Cable Break-in/adjustment period

WilliamM2

DarqueKnight wrote: »

You're looking for a naysayer with an open mind? Really? You would have better luck finding a casino that routinely forgives gambling debts.

Like you have an open mind. Your mind is so closed you won't even discuss the topic.

DarqueKnight

thsmith wrote: »

Where is the ignore button, seriously is there one ?

polkie4life wrote: »

User CP upper left, edit ignore list.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Several of us have asked the forum administration to modify the forum software so that the comments of ignored individuals do not show up in quotes, similar to the way that ignored individuals cannot send us private messages and similar to the way that we do not receive email notification when an ignored individual posts to a thread that we are subscribed to.

Justin was asked to look into this. I don't know if he had an opportunity to do so before he left. I will send a note to Patrick and ask him if the ignore feature can be extended to include quotes of ignored individuals.

Thank you for your patience as we work through this inconvenience.:)

dragon1952

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

Dragon... I kind of think Bike makes a valid point in that respect. I belong to several forums which completely disallow emoticons of any kind simply because they feel that we are intelligent enough to convey what we mean without resorting to such.

Leave it to 4Chan, MySpace, and YouTube for the endless onslaught of "LOL"'s, "STFU"'s, and "GrL U HaWt u RawK ;')""s. We're better than that.

:rolleyes:

zombie boy 2000

We're on the same page, Dragon. Maybe... you should take the time to read my post.



We can Hi-Five la-tor, ta-tor.

edit: or LOL or :0 or or STUF or OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!

Face

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

Leave it to 4Chan,

5 minutes there brings my attention span to a 5 year old's level.

F1nut

F1nut wrote: »

Come on, tell us what gear you have and what cables you have tried to be able to say the things you're saying. I dare you.

And still no answer.

DarqueKnight

Trolls do the questioning.
We do the answering.

You should know how this works by now.

F1nut

Just amusing myself.

Monster Jam

Ricardo wrote: »

I spent a lot of money in expensive cables, and now there are a couple of people that say there's no scientific proof that they sound better??

I hate you guys. And I'm going to talk with my lawyer about this.

LOL - Glenn Lerner is the way to go, dial 977-15 oh oh.

(This thread hasn't been closed yet?! I'm shocked! )

BlueFox

Monster Jam wrote: »

(This thread hasn't been closed yet?! I'm shocked! )

Why should it be? Are we now censoring stupidity and ignorance?

dkg999

Wow, that's 15 minutes I won't get back! It's a good thing the audiophile air I pump into my listening room compensates for what my cables may lack by making the molecules in the air more fluid which makes my highs more silky and provides greater weight to my bass.

Cpyder

DarqueNight, I know you can't read this, maybe someone can quote this. I find it funny that you place people who disagree with you on your ignore list. I may not share similar ideas as you, but you will see I have not been insulting or childish in this whole debate. My points have been valid. I just find it entertaining that you come to a forum and when people don't agree with you, you ignore them. Is that called open discussion? Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want off your ignore list. I kind of like the attention.

kevhed72

Moderators...what happened to my request for circus music???

Cpyder

kevhed72 wrote: »

Moderators...what happened to my request for circus music???

Maybe something that makes me feel like I'm on a carousel?

Flash21

I guess I should have said this much earlier in the thread, but I understand where the "naysayers" are coming from. I used to be in their shoes. This all sounded like snake oil of the highest degree when I began to creep into the fringes of higher end audio, especially for things like power cords.

I fully understand the request for a measurable explanation of the effects of cables on sound quality. I wish there was a rational way to approach the auditioning of cables, it would make my audio life simpler (if less amusing). However, the fact that such information does not exist does not mean it cannot exist.

When I started to try some cables, and lo and behold, I heard differences, I was actually dismayed. As a frugal Scandinavian, I hated the thought of what this was going to evidently cost me. The upshot of this is, it is a bit insulting to have people tell me that I, a skeptic myself, am merely susceptible to a "placebo effect" and/or "expectational bias". You don't know me, but I am not so simple minded and susceptible to suggestion to fall for those traps, so I do wish people would stop telling me what is wrong with my point of view.

Flash21

Or, to put it another way:

I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.
-Monty Python

rayslifecycle

Flash21 wrote: »

I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.
-Monty Python

That is an outstanding quote

Love it

AudioGenics

"The clarity is devastating. But where is
the ambiguity? Over there in a box."

lightman1

I like the smell of shoe polish.....

comfortablycurt

Flash21 wrote: »

I guess I should have said this much earlier in the thread, but I understand where the "naysayers" are coming from. I used to be in their shoes. This all sounded like snake oil of the highest degree when I began to creep into the fringes of higher end audio, especially for things like power cords.

I fully understand the request for a measurable explanation of the effects of cables on sound quality. I wish there was a rational way to approach the auditioning of cables, it would make my audio life simpler (if less amusing). However, the fact that such information does not exist does not mean it cannot exist.

When I started to try some cables, and lo and behold, I heard differences, I was actually dismayed. As a frugal Scandinavian, I hated the thought of what this was going to evidently cost me. The upshot of this is, it is a bit insulting to have people tell me that I, a skeptic myself, am merely susceptible to a "placebo effect" and/or "expectational bias". You don't know me, but I am not so simple minded and susceptible to suggestion to fall for those traps, so I do wish people would stop telling me what is wrong with my point of view.

Exactly. I was a skeptic on the cable subject for a while myself. I didn't see how it was possible for cables to make a difference. I figured that a cable was a cable, and as long as it was shielded, and capable of transferring a signal, it was all I'd ever need.

I was using some lower end Monster IC's for quite a while...they're shielded, and of decent build quality...I didn't see why I'd ever need to get different cables. Then I won an AQ Black Mamba IC in a Karma from Mike Reeter on here...threw it into my system, and low and behold, I heard a difference.

I honestly wasn't expecting to hear any differences with it. I figured I'd put it in my system, hear no differences and just throw it back up for Karma.

Well, it's still in my rig, and I've since tried some other cables. Each of them having very different, distinctive sound qualities.

The fact that there is no "proof", means absolutely nothing to me. Just because there isn't a way of explaining or proving something, doesn't mean that it can't be.

You can call it a placebo effect if you want, but I don't see how it possibly could be in my situation. I didn't pay anything for the IC's, and I was anticipating hearing absolutely no differences.

If this is the placebo effect, then give me more of these placebos. They've changed the way I listen to and enjoy music.

lightman1

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Exactly. I was a skeptic on the cable subject for a while myself. I didn't see how it was possible for cables to make a difference. I figured that a cable was a cable, and as long as it was shielded, and capable of transferring a signal, it was all I'd ever need.

I was using some lower end Monster IC's for quite a while...they're shielded, and of decent build quality...I didn't see why I'd ever need to get different cables. Then I won an AQ Black Mamba IC in a Karma from Mike Reeter on here...threw it into my system, and low and behold, I heard a difference.

I honestly wasn't expecting to hear any differences with it. I figured I'd put it in my system, hear no differences and just throw it back up for Karma.

Well, it's still in my rig, and I've since tried some other cables. Each of them having very different, distinctive sound qualities.

The fact that there is no "proof", means absolutely nothing to me. Just because there isn't a way of explaining or proving something, doesn't mean that it can't be.

You can call it a placebo effect if you want, but I don't see how it possibly could be in my situation. I didn't pay anything for the IC's, and I was anticipating hearing absolutely no differences.

If this is the placebo effect, then give me more of these placebos. They've changed the way I listen to and enjoy music.

Going! GOing!!! GOING!!! GONE!!!!!! That ball landed in the next county! He hit that one with evrything he had... What a hit.........

Lemmings.....

lightman1

...attaboy Curt........

comfortablycurt

lightman1 wrote: »

Going! GOing!!! GOING!!! GONE!!!!!! That ball landed in the next county! He hit that one with evrything he had... What a hit.........

Lemmings.....

lightman1 wrote: »

...attaboy Curt........

That may be how it seems...but I'm sure the naysayers will come up with a way to say that I was biased in my comparisons...somehow.

Either that, or they'll just conveniently ignore my comment altogether.







Additionally, I'd like to call the Placebo Effect on the naysayers. You don't hear the differences in cables because you're convinced that it's impossible for cables to sound different. Due to this, any differences that you may hear, are just ignored because you refuse to accept that something can work outside the bounds of scientific measurements.

lightman1

Curt...I've never accepted the inaudible, but scientifically shown, measurements of a cable that cost 10x more than one I bought off the shelf at BB.
I am a naysayer of the $2000 IC and speaker wire sets when I get the same results, for myself, from a set of $200 IC's.
Do I hear a difference between the $5 Rat Shack and lower shelf IC's and and those $200 cables yes.

It wasn't a placebo or following the herd. but just what I heard, or not.. between those I have heard on the very same equipment.




Dick

comfortablycurt

Don't take me wrong. Not hearing the difference between a $200 cable and a $2000 cable is a bit more understandable than not hearing a difference in cables at all. The law of diminishing returns comes into play when you get to that point, and as always, synergy plays a key role.

I've never used any of the cables that people would consider to really be high end. While I definitely do hear differences between generic cables and higher quality ones, I still do have my doubts that a cable could be worth 3 grand.

As I said, I've never used/heard any cables anywhere near that price range, so for all I know, they could make a difference that justifies the price. Personally though, I'd never be able to justify spending that much on cables for my stereo. 3 grand is a good sized chunk of money, and I ain't rich...if I'm dropping that kind of coin in my rig, it's going to be on new gear...not cables.

I'm sure I'll do a lot of experimentation with cables in the future...but I doubt I'd ever spend more than $400-$500 on an IC...and even that is still far off in the future. I've got some AQ Sidewinder IC's in my rig now...and I'll probably be picking up some AQ Type 4's or AQ Slate speaker cables in the near future. After that though, I probably won't be upgrading my cables for years.

F1nut

I still do have my doubts that a cable could be worth 3 grand.

I don't.

comfortablycurt

F1nut wrote: »

I don't.

Well...I think it's safe to say that you're a bit farther down the audio path than I am.;)

As I said, I've never tried cables of that caliber before. Perhaps one day I will, and those doubts will cease to exist. I think I've got a long way to go before I even consider dropping 4 figures on cables though...lol

For all I know, they could be worth every penny.:)

cnh

All this stuff is so incredibly 'subjective' that there can be no end to this discussion...and every few weeks, it seems we have another cable thread.

For full disclosure, yes, I have heard differences between cables. But there also is a law of diminishing returns. Now that also, doesn't mean, like Reeltrouble pointed out somewhere....that minute differences to one person are not radical upgrades to someone else. And that's what makes this whole affair so confounding. When you are saying that a 1 or 2 or even 10 percent increase in super high-end cables are the cats meow...you're also saying that in relation to some pretty weighty gear that many of us will never see.

It becomes the art of the aficionado who can discern an almost perfect forgery of a Picasso from the ORIGINAL. That's the kind of discernment, in some cases, that we are talking about. And if you are able to do that, that's great.

As Curt points out there is a level of 'experience' involved here and I would argue that it also takes that 'experience' to really hear the FULL difference being talked about. I doubt that novices could 'fully' appreciate some of the more 'refined' cable nuances being alluded to..yet some could probably distinguish between certain cables and others without much requisite experience.

A good example of this is classical music. If you've NEVER heard a concert LIVE then it is very hard to tell how closely or realistic your home system is doing on an LP or good SACD recording of that concert. You have no reference point.

And it follows that the MORE reference POINTS you have the MORE discerning your abilities regarding cables will be...barring the extra problem of whether or not you 'actually' have good hearing and a musical ear? Which I really couldn't say unless I knew everyone on this site personally. Which I don't. It's quite possible some of our members don't have much of an 'ear', that doesn't mean they can't enjoy their system...but their judgment regarding such subtle nuances between cables would be suspect if they had little or no 'ear'...it seems to me...

So what am I saying. Yes, cables make a difference. No not everyone can hear all of that difference. Those with more experience can, if they have a good 'ear', hear MORE of a difference on better equipment than others who have less experience. As to what is going on...I don't have the faintest...because again, as has been pointed out the situation is MORE complex than hooking cables up to some scientific equipment and measuring them because there are human ears and experience that form part of the listening chain.

Consistency in distinguishing a cable from another in a double blind test is NOT the be all and end all of proving a difference is or is NOT there! Again....too many variables in the pot for such simple-minded science.

I used to run scientific experiments and design them in a psych lab years ago. What I learned from that experience was that it is VERY difficult to design a good experiment it is difficult if not impossible to control for all the extraneous variables and the BEST METHODOLOGICAL DESIGNS produce the LEAST INFORMATIVE and LEAST generalizable data. The tighter the design the less you can say about the REAL WORLD and REAL PEOPLE!

Many Psych Journal articles are quite trite and irrelevant. But great DESIGNS!

cnh

DarqueKnight

cnh wrote: »

Consistency in distinguishing a cable from another in a double blind test is NOT the be all and end all of proving a difference is or is NOT there!

Maybe not, but it's all the naysayers have. Hence, the basic tenets of naysayer reasoning:

"1. I tried something and it didn't work. Therefore, it can't possibly work for anyone else. Anyone who claims it does is delusional.

2. I never tried something, but I don't see how it could possibly work. Therefore, anyone who claims it works is delusional.

3. I don't believe that something works. However, I am willing to accept that it works if someone successfully passes a test held under grossly unrealistic and unfair conditions. Anyone who refuses to submit to such testing is afraid of being exposed as a delusional fraud."

DBT proponents love to point out their wide application in pharmaceutical trials, all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that drug effects and the subjective perception of music are completely unrelated phenomena.

Then there is the tired old standby argument:"People distinguish between speakers in DBT's, why can't they do it for cables, amps, and source components?"

This conveniently, or more likely ignorantly, overlooks the fact that loudspeakers have coloration, noise and distortion that are orders of magnitude above that of any electronic component. Loudspeakers, more than any other audio component, each have a distinctive "voice" and it is as easy to audibly differentiate between them as it is to differentiate between the voices of two different people.

However, in the case of different speakers in the same model series by the same manufacturer, (e.g. differentiating among several large SDA's) such audible differentiation would be difficult under DBT conditions because speakers in the same series typically differ only by size and number of drivers. They all have the same sonic signature.

Whereas picking out two loudspeakers in a DBT is analogous to discerning between the voices of two different people, distinguishing between two amps, cables or source components is more analogous to discerning between the voices of two identical twins. The differences are there, but they may or may not be perceptible during the relatively short duration of a DBT.

cnh wrote: »

Again....too many variables in the pot for such simple-minded science.

Apparently, simple-minded science is the only science that simple-minded naysayers can grasp.

cnh wrote: »

I used to run scientific experiments and design them in a psych lab years ago. What I learned from that experience was that it is VERY difficult to design a good experiment it is difficult if not impossible to control for all the extraneous variables and the BEST METHODOLOGICAL DESIGNS produce the LEAST INFORMATIVE and LEAST generalizable data. The tighter the design the less you can say about the REAL WORLD and REAL PEOPLE!

Many Psych Journal articles are quite trite and irrelevant. But great DESIGNS!

Unfortunately, these types of tests are very impressive and influential to the simple-minded. So sad.

Matt34

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Maybe not, but it's all the naysayers have. Hence, the basic tenets of naysayer reasoning:

"1. I tried something and it didn't work. Therefore, it can't possibly work for anyone else. Anyone who claims it does is delusional.

2. I never tried something, but I don't see how it could possibly work. Therefore, anyone who claims it works is delusional.

3. I don't believe that something works. However, I am willing to accept that it works if someone successfully passes a test held under grossly unrealistic and unfair conditions. Anyone who refuses to submit to such testing is afraid of being exposed as a delusional fraud."

DBT proponents love to point out their wide application in pharmaceutical trials, all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that drug effects and the subjective perception of music are completely unrelated phenomena.

Then there is the tired old standby argument:"People distinguish between speakers in DBT's, why can't they do it for cables, amps, and source components?"

This conveniently, or more likely ignorantly, overlooks the fact that loudspeakers have coloration, noise and distortion that are orders of magnitude above that of any electronic component. Loudspeakers, more than any other audio component, each have a distinctive "voice" and it is as easy to audibly differentiate between them as it is to differentiate between the voices of two different people.

However, in the case of different speakers in the same model series by the same manufacturer, (e.g. differentiating among several large SDA's) such audible differentiation would be difficult under DBT conditions because speakers in the same series typically differ only by size and number of drivers. They all have the same sonic signature.

Whereas picking out two loudspeakers in a DBT is analogous to discerning between the voices of two different people, distinguishing between two amps, cables or source components is more analogous to discerning between the voices of two identical twins. The differences are there, but they may or may not be perceptible during the relatively short duration of a DBT.



Apparently, simple-minded science is the only science that simple-minded naysayers can grasp.



Unfortunately, these types of tests are very impressive and influential to the simple-minded. So sad.

So you think the extensive studies by Dr. Toole on human audio perception is simple-minded science? DBT is quick changing because it has been shown that acute audio memory is not as good as we would like to believe. I agree specifications are not the end all be all but if your serious about this hobby you can't ignore years of research into the limits of human audio perception either. Even self proclaimed "golden ears" have limitations that can be shown through these studies.

Whereas picking out two loudspeakers in a DBT is analogous to discerning between the voices of two different people, distinguishing between two amps, cables or source components is more analogous to discerning between the voices of two identical twins. The differences are there, but they may or may not be perceptible during the relatively short duration of a DBT.

The human brain is best at making sense out of nonsense. Humans tend to find differences and distinctions whether they exist or not. The research of Richard M. Warren, Diana Deutsch, and others, confirms that humans can decipher a word obscured by noise as much as a minute after a sentence was spoken. This same potential can, at times, create the wrong word. We can misunderstand and still believe firmly we heard a word different than the one spoken. This is not a defect. It allowed our ancestors to survive by detecting threats through noise. Sometimes they overreacted and called out defences when no mastodon approached. This did no harm.

My claim is that you, the golden ear, cannot ask me to believe you without tests controlled by modern science. The double-blind criteria is far more rigorous. I, too, cannot ask you to believe me without such evidence. It is the nature of the statistics, for it to be far easier for you to obtain proof you heard something than for me to prove you did not.