two counterfeits.
In blind trials, there is not enough time given to study the counterfeits in order to make an accurate assessment. Another drawback is that the observer often does not have any interest in, or sufficient experience with the differentiating factors between the counterfeits. Currency counterfeiters have gotten so good that our currency had to have a major overhaul. If you put two excellent counterfeit bills in front of two experienced treasury agents for 5 minutes and ask them to identify the differences they probably will have some difficulty. On the other hand, if they are given the bills and allowed to spend some time with them, they will most likely be able to make a list of differences and also tell you the counterfeiter who produced them.
Almost everyone, even those with no interest in audio whatsoever, can differentiate between low resolution (low-fi) and mid to hi-fi audio equipment. There used to be a big difference between mid-fi and hi-fi (high end), but that gap has narrowed considerably over the last 10 years. When you start trying to audibly differentiate between hi-fi equipment, you have some difficulty because most of it is routinely excellent. Last year, after two years of ownership, I switched from a Cary CD 306 SACD player to its successor, the CD 306 Pro Version. I could tell the difference between them immediately. I sold the earlier version CD 306 to someone who said he had listened to both the new and earlier version at a dealer and absolutely could not hear a difference between them.
At the current state of the art, identifying audible differences in hi-fi equipment is like trying to pick out the most beautiful woman in the Miss Universe pageant. In many cases, it is like trying to pick out the differences between identical twins. Most people have difficulty differentiating between a pair of 5 year old identical twins that they have no familiarity with. However, their mother can tell the difference. She can tell the difference even if they both show up at her door wearing cloaks and ski masks. Does the mother possess some superior visual and auditory attributes? No, she just has the advantages of familiarity and experience with her twins. Some mothers learn to differentiate their infant twins not only by sight, but also by sound and smell. Now, if you ask this woman to pick out the differences in someone else's five year old identical twins, what do you think would be the most probable outcome? Would her inability to differential between another woman's twins call into question her ability to differentiate between her own? Some mothers have difficulty differentiating between their own twins until a few weeks or a even a few months have passed. However, I know of no case, either personally or in the literature, where a mother didn't soon learn to differentiate between her twins. Conversely, some, perhaps many, fathers often have difficulty differentiating between their twins even after the twins reach adulthood!
Blind tests work very well for testing the effects of drugs on human beings. However, when we look at the DNA of human beings, we find that regardless of our gender or racial subtype, our DNA is over 95% identical. We all have the same basic parts and same basic needs. If you take a random sample of 1000 human beings from any where in the world, the majority of them will have the same physiological response to the same drug or other gross physical stimuli.
However, if you play a song or show a painting to that same 1000 person sample, you stand a good chance of getting 1000 different reactions to and opinions of the artistic work.
Some things just have to be thought through in order to make sense. However, if your mind is clouded by prejudice, stereotypical thinking, fear, anger, irrationality, ignorance and feelings of inadequacy, rational thought and rational conclusions are impossible to achieve.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I want DB tests done so you can demonstrate to me and others that you can hear a differnce between X and Y. If you can hear the differnce with blind testing that would be fasinating and very interesting. My next question would be to ask you want are these differences that you hear.
If the difference between X and Y is dramatic, as many of you have stated, why can't you demonstarte this differnce with Blind tests?
And yes I understand that some blind testing is not set up right. You tell me the set up requirements.
I have been in the camp that there was a difference between X and Y but when I did the Blind test I couldn't tell the differnce. My ears were fooled. I changed my mind and opinion. -
Im to poor to buy expensive cables, but I do think this is funny....Polk Audio Surround Bar 360
Mirage PS-12
LG BDP-550
Motorola HD FIOS DVR
Panasonic 42" Plasma
XBOX 360[/SIZE]
Office stuff
Allied 395 receiver
Pioneer CDP PD-M430
RT8t's & Wharfedale Diamond II's[/SIZE]
Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music. ~Ronald Reagan -
I find it funny. Every time the naysayers come in screaming, the question is posed to them..."what cables have you tried?". The answer is usually...none...
Why is that? Because you don't want to spend $3000 on cables? That's very good, because you won't have to spend anywhere even remotely close to 3k to get some very high quality cables. Even in the $300 and lower category, there is a mind boggling assortment of different cables.
Buy used, and you'll be able to resell them at essentially no loss.
I also find it funny how the naysayers come in preaching about DBT, and how cables can't possibly make a difference. Do you really think you're changing anyones mind? I have personally heard very noticeable difference between cables, and I've barely even begun to experiment with them.
This is a hobby. You pursue it in whatever way you see fit, and let others pursue it in whatever way they see fit. If you don't hear the difference...congrats. You're going to save a lot of money on cables.
You should appreciate the other people that do buy high end cables though. They're making this a better country for you, by helping to stimulate the economy. They're also getting much better sound out of their rigs in the process.
I highly doubt I'll ever spend $3000 on cables...but I'd have no problems spending $500-1000 on cables one day.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
I want DB tests done so you can demonstrate to me and others that you can hear a differnce between X and Y. If you can hear the differnce with blind testing that would be fasinating and very interesting. My next question would be to ask you want are these differences that you hear.
If the difference between X and Y is dramatic, as many of you have stated, why can't you demonstarte this differnce with Blind tests?
And yes I understand that some blind testing is not set up right. You tell me the set up requirements.
I have been in the camp that there was a difference between X and Y but when I did the Blind test I couldn't tell the differnce. My ears were fooled. I changed my mind and opinion.
Trying to prove you hear a difference in cables is like trying to prove to someone else that you love your significant other. All we can go on is what you say.........no real way to prove it........it's just a feeling/emotion that cannot be explained. Same goes for cables.......no way to prove it but once you know, then you know. If you can hear it great, if you can't hear it then great as well......you just saved yourself some money.:p
bikezappa, if you are married, do you love your wife? If so, prove it? Not picking on ya', just trying to make a point. There are some things that you just have to let go and not try and explain. Cables being one of them. -
Trying to prove you hear a difference in cables is like trying to prove to someone else that you love your significant other. All we can go on is what you say.........no real way to prove it........it's just a feeling/emotion that cannot be explained. Same goes for cables.......no way to prove it but once you know, then you know. If you can hear it great, if you can't hear it then great as well......you just saved yourself some money.:p
bikezappa, if you are married, do you love your wife? If so, prove it? Not picking on ya', just trying to make a point. There are some things that you just have to let go and not try and explain. Cables being one of them.
Exactly.
Why do the classical instruments produced by Stradivarius sound so good? Nobody knows, and nobody can explain why. There has been speculation(aging of the wood, no completely symmetrical dimensions), but no solid facts as to WHY they sound so much better than other instruments, that are built in exactly the same way. People have built EXACT replicas of various Stradivarius instruments many times. They have NEVER ended up sounding as good.
They just...sound better. No further explanation is needed. Sometimes you just have to accept that not everything can be explained by science.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Exactly.
Why do the classical instruments produced by Stradivarius sound so good? Nobody knows, and nobody can explain why. There has been speculation(aging of the wood, no completely symmetrical dimensions), but no solid facts as to WHY they sound so much better than other instruments, that are built in exactly the same way. People have built EXACT replicas of various Stradivarius instruments many times. They have NEVER ended up sounding as good.
They just...sound better. No further explanation is needed. Sometimes you just have to accept that not everything can be explained by science.
Would you be able to hear the difference between a person playing a Stradivrius and that same person playing a cheap violin if they were behind a sheet? -
comfortablycurt wrote: »
They just...sound better. No further explanation is needed. Sometimes you just have to accept that not everything can be explained by science.
Actually I believe at some point science could explain some differences. The stumbling block right now are corollary issue's.
No one seems to know how some of the measurements taken with regards to electrical properties correlate to how our ears and brain interpret these changes and whether or not all individuals intepret these properties and changes in the same way.
DK's analysis is spot on!!!........not that he needs my endorsement
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Would you be able to hear the difference between a person playing a Stradivrius and that same person playing a cheap violin if they were behind a sheet?
I don't know if I personally would be able to, as I'm not a violinist. But, a violinist would and HAS been able to tell the difference between them many numerous times.
Also, the violin being compared to the Stradi isn't exactly cheap. It would still cost near $10,000. The Stradi's just have something special. The Stradivarius family was an entire family of musical instrument craftsmen. I'm sure they have a few tricks up their sleeves.
Are we going to get into an argument about how it's impossible for two violins with the same construction to sound different now?:rolleyes:The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
Trying to prove you hear a difference in cables is like trying to prove to someone else that you love your significant other. All we can go on is what you say.........no real way to prove it........it's just a feeling/emotion that cannot be explained. Same goes for cables.......no way to prove it but once you know, then you know. If you can hear it great, if you can't hear it then great as well......you just saved yourself some money.:p
bikezappa, if you are married, do you love your wife? If so, prove it? Not picking on ya', just trying to make a point. There are some things that you just have to let go and not try and explain. Cables being one of them.
There is a real way to prove it. It's called a listening test. It would be very easy to set up. Wire the two wires in question to the speakers and the other ends connected to a switching box, which further connects to the amp/receiver, whatever. Play sine waves at different frequencies, flip between the two wires and observe the differences. It wouldn't even have to be blind. When you find a frequency you feel changes between the two wires, then set up a blind test to eliminate bias. -
And please stop bringing up instruments and pieces of audio equipment. No one is saying they don't sound different. We are talking about broken-in wires and non-broken-in wires. (Due to the dielectric) Lumping people who say there's no difference in the wires with people who argue audio components sound no different is flawed logic and a perfect example of ad hominem!
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Maybe they weren't measuring the right parameters, or at sufficient resolution...and they can't measure human perception.This is about the changing dielectric with cable use, and whether or not that affects the sound. As for cables in general, I will make the statement that a very well built cable of adequate diameter sounds no different/unnoticeable from a cable costing $1000/ft. Why am I comfortable making this statement? Because no scientific data or anyone can accurately distinguish between the two in listening tests.
If this were true I would have the most expensive cables I have ever auditioned, because I would expect them to sound better. I don't, in fact my cables are relatively cheap by audiophile standards. In some cases I rejected the more expensive cable because I didn't like the sound, or felt the difference wasn't worth the money. That's right, I don't want to spend money on cables! That is my expectational bias. I only do it when the sound is worth it to me.What is going on here? Expectational bias and the placebo effect.
I suspect you don't have experience with a system of high enough resolution to reveal such differences. Try auditioning, say, AntiCables against a multistrand cable such as my Analysis Plus Oval Nine (both are relatively inexpensive BTW). The differences are rather obvious in a decent system.Steve Carlson
Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Are we going to get into an argument about how it's impossible for two violins with the same construction to sound different now?:rolleyes:
I can't imagine how my simple question is starting an argument.
Why are you so defensive.
I know I couldn't tell the difference because I have no experience.
I remember the story a few years ago when a very famious violin player with a very rare expensive violin played in the train station in Washington DC for over a hour and NOBODY except one person stopped to listen. 1000s of people just walked on by.
And I'm not trying to start another argument about violinists in train stations either. Grin -
More Pie Pls!~Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
